No, I do NOT reject God

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How about someone with Catholic next to their name?
It seems to me that to report someone before they’ve actually said something disrespectful is premature and similar to the attacks you say that you’re against.

BTW, I’ve seen several atheists mocked and belittled here. Nobody has a monopoly on civility.
The title per se is disrespectful. Google it if you will and find out about the noble-minded people behind it. And I really think we do have a monopoly on civility. Anyway, he removes it or I report him, that’s pretty plain, right?
 
I did look up the term as I did not know what it meant…

Interestingly - I was not offended by it.

If I may suggest…given how this little side trip has pulled the thread off topic…Robert you have shown poor judgement in bringing this up on the open board. According to Matthew 18:15, you should have taken this up with biblepoe via PM…that is gone to him privately. Then, if not satisfied, you could report it to the moderators and let them handle it.

Now - can we get back to the real discussion?

Peace
James
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.
This is not necessarily true. You can still reject something, even as an unbeliever, if you believe that you would (at least in principle) reject it if it is real.

I have personally witnessed the declaration by unbelievers (though not all) that “If God says X is a sin” or “If God sends people to hell for eternity” etc., etc., etc., then “that’s not Someone I want to serve.” These people claim to not believe in God, and perhaps they truly do not, but they are explicitly admitting that they are glad that (according to their beliefs) God does not exist. If such people were saddened by what seems to them to be the lack of God’s existence, or even if they were neutral about it, it might make sense to say that they did not reject God, but merely didn’t find enough cause to believe in Him. However, the moment that they possess a certain gratitude for their unbelief, or when they actively desire to disbelieve in God, their unbelief is no longer passive. It is something that, at the very least, they prefer. And to prefer that God not exist is to reject Him.

In other words, to say “I don’t believe in this religion, but if it was true I would be either happy or at least unoffended by this reality,” is to indeed have a case (even though there might still be holes in that case) for saying “I do not reject God, but merely don’t believe.” However, if you say “I don’t believe in this religion, and I’m actually somewhat relieved that it isn’t true, and if it were true then its god would be guilty of injustice” or anything of the sort, would be to reject God. That you only believe Him to be a concept is irrelevant, because in that scenario the difference between rejecting “God the concept” and “God the Being” is nothing but a formality.

Witness the following:
And this is the major stumbling block. Believers refuse to agree that a “horrible act” for humans is equally “horrible” for God. Of course this is called the fallacy of special pleading - and as such it is an impediment of being avle to reach over the “fence” toward the other. Whose fault is it?
It’s good that this statement came up in this very thread, because often when people make a similar statement (though maybe you yourself didn’t mean the same thing as they do 🙂 ) it’s an example of what I’m talking about. Such a statement is often not a mere statement of disbelief, but is a value judgment: “If this god exists, he doesn’t have any legitimate authority to do anything people shouldn’t do. Therefore to call Him good and just despite action X, Y, and Z on God’s part is false.” That statement is an opinion, not a fact. One who states such an opinion is not merely withholding belief in God, but is making a statement about what he would think of God even if He did believe in God (in this case, that his rights and authority do not exceed that of humans). At that point, the unbeliever is, whether he realizes it or not, rejecting such a god, not merely being an “unconvinced bystander.”

A person who was merely unconvinced of God’s existence would be someone who asserts that he has no problems with God’s character or God’s right to rule and make the laws He does, but is merely unconvinced of His existence. I have met very few people like this, personally. At the very least, many unbelievers I know show at least a hint of disdain for God’s right to impose certain morals they don’t like should He (“hypothetically” in their point of view) exist. Rarely do I meet such an unbeliever who accepts that God has a right to rule simply because He is God, because without Him we wouldn’t exist in the first place and therefore He has a right to define the terms, purpose, and condition of our existence.

Now some atheists might say “But even a person who would reject this god hypothetically would still choose him if they knew that he was real and thus Hell was the alternative.” But that means that they would not really be choosing God out of any sense of love or loyalty to their Creator, but only out of fear of Hell. They still reject God in principle, they’d just begrudgingly accept His rule if Hell was the alternative. And only someone incredibly stupid or incredibly spiteful of God would still reject His rule then. And while God CAN be merciful even to people whose only motives for accepting His reign are fear of hell, such an extravagant mercy (a mercy that is completely unmerited in the first place) is offered only (to my knowledge) through the sacrament of penance–which is only possible in this life, and only a believing Catholic/Orthodox would be capable of obtaining it (since only by truly believing in the Sacrament of Confession and its necessity can one meet the requirements for its validity).

Actually, it could in fact be argued that even a person who doesn’t object to God’s right to rule, a person who merely withholds belief until he has found a convincing case to believe, is still rejecting God from at least a certain point of view, but what I’ve mentioned so far is enough to chew over for the time being, so this latest point–if I do delve into it–will have to wait for a later post, if the interest is there.

I hope this makes sense, and doesn’t sound like incoherent rambling. 😊 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Interesting take.

However, I think one should keep in mind that one can trust another person (in the sense that he/she thinks the other person is sincere) yet still disagree with the other person. Person A can be fully convinced that person B is sincere about her belief in a god yet not believe in a god himself/herself, but the same doesn’t really apply to the blind date. That’s one of the few problems with the excellent analogy I stole from the video.
Yes - I can agree with this…analogies are always limited and I am really impressed at how neatly this one has been used…without too much “tearing apart”. Says something for the strength of it.

I think that there is yet another aspect to add to the mix here besides sincerity - - intelligence/education.
It might be easy to set aside the simple arguments of some people. You don’t doubt their sincerity…but they don’t really garner a lot of respect as a 'debater" either.
Then there are people, highly educated and intelligent who firmly believe - or don’t believe.
THESE are the people not so easy to dismiss. Their arguments are well put, on point and charitable, they command respect, even admiration from those they speak to.
These kinds of people (and we are blessed with many here) are the ones who should be delving into just what it is that the other is believes. Peeling away the layers as it were of various misconceptions and diversions to get to the core principles.

I wish I were better at it…I love reading some of these kinds of things but can never seem to really express it myself…I’m one of the simple folk…friendly…but simple…👍

Peace
James
 
Says the guy/gal with “none” next to “religion”. Try again. “None” is not disrespectful, the other term is.
No need to try again. ‘Pastafarian’ is just a silly nonsense word. The only one giving it any sort of power to offend is you.
 
I remember that game being called “telegraph” but yes it is very true and very hilarious.
That said, I think that these things speak to the need for patience on the part of all…
Patience is always commendable. But clarity is also very important. 🙂
Yet - sticking more closely to the analogy - Theresa could provide reasonable explanations why Gloria did not respond that Anthony might reject because he has already taken the position of non-belief…
If she can, then why does not she? That is what I was alluding to when I brought up a few of those incredible cop-outs I have seen on these (and similar) boards.

And the presumption that Anthony would reject Gloria, even if she actually manifested herself (because he already decided) is not a good argument. The basic situation is that Theresa wishes to “hook up” Anthony with Gloria, but she “overplayed” her hand. Her “selling pitch” was unbelievable, and as such Anthony wishes to have first hand experience. Nothing illogical about this approach.
 
This is not necessarily true. You can still reject something, even as an unbeliever, if you believe that you would (at least in principle) reject it if it is real.

I have personally witnessed the declaration by unbelievers (though not all) that “If God says X is a sin” or “If God sends people to hell for eternity” etc., etc., etc., then “that’s not Someone I want to serve.” These people claim to not believe in God, and perhaps they truly do not, but they are explicitly admitting that they are glad that (according to their beliefs) God does not exist.
Nevertheless it is still just a conditional. It also presumes that the description of God is accurate. These people reject the validity of the arguments.

Now, IF those arguments would turn out to be correct, then they might actually reject God, and explicitly say that they do not wish to have anything to do with him. But without such a turn of events, they only reject the concept, not the referent.
 
Nevertheless it is still just a conditional. It also presumes that the description of God is accurate. These people reject the validity of the arguments.

Now, IF those arguments would turn out to be correct, then they might actually reject God, and explicitly say that they do not wish to have anything to do with him. But without such a turn of events, they only reject the concept, not the referent.
That’s only a semantic difference. These people may reject the validity of the arguments, but that makes no difference: In the case such as I described, these people have said that IF such a God existed, they reject such a God. The “IF” is the only thing that makes their statement conditional as you say. Well, if, then, He does exist, that conditional “if” is met, meaning that they do reject Him. Obviously, if they’re right and there is no God, they are only rejecting a concept, but the whole point here is that if there is a God Who matches any of the conceptual details for which they say they would reject God, then to reject the concept is to reject the reality, even if they don’t realize that the reality is there. Because then, whether they realize it or not, the concept and the reality are identical, and one cannot be rejected without rejecting the other.

To reject the concept is to reject the reality if the reality so happens to fit the the concept you reject, even if you didn’t know it at the time. Otherwise there would be no point in even stating that you rejected the concept. To say any equivalent of “If God exists, He has no right to do X,Y,Z” is a direct admission that you reject Him or His authority IF He exists. If, then, He ends up existing, to say “I didn’t know you existed” would be merely a copout, since the conceptual God you rejected was identical to the God Who Exists (whether perfectly or in some detail or other that you very unequivocally rejected) and the only difference that would be prompting you to change your mind would be that you happened to be wrong on whether or not this God you have rejected exists or not.

Again, understand that I am not talking about an Atheist who has no problem with God in theory but just doesn’t believe He exists. I’m talking about an Atheist Who very much has a problem even with the very concept of God, such that even if He looks at the Bible and Church teaching as fiction, he rejects that “God the character” is good even in the context of the story. I have witnessed many such unbelievers, and in my experience the sorts of unbelievers who think “The God character in Catholicism is 100% good as far as I can see, as characters go, I just don’t happen to believe He exists” seem rare. But again, this rarer sort of unbeliever would be the only sort who might have a valid claim that they do not reject God, but merely remain unconvinced of His existence.

Note: I am also not talking about Atheists who reject some concept of God but misunderstand that concept–I speak here only of those have a clear understanding of Him as doing and requiring just what the Catholic Church believes He does and requires, but who reject one or more of those actions or laws by saying it is incompatible with a good, loving, and perfect God.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Patience is always commendable. But clarity is also very important. 🙂
Amen to this…Clarity seems to be a stumbling block though when the worldviews are so different…
For example…clarity can be difficult for a Phd in quantum mechanics trying to explain things to a “ditch digger”…(no offense intended)…Their views and understandings are just so different…
If she can, then why does not she? That is what I was alluding to when I brought up a few of those incredible cop-outs I have seen on these (and similar) boards.
The problem becomes one of theresa believing that she HAS explained clearly and she cannot understand why Anthony “refuses” to accept her very clear explanations.

As a very simple example…
Many years ago my wife and I were driving through town and stopped at a red light. Looking over at the bridal shop I commented on a pretty bridesmaid dress, “Isn’t that a pretty blue dress?” My wife looked over and said, “Yes - but it’s green, not blue”. I looked again - by golly it was blue…we went back and forth for a bit until it dawned on me…We were both wearing sunglasses and they were different tints. Mine made the dress look blue and hers made it look green. It was actually neither (though I forget now what is really was…).
So our different views…through different lenses…prevented us from seeing the actuality of what was there…We were each sure of our position and positive that we were being clear in expressing ourselves and could not understand why the other could not SEE that we were right.
And the presumption that Anthony would reject Gloria, even if she actually manifested herself (because he already decided) is not a good argument. The basic situation is that Theresa wishes to “hook up” Anthony with Gloria, but she “overplayed” her hand. Her “selling pitch” was unbelievable, and as such Anthony wishes to have first hand experience. Nothing illogical about this approach.
I agree that there is nothing illogical about the approach.
But if we take my little example above and apply it to our analogy…lets’ say that Theresa tells Anthony that she has just left Gloria at the coffee shop and she is anxious to meet him. If he will come over, he’'ll find here there, on the patio, wearing a green dress. Anthony comes over but the only woman there is wearing a blue dress…he goes away disappointed because Gloria failed…she was not there when she said she would be…
BUT - as it turns out, Theresa was wearing green tinted sunglasses when she described Gloria to you, and yo were wearing blue tinted sunglasses when you showed up. In fact, Gloria was there the whole time in a cream colored dress.

About the best that any of us can do is to keep trying to find good ways to understand each other…and to have patience as we move along.

Peace
James
 
These people may reject the validity of the arguments, but that makes no difference: In the case such as I described, these people have said that IF such a God existed, they reject such a God.
This is incorrectly stated. The correct way WOULD BE: " IF such a God existed, they WOULD reject such a God." And since they see no reason accept that God would be there at all, and much less that God would be like the apologist represeted him, the skeptic does not reject God, but WOULD reject him IF… The difference is much more serious than simply sematical.
 
The problem becomes one of theresa believing that she HAS explained clearly and she cannot understand why Anthony “refuses” to accept her very clear explanations.
At this point it is hard to stay within the framework of the analogy. What did Theresa “mess up”? I could quote a lot of dubious “explanations” pertaining to God’s features - many of them contradicting each other.
But if we take my little example above and apply it to our analogy…lets’ say that Theresa tells Anthony that she has just left Gloria at the coffee shop and she is anxious to meet him. If he will come over, he’'ll find here there, on the patio, wearing a green dress. Anthony comes over but the only woman there is wearing a blue dress…he goes away disappointed because Gloria failed…she was not there when she said she would be…
BUT - as it turns out, Theresa was wearing green tinted sunglasses when she described Gloria to you, and yo were wearing blue tinted sunglasses when you showed up. In fact, Gloria was there the whole time in a cream colored dress.
Pretty cool 🙂 I like it a lot… but the story should not stop here. Indeed it is quite possible to make an uninteded mistake when someone relies of the one and only “distant sense of perception” the “eye”. Let’s remember confusing the mirage with a lake in the distance.

But no one can mistake a kick in the stomach for a gentle caress, or a loud trumpet for a quiet flute. The point is that if Gloria really wishes to meet Anthony, then she can just walk up to him, and introduce herself. There is no need to rely on some third person, who might make an honest mistake. And this pertains to both the analogy and the original scenario.
 
Discuss the topic, not each other.

Otherwise thread will be closed.
 
This is incorrectly stated. The correct way WOULD BE: " IF such a God existed, they WOULD reject such a God." And since they see no reason accept that God would be there at all, and much less that God would be like the apologist represeted him, the skeptic does not reject God, but WOULD reject him IF… The difference is much more serious than simply sematical.
From the perspective of general theism, it also raises the question of what God’s true nature is. In other words, let’s say a Catholic is told by believer “X” that God teaches that cruelty is strength, and that strength is the only good. The Catholic would permit himself to say, “not only do I not believe this but, if such a God existed, I would reject serving such a God. It is a meaningless hypothetical, however, because I do not believe that such a God exists. That’s not God – that’s the devil.”

This is all the non-believer is saying, when he says, “If such a God existed, I would reject such a God…” Most frequently, he says this in relation to the doctrine of hell – indeed, because he find evidence of human cruelty in that doctrine.

A Catholic could say, “yes, you are right in rejecting cruelty” – cruelty is not in the nature of God – yet then try to convince him that hell is not a cruel doctrine… If the non-believer is unconvinced, he is unconvinced, but ironically is not rejecting God, but the false notion of a cruel God (a straw man of God). A Catholic could say, “yes, I would reject a cruel God as well! But God is not cruel.”

Many Catholics have grappled with the doctrine of hell, and many Christians have rejected it (Universalists, for example, and even some wayward Catholics). So it raises the further question, does a Christian who rejects the doctrine of hell, thereby reject God?

I know few atheists who would say that if God were truly all loving, with benevolent concern for his creatures, they would reject Him. It is simply that the arguments given in favor of God’s goodness – “suffering exists because we have free will”; “hell exists because God is just, and because we have free will” – do not convince them. But they do not say, “I reject your loving God; I will only accept a God of hatred and cruelty. In fact, I like your devil a lot more!” It’s obvious that they don’t perceive the God as described by orthodox Christianity, to be perfectly loving (and, again, many Catholics struggle with this themselves, and many non-Catholic Christians reject the doctrine of hell, for this very reason). A Catholic can legitimately ask, I think, whether the non-believer is not rejecting God at all, but rejecting a straw man (in other words, ascribing the non-believer’s rejection of God to a simple confusion regarding God’s nature).
 
This is incorrectly stated. The correct way WOULD BE: " IF such a God existed, they WOULD reject such a God." And since they see no reason accept that God would be there at all, and much less that God would be like the apologist represeted him, the skeptic does not reject God, but WOULD reject him IF… The difference is much more serious than simply sematical.
But what is this “WOULD” contingent on? It is continent, as you say, on such a God existing. So, IF such a God exists, whether the atheist realizes He exists or not (because God’s existence or non-existence is not contingent upon whether we believe in Him or not), then the conditions for the “WOULD” of which you speak have been met, and the atheist has been rejecting such a God all along.
From the perspective of general theism, it also raises the question of what God’s true nature is. In other words, let’s say a Catholic is told by believer “X” that God teaches that cruelty is strength, and that strength is the only good. The Catholic would permit himself to say, “not only do I not believe this but, if such a God existed, I would reject serving such a God. It is a meaningless hypothetical, however, because I do not believe that such a God exists. That’s not God – that’s the devil.”

This is all the non-believer is saying, when he says, “If such a God existed, I would reject such a God…”
This makes sense. But the thing is, if I reject the concept of such a god, I admit that IF such a god exists, no matter how nonsensical I may think it is, I am indeed rejecting him in that case. For example, if someone proposed a god that was identical to Satan in every way, I reject this god in principle. I do not believe there is any such god, I do indeed think that’s nonsensical, but my thinking it is nonsensical is not the only reason for rejecting it–I have moral objections to such a god.

The thing is, if at death I find out that such a god is real, I accept the fact that in rejecting the concept of him I have rejected the reality of him. So I admit that I have rejected such a god as Satan would be; if I were only saying “I don’t think it makes any sense to believe in such a god,” that would be one thing. But the moment I have voiced a disdain for such a god even in the (possibly nonsensical to my reasoning) event that he DID exist, then I have rejected more than the argument for such a god, I have rejected the god himself IF he ends up, despite all my expectations, being real. There is nothing about finding out that he is real, by itself, that should make me change my mind–if all this time I was missing some sort of key argument that would “enlighten me” and show me that he was good after all, then that’s not what I’m talking about.

The problem isn’t that the atheists in question would reject God even if they thought He was loving. The problem is that such atheists have decided, for whatever reason, that traits God does in fact possess are NOT loving, but are instead cruel. So it’s not a matter of such an atheist having a “skewed concept of God”, but rather “Knowing what the concept of God is according to our religion, and defining that concept as unloving or cruel” which is a condition that I do not think would be inherently remedied by finding out that such a God does in fact exist. So IF, for the sake of argument, God IS perfectly within His just and loving rights with Hell, yet an atheist rejects that, I do not see how that has anything to do with a “skewed concept” on the atheists part as with a fundamentally flawed premise by which one who holds such a premise simply would not see God as good, no matter what the case may in fact be…

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
At this point it is hard to stay within the framework of the analogy. What did Theresa “mess up”? I could quote a lot of dubious “explanations” pertaining to God’s features - many of them contradicting each other.
Agreed. As good as the analogy is, it is limited. As for multiple descriptions…Well all I can say is that these can serve to clarify…they can also serve to confuse…
Pretty cool 🙂 I like it a lot…
Thanks. I was kinda…uummm…inspired…😉
but the story should not stop here. Indeed it is quite possible to make an uninteded mistake when someone relies of the one and only “distant sense of perception” the “eye”. Let’s remember confusing the mirage with a lake in the distance.
But no one can mistake a kick in the stomach for a gentle caress, or a loud trumpet for a quiet flute. The point is that if Gloria really wishes to meet Anthony, then she can just walk up to him, and introduce herself. There is no need to rely on some third person, who might make an honest mistake. And this pertains to both the analogy and the original scenario.
Of course…considering your very good point that there are a number of different and sometime contradicting descriptions of “Gloria”…It might just be possible to have such an encounter and STILL not recognize or accept that this is the Gloria that Therese was talking about…In which case, you could come away from the encounter still believing that the Gloria that Therese knows is not the same Gloria…that such a Gloria does not exist…

I dunno…I think my head is beginning to spin around a bit here…:hypno:

Peace
James
 
At this point it is hard to stay within the framework of the analogy. What did Theresa “mess up”? I could quote a lot of dubious “explanations” pertaining to God’s features - many of them contradicting each other.

Pretty cool 🙂 I like it a lot… but the story should not stop here. Indeed it is quite possible to make an uninteded mistake when someone relies of the one and only “distant sense of perception” the “eye”. Let’s remember confusing the mirage with a lake in the distance.

But no one can mistake a kick in the stomach for a gentle caress, or a loud trumpet for a quiet flute. The point is that if Gloria really wishes to meet Anthony, then she can just walk up to him, and introduce herself. There is no need to rely on some third person, who might make an honest mistake. And this pertains to both the analogy and the original scenario.
Trurl:

No He won’t, for two reasons:

1.) He has already been here and told enough people that He exists, then asked them to go out and tell the rest of the world. It is too bad that you weren’t there, but, not everyone could be.

2.) He has told us that He has an especial regard for those who believe in Him but have not seen Him. Why? Imagine intervening into your own mind each and every time you created a thought to explain to each and every word of each and every thought just why you created it and juxtaposed it as you did. God thinks and wills. He causes each and every event that takes place (I know, except “sin”). Why can’t we simply give ourselves over to His Divine Providence and receive His Love and give ours? Oh, I know: we’re just simply not convinced yet. But, really, where’s the harm in doing that?

You see, the acceptance of Him from a third party, sans any sensible provable, such as a hole in His side that you could put your hand in, is the ultimate expression of your Trust and Love in Him, derived through another creature and His Word, with whom, one day, hopefully, you will comport because of your love for that neighbor.

God bless,
jd
 
From the perspective of general theism, it also raises the question of what God’s true nature is. In other words, let’s say a Catholic is told by believer “X” that God teaches that cruelty is strength, and that strength is the only good. The Catholic would permit himself to say, “not only do I not believe this but, if such a God existed, I would reject serving such a God. It is a meaningless hypothetical, however, because I do not believe that such a God exists. That’s not God – that’s the devil.”

This is all the non-believer is saying, when he says, “If such a God existed, I would reject such a God…” Most frequently, he says this in relation to the doctrine of hell – indeed, because he find evidence of human cruelty in that doctrine.

A Catholic could say, “yes, you are right in rejecting cruelty” – cruelty is not in the nature of God – yet then try to convince him that hell is not a cruel doctrine… If the non-believer is unconvinced, he is unconvinced, but ironically is not rejecting God, but the false notion of a cruel God (a straw man of God). A Catholic could say, “yes, I would reject a cruel God as well! But God is not cruel.”

Many Catholics have grappled with the doctrine of hell, and many Christians have rejected it (Universalists, for example, and even some wayward Catholics). So it raises the further question, does a Christian who rejects the doctrine of hell, thereby reject God?

I know few atheists who would say that if God were truly all loving, with benevolent concern for his creatures, they would reject Him. It is simply that the arguments given in favor of God’s goodness – “suffering exists because we have free will”; “hell exists because God is just, and because we have free will” – do not convince them. But they do not say, “I reject your loving God; I will only accept a God of hatred and cruelty. In fact, I like your devil a lot more!” It’s obvious that they don’t perceive the God as described by orthodox Christianity, to be perfectly loving (and, again, many Catholics struggle with this themselves, and many non-Catholic Christians reject the doctrine of hell, for this very reason). A Catholic can legitimately ask, I think, whether the non-believer is not rejecting God at all, but rejecting a straw man (in other words, ascribing the non-believer’s rejection of God to a simple confusion regarding God’s nature).
Portofino:

Here’s the problem with your scenario: I think that there are too many atheists who prefer not to believe in God because they have deified themselves. It’s one thing to have a problem with the doctrine of Hell and not be happy with your settlement of the issue. It’s quite another to have a problem with God simply because He interferes with your immodest wants and clandestine desires.

I have to ask myself, “Why do they have a problem with the doctrine of Hell?” If they are not descending down that spiral staircase into it, why is it a bother? Perhaps **they are **descending that spiral staircase! It’s not for me to judge, but certainly I can ask relevant questions. Especially since, as a one time atheistic agnostic, I found it much easier to ignore Him and His daffy proscriptions. I wanted to do exactly what I wanted to do. Period. I wanted no constraints. Life was too short, I thought, and I was here to “live it to the fullest.”

God bless,
jd
 
But what is this “WOULD” contingent on? It is continent, as you say, on such a God existing.
No, I did NOT say that. It is contingent of TWO things: 1) God actually existing and 2) I must be aware of this fact. Both are needed for either acceptance of rejection.
 
Of course…considering your very good point that there are a number of different and sometime contradicting descriptions of “Gloria”…It might just be possible to have such an encounter and STILL not recognize or accept that this is the Gloria that Therese was talking about…In which case, you could come away from the encounter still believing that the Gloria that Therese knows is not the same Gloria…that such a Gloria does not exist…

I dunno…I think my head is beginning to spin around a bit here…:hypno:
No need for that “spinning”. You said it exactly as it is. (And that is why I assert that a personal manifestation is REAL solution to this problem.)
 
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