No holy water

[Sir_Knight]

ALL of our holy water fonts were empty today. I know that this is the case on Good Friday but is there a church reason for that happening today? Did other churches have holy water today?

 

[puzzleannie]

no. before the 4th Sunday of Lent, or day specified by your bishop, this is a DIY thing, not a universal Church thing

 

[Rolltide]

Do a search on other threads. I know that this has been discussed before. Although it is a common tradition, it is not actually permitted. Someone posted a link to the document in which this practice was banned. Sacramentals are supposed to be MORE available during Lent, not LESS available.

 

[tee_eff_em]

no. before the 4th Sunday of Lent, or day specified by your bishop, this is a DIY thing, not a universal Church thing

I think even after the 4th Sunday of Lent would be a DIY thing, no? Even emptying the fonts between the Mass of the Lord’s Supper and the Easter Vigil is, I think, a pious custom – Indeed, I do not believe there is any *requirement *to have holy water beyond the baptismal font in a church, but pious custom all around.

But I am willing to be corrected on the matter.

(Obedience to one’s bishop or other lawful superior is, of course, another matter)

tee

 

[Scottgun]

Abuse plain and simple. And a bad one in particular because it is forcing an involuntary fast from sacramentals.

 

[Rolltide]

And here’s the definitive answer:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/holy_water_fonts_and_lent.htm

Holy Water Fonts and Lent

While the holy water fonts are emptied from the Mass of the Lord’s Supper until they are refilled with water blessed at the Easter Vigil, they should not be emptied prior to Holy Thursday. The following letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments rejects this practice. Note the strong bias (reason 1) against inventing practices not called for in the liturgical law. Forcibly rejected is the argument used by some to justify their abuses that “It is not forbidden, so I can do it.” In reality, no one may do in that liturgy that which is not prescribed by the Church, specifically the Apostolic See, who alone has authority over it (SC 22, canon 838.

CONGREGATION DE CULTU DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM

Prot. N. 569/00/L Dear Father:

March 14, 2000

This Congregation for Divine Worship has received your letter sent by fax in which you ask whether it is in accord with liturgical law to remove the Holy Water from the fonts for the duration of the season of Lent.

This Dicastery is able to respond that the removing of Holy Water from the fonts during the season of Lent is not permitted, in particular, for two reasons:

1. The liturgical legislation in force does not foresee this innovation, which in addition to being praeter legem is contrary to a balanced understanding of the season of Lent, which though truly being a season of penance, is also a season rich in the symbolism of water and baptism, constantly evoked in liturgical texts.

2. The encouragement of the Church that the faithful avail themselves frequently of the [sic] of her sacraments and sacramentals is to be understood to apply also to the season of Lent. The "fast" and "abstinence" which the faithful embrace in this season does not extend to abstaining from the sacraments or sacramentals of the Church. The practice of the Church has been to empty the Holy Water fonts on the days of the Sacred Triduum in preparation of the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil, and it corresponds to those days on which the Eucharist is not celebrated (i.e., Good Friday and Holy Saturday).

Hoping that this resolves the question and with every good wish and kind regard, I am,

Sincerely yours in Christ, [signed]

Mons. Mario Marini Undersecretary

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I think even after the 4th Sunday of Lent would be a DIY thing, no? Even emptying the fonts between the Mass of the Lord’s Supper and the Easter Vigil is, I think, a pious custom – Indeed, I do not believe there is any *requirement *to have holy water beyond the baptismal font in a church, but pious custom all around.

But I am willing to be corrected on the matter.

(Obedience to one’s bishop or other lawful superior is, of course, another matter)

tee

Not true.

It is written - perhaps in the Sacramentary, although I can’t remember if that is the exact place - that they are to be emptied for Good Friday until after the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil.

To keep the water in this case would truly be an abuse.

As others have well documented, it is not licit to remove it at any other time.

 

[Phemie]

Not true.

It is written - perhaps in the Sacramentary, although I can’t remember if that is the exact place - that they are to be emptied for Good Friday until after the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil.

To keep the water in this case would truly be an abuse.

As others have well documented, it is not licit to remove it at any other time.

It’s not in the Sacramentary but in Paschales Solemnitatis “Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts” published by Congregation for Divine Worship, Feb 20, 1988.

 

[AngelRose81]

Ours is empty…because I think its broken actually (gotta get that fixed before Easter Vigil!!)…so we’ve got a really pretty cut glass bowl inside the font with the holy water in it.

Last year I remember that ours was empty during all of lent and so was our Cathedral’s but neither has been so far.

 

[WavyGravy]

ALL of our holy water fonts were empty today. I know that this is the case on Good Friday but is there a church reason for that happening today? Did other churches have holy water today?

As others have pointed out, it’s wrong to drain the fonts, except as allowed by the Church.

For several years when the paster couldn’t have cared any less and the lay liturgical “experts” ran free, I would re-fill the fonts on Saturday morning from my own stock. The fonts are difficult to drain and after the second week of Lent they would stop emptying them. With our new pastor they stay filled.

Before my time the fonts would be filled with sand and people would use them as ashtrays. Or they would fill them with marbles and the kiddies would help themselves.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

As others have pointed out, it’s wrong to drain the fonts, except as allowed by the Church.

For several years when the paster couldn’t have cared any less and the lay liturgical “experts” ran free, I would re-fill the fonts on Saturday morning from my own stock. The fonts are difficult to drain and after the second week of Lent they would stop emptying them. With our new pastor they stay filled.

Before my time the fonts would be filled with sand and people would use them as ashtrays. Or they would fill them with marbles and the kiddies would help themselves.

So you decided to play “liturgical expert” too, look up some things online, and use your new found knowledge to usurp what a committee or person took time to do trying to make a difference?

Sure, they were wrong - out of ignorance. But they were trying. You came along like a wrecking ball with something to prove. You had no right to do that. You would have been better off to complain to the bishop or pastor if you really saw something wrong.

 

[WavyGravy]

So you decided to play “liturgical expert” too, look up some things online, and use your new found knowledge to usurp what a committee or person took time to do trying to make a difference?

Nope. As one of the sacristans (Sat./Sun.) at my parish I made sure the fonts were full. When the “lay liturgical experts” confronted me (we all were aware of what the Church actually directs), I simply told them to have Father contact on the matter. He never did of course and they just got angrier and angrier before they stopped. FWIW, that “committee” had no authority to direct me to do anything.

Sure, they were wrong - out of ignorance. But they were trying. You came along like a wrecking ball with something to prove. You had no right to do that. You would have been better off to complain to the bishop or pastor if you really saw something wrong.

Nope again. They clearly knew it was wrong – we all had the documentation, but they were taking advantage of a very apathetic pastor. They chose to impart their own tastes in defiance of the Church. I clearly did the right thing and had the authority to do the right thing – sacristan or not, as long as it was valid holy water. Now, had the pastor told me to stop, that would have been different.

 

[THurifer2]

So you decided to play “liturgical expert” too, look up some things online, and use your new found knowledge .

Not unlike a seminar course that covers a weekend of “intense” training.

You would have been better off to complain to the bishop or pastor if you really saw something wrong.

I thought we were supposed to go to the Liturgist first? Aren’t they part of the Heirarchy?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Not unlike a seminar course that covers a weekend of “intense” training.

Or the “pretend priest” classes that you took?

I thought we were supposed to go to the Liturgist first? Aren’t they part of the Heirarchy?

I never actually said “part of the hierarchy.” I said that liturgists serve as appointed people of the pastor/bishop. And if one disagrees with a liturgist, naturally, the next appeal is to their boss.

 

[jmcrae]

ALL of our holy water fonts were empty today. I know that this is the case on Good Friday but is there a church reason for that happening today? Did other churches have holy water today?

Both of mine had Holy Water. As far as I know, they are supposed to remain filled from the Blessing of the Water at the Easter Vigil until the end of the next year’s Holy Thursday Mass, when the altars are stripped in preparation for Good Friday.

 

[THurifer2]

I never actually said “part of the hierarchy.” I said that liturgists serve as appointed people of the pastor/bishop. And if one disagrees with a liturgist, naturally, the next appeal is to their boss.

Or the “pretend priest” classes that you took?

The “pretend priest” class I am taking will yield a masters degree in pastoral theology…

But then again I didn’t introduce myself to this forum giving the impression that I am an expert now did I…

I am sorry you have problems with permanent deacons.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

A church I went to used to plant cacti in the holy water fonts during Lent.

Let me tell you, that was a hurtful reminder on the first Sunday of Lent.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Not true.

It is written - perhaps in the Sacramentary, although I can’t remember if that is the exact place - that they are to be emptied for Good Friday until after the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil.

To keep the water in this case would truly be an abuse.

As others have well documented, it is not licit to remove it at any other time.

As I say, I do not even find instruction to remove it at this time, only pious practice (But I have only an old Sacramentary at hand – Perhaps it is in the *Rituale Romanum *or other work?)

At the end of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord’s Supper it says: “Then the altar is stripped and, if possible, the crosses are removed from the church. It is desireable to cover any crosses which remain in the church.” No mention of water.

During the Easter Vigil, the rubrics direct:

"[37] The priest goes with the ministers to the baptismal font, if this can be seen by the congregation. Otherwise a vessel of water is placed in the sanctuary. …]"

and then later at the end of the Liturgy of Baptism:

"[48] …] If the blessing of the baptismal water does not take place in the baptistery, the ministers reverently carry the vessel of water to the font.
If the blessing of the font does not take place, the blessed water is put in a convenient place."

Again, no mention of holy water stoops at the doors. That is all I can find that seems relevant.

tee

 

[WavyGravy]

I never actually said “part of the hierarchy.” I said that liturgists serve as appointed people of the pastor/bishop. And if one disagrees with a liturgist, naturally, the next appeal is to their boss.

No “appointed” individual has the authority to do something that doesn’t agree with what the Church tells us to do. Had they said something like “Fr. X told us to drain the fonts” my actions would have been the same. Silently questioning the veracity of their claim, I would have asked them to have the pastor call me and in the meantime, I would continue to drain them.

If the pastor called me and told me to stop draining the fonts and I couldn’t convince him otherwise, then I have three choices. Ignore the problem; elevate it to the bishop or quit. Ignoring *his *direction would not be an option, although I had seen the lay-liturgists do it on more than one occasion.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The “pretend priest” class I am taking will yield a masters degree in pastoral theology…

And the multitude of liturgy seminar style classes I have taken are each good for a credit or two of graduate credit as well, which could lead to a degree in liturgical theology if one were to pursue such action. In fact, the WEEK LONG INTENSIVE, 12 hour a day class I took (This is now about the 5th time I have corrected your erroneous assertion that it was a “WEEKEND class”) could be redeemed for several credits of credit were I to pursue such action.

But then again I didn’t introduce myself to this forum giving the impression that I am an expert now did I…

I don’t believe I ever introduced myself as an “expert”. I did introduce myself saying that I work full time in this field. The reason for this is that in my cursory reading of these boards, I came across many people who didn’t seem to have even a half hour seminar in liturgy and who were asking questions about the basics - and griping about things. I introduced myself as such not because I possess an inflated opinion of myself, but because I genuinely thought I could be a resource for people who question current trends in liturgy and often ask “Why do they do that?” Sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way.

I am sorry you have problems with permanent deacons.

To the contrary: After knowing MANY permanent deacons quite well, in general I have the utmost respect for them. I am a firm believer in the office of deacon and all the practical good I have seen it do in parishes. You are actually one of the few I’ve ever had a problem with.