No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch [CWN]

[chimo]

Though I could not find Benedict’s statement, at least he’s realistically acknowledging that the only doctrine impeding full communion between Catholics and Eastern orthodox are the privileges of the pope over collegiality and synodality (the form of governance in the East, including, at the local level, the Catholic East).

The fact of the matter is that, starting in the Late Middle Age, the pope became rather imperial (red shoes was an exclusive privilege of the Byzantine emperors), going beyond, in degree, the historical role exercised by the patriarch of Rome.

I think that the bulk of the impediments could be dealt with in canon law, but there’d still remain a few that the Catholic Church would have to tread carefully, for they might brush with doctrine.

Given that the Catholic Church moves ever so slowly and the Eastern Orthodox Churches move even more slowly, save a miracle, it won’t be until a few centuries when the Church is one again, regrettably.

Pax Christi

I will say within a couple of generations the unity of our Churches will become established. I am going out of a limb here but the restoration of the relationship between Rome and the Orthodox will be vital to stop this insidious rejection of the Gospel that is spreading in the West. The climate of the rejection of the Gospel in the West may be a preview of what might lead us to the End but I am hopeful the Lord will help us through this by granting us the graces that will lead us together. We forget the Lord is able to do this when we have failed so many times. The circumstances of the West however will point us working together towards this unity we will need to stop this incredible denial of the Gospel. Pope John Paul II was asked once where and when will this unity begin. He quickly answered in North America especially the countries of Canada and the United States. The reason why is simply it is there where we live side by side. We can visit each other and come to know each other with much ease. This eventual unity will become a powerful voice for the rest of the world as it will again for the West. We can work now for this unity to become realized.

 

[Vaseljen]

I will say within a couple of generations the unity of our Churches will become established. I am going out of a limb here but the restoration of the relationship between Rome and the Orthodox will be vital to stop this insidious rejection of the Gospel that is spreading in the West. The climate of the rejection of the Gospel in the West may be a preview of what might lead us to the End but I am hopeful the Lord will help us through this by granting us the graces that will lead us together. We forget the Lord is able to do this when we have failed so many times. The circumstances of the West however will point us working together towards this unity we will need to stop this incredible denial of the Gospel. Pope John Paul II was asked once where and when will this unity begin. He quickly answered in North America especially the countries of Canada and the United States. The reason why is simply it is there where we live side by side. We can visit each other and come to know each other with much ease. This eventual unity will become a powerful voice for the rest of the world as it will again for the West. We can work now for this unity to become realized.

Father Thomas Hopko, Orthodox priest and famous late Orthodox theologian, who passed away last year, memory eternal, says and explains why unity is almost impossible. Also father Thomas lived and served in the USA and could visit non-Orthodox all the time.
Here is what he says:
youtube.com/watch?v=r_Y-e3RyF9s

 

[Ridgerunner]

The worst thing of all time!! Politics!!

One more reason why I hate politics…

As it may have been that, at the time it was also because of a gradual drifting apart that was happening throughout the centuries as we each became different culturally and had different ways to worship. Yet the tip of the iceberg was the Sacking of Constantinople during the Crusades during the Middle Ages.

I also want to point out the name of the united Christian Church was also simply the Catholic Church.

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church- St. Ignatius of Antioch

This was written in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans around the second century I believe. I also imagine that the Eastern Churches took the name Orthodox after the schism to differentiate from the Church of Rome. So in case reunion ever happens, we can at least keep the name!

I agree with you that it was fundamentally political, but the schism actually occurred two centuries before the sack of Constantinople. The latter was a complicated business, with enough fault for everybody involved to take a share.

Right now, though, I would say the greatest impediment to reunion is the Patriarchate of Moscow, whose adherents are far and away the greatest number of at least nominal Orthodox worldwide.

 

[chimo]

Father Thomas Hopko, Orthodox priest and famous late Orthodox theologian, who passed away last year, memory eternal, says and explains why unity is almost impossible. Also father Thomas lived and served in the USA and could visit non-Orthodox all the time.
Here is what he says:
youtube.com/watch?v=r_Y-e3RyF9s

I have great respect with Father Thomas Hopko but I do not believe he is correct in his assessment. There is good reasons why. This priest as do other Orthodox priests and Bishops do not have the time to deal with Rome. They cannot since they have other responsibilities to deal with mainly taking care of us. So you can forget about any priest or bishop for that matter. If these priests and bishops deal with the Church of Rome the same as their own, ok then there will be serious dialogue. The problem with our unity comes not from the top levels but from the bottom levels. The top brass do not have the time to do this and these contacts with Rome on any official level is not going to do this. The problem as I see this is the only group which do have the time to give to this quest of unity and it must come from us the Laity. When the Laity start to wake up and work to do what is necessary for this unity to be realized than we will have the right people who will make this incredible grace to happen. God is waiting for us the Laity to come aboard. When enough of the Laity do come aboard then some of them will become our future priests and bishops and these will be the people who will work tirelessly for this unity. We need to come aboard. Already this is happening in the Church of Rome with many of her priests learning about the Fathers of the Orthodox Church and even quoting them at certain Masses which I had attended to.

 

[Vaseljen]

I have great respect with Father Thomas Hopko but I do not believe he is correct in his assessment. There is good reasons why. This priest as do other Orthodox priests and Bishops do not have the time to deal with Rome. They cannot since they have other responsibilities to deal with mainly taking care of us. So you can forget about any priest or bishop for that matter. If these priests and bishops deal with the Church of Rome the same as their own, ok then there will be serious dialogue. The problem with our unity comes not from the top levels but from the bottom levels. The top brass do not have the time to do this and these contacts with Rome on any official level is not going to do this. The problem as I see this is the only group which do have the time to give to this quest of unity and it must come from us the Laity. When the Laity start to wake up and work to do what is necessary for this unity to be realized than we will have the right people who will make this incredible grace to happen. God is waiting for us the Laity to come aboard. When enough of the Laity do come aboard then some of them will become our future priests and bishops and these will be the people who will work tirelessly for this unity. We need to come aboard.

Don’t want to sound fanatical or something, but the laity is the one that dislikes and disagrees with Rome the most in the Orthodox Church. Truth is the laity in Eastern Europe, but that laity makes up to 90% of Orthodox population.

 

[chimo]

Don’t want to sound fanatical or something, but the laity is the one that dislikes and disagrees with Rome the most in the Orthodox Church. Truth is the laity in Eastern Europe, but that laity makes up to 90% of Orthodox population.

I am not talking about Europe here. If you had read my post I said here in the United States and Canada where these first steps towards unity will become a reality. It has to come through personal contacts and personal dialogue and personal visits and there is no place on earth better than Canada and the United States where this can happen. It has begun with Rome with many of her newest priests knowing a lot more than the previous generation and we need to step our ante to do likewise.

 

[chimo]

Don’t want to sound fanatical or something, but the laity is the one that dislikes and disagrees with Rome the most in the Orthodox Church. Truth is the laity in Eastern Europe, but that laity makes up to 90% of Orthodox population.

I would like to add that many of our peoples have already made up their mind about the Church of Rome. Perhaps you are one of them. I decided not to be one of them. I am hopeful that many of our young peoples growing up in the United States and Canada will come to discover Rome. It has to come from these people since so many have already decided not to. I believe the young person will want to know more about the truth and here in the United States and Canada they will have this advantage to seek it out more than in any other place. They will be curious about Rome and they will seek her out.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’ve been hearing that we’re almost ready for full communion with the Orthodox for some years now, but it almost always comes from Catholics. When I ask an Orthodox however, including clergy, they tend to just give me a funny look and say “uh I don’t think so”.

 

[chimo]

I’ve been hearing that we’re almost ready for full communion with the Orthodox for some years now, but it almost always comes from Catholics. When I ask an Orthodox however, including clergy, they tend to just give me a funny look and say “uh I don’t think so”.

It is because it has begun here with the Church of Rome. It needs to spread to us. When I was at the Shrine of the Holy Mother in Quebec I listened to a young Catholic priest who preached on St. Symeon the New Theologian who was an Eastern Orthodox Church Father. I was probably the only one with the priest who knew who this Saint was since I am Orthodox. The rest of us were Catholic. When I had run a combo Catholic/Orthodox bookstore i decided to have a final sale for I needed to spend time writing. There were over 10 young Catholic seminarians coming for the sale and I thought oh boy I am going to sell a lot of Catholic items to them. On the contrary what they all bought were mostly Eastern Orthodox items. The young want to learn more! You have to wait until newer young faces will turn their faces to the other Church. As of now do not expect the clergy of the Orthodox Church to give you hope. Wait until the next generations will want to discover more and then ask these same clergy. It will come because the youth are always eager to learn more.

 

[Augustine]

I agree with you that it was fundamentally political, but the schism actually occurred two centuries before the sack of Constantinople. The latter was a complicated business, with enough fault for everybody involved to take a share.

One cannot mention the sack of Constantinople and its dominion for decades by the Latins without mentioning the Massacre of the Latins by the Orthodox a couple of decades before.

The more I study about the Great Schism, the more I’m convinced that it was due, first and foremost, to mutual jealousy and envy and ambition. Theological differences, though no difference of faith, were mere window dressing for petty motivations.

Pax Christi

 

[Augustine]

The two Churches are now in, not short, process of reunion…

Yes, after, what, a millennium? Reunion between the Orthodox Churches is much easier than with the Roman Church. It will require a change in the understanding of the papacy by Rome and a change in the attitude of successive popes in practice.

As forthcoming as JPII and BXVI were, nothing comparable was reciprocated by all the Orthodox Churches, especially the Russian Orthodox Church. There just is too much bad history between the East and the West to be healed. It’ll take more time.

Pax Christi

 

[Augustine]

I will say within a couple of generations the unity of our Churches will become established.

Honestly, you seem to speak more from wishful thinking than from knowing Orthodox faithful and clergy. Though the West may have forgotten its wrongs done to the East, especially the disregard and disdain towards Eastern Catholics for centuries, resulting in much loss to them, the East has not forgotten them. Moreover, as friendly as JPII and BXVI were to the East, they still exercised the papacy in a manner historically incompatible with the first millennium, as the Orthodox understand it. Francis has done nothing but exacerbated this issue, undoing much of the progress that his immediate predecessors accomplished.

Pax Christi

 

[Vaseljen]

For example Orthodox Patriarchates are territorial, they don’t want to see bishops of the bordering Patriarchate on their territory. For example if the Russian Orthodox Church merges with Rome, all Latin and Eastern Catholic bishops must leave Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc… in order for Pope of Rome to keep communion with the Patriarch of Moscow. Is Rome ready for such sacrifice? Automatically then Rome could not keep it’s universal jurisdiction because it’s dioceses from the Orthodox jurisdictions would have to seize to exist.

There is scandal right now in the Orthodox Church, Antioch Patriarchate interrupted communion with the Jerusalem Patriarchate because Jerusalem Patriarchate created new diocese in Qatar, which Antioch claims is their jurisdiction since ancient times.

Even if we ignore theological differences, practical obstacles for the reunion are endless.

 

[ARSpade]

For example Orthodox Patriarchates are territorial, they don’t want to see bishops of the bordering Patriarchate on their territory. For example if the Russian Orthodox Church merges with Rome, all Latin and Eastern Catholic bishops must leave Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc… in order for Pope of Rome to keep communion with the Patriarch of Moscow. Is Rome ready for such sacrifice? Automatically then Rome could not keep it’s universal jurisdiction because it’s dioceses from the Orthodox jurisdictions would have to seize to exist.

Why would they have to cease to exist?

I’d assume that if the Orthodox Church came back to Rome that they’d exist in their own Rite, like all the other non-Latin rites do. And they’d handle their internal business in the same way.

Right now where I sit (near DC) I’m all at once in the territory of the Diocese of Arlington (Latin Rite, mine) under Bishop Paul Loverde, the Eparchy of St. Maron of Brooklyn (Marionite) under Eparch (Bishop) Gregory John Mansour, the Eparchy of Newton (Melkite Greek) under Eparch Nicholas James Samra, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (Anglican) under Bishop-elect Steven Lopes and a bunch of others.

I don’t see the “territory” issue as being a major issue.

 

[Ridgerunner]

One cannot mention the sack of Constantinople and its dominion for decades by the Latins without mentioning the Massacre of the Latins by the Orthodox a couple of decades before.

The more I study about the Great Schism, the more I’m convinced that it was due, first and foremost, to mutual jealousy and envy and ambition. Theological differences, though no difference of faith, were mere window dressing for petty motivations.

Pax Christi

After years of thinking otherwise, I finally did some research on the subject, and came to the same conclusion. I don’t think theological differences were anything other than an excuse to do what ambitious men wanted to do for other reasons.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Why would they have to cease to exist?

I’d assume that if the Orthodox Church came back to Rome that they’d exist in their own Rite, like all the other non-Latin rites do. And they’d handle their internal business in the same way.

Right now where I sit (near DC) I’m all at once in the territory of the Diocese of Arlington (Latin Rite, mine) under Bishop Paul Loverde, the Eparchy of St. Maron of Brooklyn (Marionite) under Eparch (Bishop) Gregory John Mansour, the Eparchy of Newton (Melkite Greek) under Eparch Nicholas James Samra, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (Anglican) under Bishop-elect Steven Lopes and a bunch of others.

I don’t see the “territory” issue as being a major issue.

It wouldn’t be in the churches you name because (I think) they’re all Catholic, and the Catholic Church is not territorial.

I think it’s different in America even with the Orthodox, where strict territoriality is impossible to maintain due to the diverse population, mobility and the sheer distastefulness of inter-church arguments over who ought to have California versus Illinois. The farther east one goes, the more different it becomes, because one really is dealing with nation states that have a more or less homogenous ethnic origin and national governments that might back their claims.

The Moscow Patriarchate does not accept as legitimate the presence of Eastern Catholics in

 

[Ridgerunner]

It wouldn’t be in the churches you name because (I think) they’re all Catholic, and the Catholic Church is not territorial.

I think it’s different in America even with the Orthodox, where strict territoriality is impossible to maintain due to the diverse population, mobility and the sheer distastefulness of inter-church arguments over who ought to have California versus Illinois. The farther east one goes, the more different it becomes, because one really is dealing with nation states that have a more or less homogenous ethnic origin and national governments that might back their claims.

 

[tomarin]

I hope that this day comes soon, when Orthodoxy is reunited to Catholicism.

Wouldn’t that be wonderful (although it’s been a long time since I considered it a real possibility).

 

[chimo]

Honestly, you seem to speak more from wishful thinking than from knowing Orthodox faithful and clergy. Though the West may have forgotten its wrongs done to the East, especially the disregard and disdain towards Eastern Catholics for centuries, resulting in much loss to them, the East has not forgotten them. Moreover, as friendly as JPII and BXVI were to the East, they still exercised the papacy in a manner historically incompatible with the first millennium, as the Orthodox understand it. Francis has done nothing but exacerbated this issue, undoing much of the progress that his immediate predecessors accomplished.

Pax Christi

We must not forget about the power of God. While it now seems to be moving very slow, remember what God had done in Russia to help that impoverish nation to find its footing in Christianity again. God had equip to that nation back into Christianity within 80 years to bring about one of the greatest conversions ever. I am not as pessimistic as most of my Orthodox brethren are. I find that the Catholic Church has a lot in her to help us. The problem with the Orthodox is they do not take the time to find out what Rome will be able to do for them. The secret in our unity lies in the knowledge we were created for each other. If we do not find out what the other can do for me sure this disunity will continue. What needs to be done is this. How can the present situation help me to understand that I can no longer go on by myself? We are actually scared even afraid to discover the other. This fear is what divides us. Pope John Paul II first words as Pope was Be Not Afraid. This must be the motive towards our unity. Don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid of what the other can be for you. In truth we are in need of each other more than ever. We need to take bold and courageous steps. We need people who will not look at the past but to see each other in the present. This is not wishful thinking but a hope what God is searching in us. I am working tirelessly in this and yet I want to give up. I too see the reckless attitudes of so many. The primary obstacle is our own stubborn attitudes. The healing of those attitudes is the power and grace which God will give to us. He doesn’t give into pride. That is why we are not united. We will not let go of this pride. God however will help us if we decide to let it go.

 

[Vaseljen]

We must not forget about the power of God. While it now seems to be moving very slow, remember what God had done in Russia to help that impoverish nation to find its footing in Christianity again. God had equip to that nation back into Christianity within 80 years to bring about one of the greatest conversions ever. I am not as pessimistic as most of my Orthodox brethren are. I find that the Catholic Church has a lot in her to help us. The problem with the Orthodox is they do not take the time to find out what Rome will be able to do for them. The secret in our unity lies in the knowledge we were created for each other. If we do not find out what the other can do for me sure this disunity will continue. What needs to be done is this. How can the present situation help me to understand that I can no longer go on by myself? We are actually scared even afraid to discover the other. This fear is what divides us. Pope John Paul II first words as Pope was Be Not Afraid. This must be the motive towards our unity. Don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid of what the other can be for you. In truth we are in need of each other more than ever. We need to take bold and courageous steps. We need people who will not look at the past but to see each other in the present. This is not wishful thinking but a hope what God is searching in us. I am working tirelessly in this and yet I want to give up. I too see the reckless attitudes of so many. The primary obstacle is our own stubborn attitudes. The healing of those attitudes is the power and grace which God will give to us. He doesn’t give into pride. That is why we are not united. We will not let go of this pride. God however will help us if we decide to let it go.

I would be careful before i say that God wishes unity of Rome and the Orthodox. We cant know that for sure. As an Orthodox Christian, it makes me wonder why did God celebrate all those latest saints, who condemned ecumenism, and plus, for example, their bodies turned out in to the non-corrupted relics. That is God’s work.
For example, saint metropolitan Philaret (ROCOR), who’s relics are blessed even with myyrh leaking threatened with anathema anyone who practices ecumenism. And that was in 1980s. So it is confusing.

“Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ’s Church is divided into so-called “branches” which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all “branches” or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!”

And i think he gathered a Council of ROCOR to proclaim this anathema, and his passed away body is now myyrh leaking. So it makes you think.