No infant Baptism unless parents take class and pay fee?

[Bruised_Reed]

I didn’t know either of my Godparents, nor did my family. My Aunt and Uncle couldn’t make it to the Church because of a snow storm, (77 years ago). Father got two other people to be my God parents. One was a funeral director, (Fr.s right hand man, I was told ). We moved away when I was very young. I never met them again.
Years later I moved back to my home town and found out my Godfather had died. At age 50 a priest got me in touch with my Godmother. What a joy to find out that she had been praying for me all these years. I also learned from a friend of his that my Godfather was a very prayerful man, (you can be assured he prayed for you and still is, she told me) and he had a very special devotion to Our Lady. Which I do too. As a kid, I always felt slighted cause I didn’t “know” my Godparents, but God in His mercy gave me the BEST. Choosing Godparents for your children is sooo important and they also need to know their responsibility as Godparents. I am sooo thankful mine did and I try to do the same for my Godchildren. Please trust the Church in Her wise decisions of instructions. I used to teach the Baptismal class and believe me to many Catholics, (parents and Godparents) do NOT understand the seriousness of it. Don’t we want the best for our children? God Bless, Memaw

Didn’t the Church allow godparents by proxy then?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Where your money lies, there your heart lies also…

Why is it that people who have jobs would scream bloody murder if there boss shorted them $5 in a paycheck, yet somehow think Priests should work for free…

Btw-There should never be a mandatory fee for a Sacrament, but like anything else in life, if something brings us value, it is appropriate to compensate the one providing it.

I have no problem with a priest or pastor drawing a paycheck from the church.

I DO have a problem with charging fees for sacraments. That is wrong, and not biblical.

 

[Memaw]

Didn’t the Church allow godparents by proxy then?

I imagine it did but that takes time and the other two were there at the time and evidently my parents agreed. (I don’t remember a thing about it) And I am sooo thankful as the couple that were supposed to be my Godparents weren’t exactly strong Catholics later on. I have talked to the son of my Godfather and he is very faithful too. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

The four close parishes near me all attempted to charge me 150 dollars to baptize my daughter. I told them I was poor. They agreed to lower the fee to 50 dollars.

I still refused to pay, I won’t pay for any sacrament.

This short recap cannot be an accurate assessment of the practice of four parishes if those parishes were Catholic.

Simony is a deliberate intention of buying or selling for a temporal price such things as are spiritual or annexed unto spirituals. Any exchange of spiritual for temporal things is simoniacal.

It is a serious sin.

Practically speaking, the poorer the church, the more urgent the obligation of the faithful to support it.

In the 19th century the Second Plenary Council of Baltimore made the following decrees for the United States:

• A priest may accept what is freely offered after the administration of baptism or matrimony, but should refrain from asking anything.
• The poor who cannot be buried at their own expense should receive free burial.

The existence of “pew fees” was a common practice in early American history. It resulted in a compulsory contribution at the church entrance to hear Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.

A circular letter of September 29, 1911, by the Apostolic Delegate to the archbishops and bishops of the United States condemned the custom and directed ordinaries to suppress it wherever found in existence.

Canon Law expressly provides that the faithful have a right to the sacraments. That precludes mandatory fees for sacraments over and above the basic prohibition against simony.

.

 

[1ke]

Canon Law expressly provides that the faithful have a right to the sacraments. That precludes mandatory fees for sacraments over and above the basic prohibition against simony.

Can. 848 The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

The ordinary may establish an offering amount. He also establishes whether that offering goes to the pastor or somewhere else.

In our diocese the offering for baptisms and marriages is $50 and does not go to the pastor. It goes to the works of charity account, which the parish uses for those in need locally or for things like flood relief or other causes.

It seems that many, such as the poster who left the Church indicating he would not “pay” for sacraments, have not been properly catechized that they are not paying for the sacrament. They haven’t been catechized on their very real (and biblically based) obligation to support the Church and give offerings for the occasion of the sacraments, in thanksgiving and appreciation for said sacrament.

The sacraments are not to be withheld from those who are “needy” and in “poverty” because someone cannot give an offering. I highly doubt that applies to *anyone *on this thread.

Ultimately it is an offering, and cannot be required. It is also necessary that parishes properly train the people who work there, to be sure they understand that it is an offering, not a fee, that anyone who cannot or will not pay needs to be directed to the pastor.

 

[Gia_B]

I am always distressed by these “how dare they make me pay for sacraments!” threads. The bible says that we should be willing to give up everything we own to follow Christ and yet giving one’s parish $100 is somehow too much to ask? Does a child’s membership in the body of Christ really mean so little to the parents? Somehow I doubt that years later the parents will bat an eye when asked to pay several times that amount for participation in a youth sports program.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I am always distressed by these “how dare they make me pay for sacraments!” threads. The bible says that we should be willing to give up everything we own to follow Christ and yet giving one’s parish $100 is somehow too much to ask? Does a child’s membership in the body of Christ really mean so little to the parents? Somehow I doubt that years later the parents will bat an eye when asked to pay several times that amount for participation in a youth sports program.

I was not outraged because I believe the sacraments aren’t worth anything.

I was outraged because your church has declared that buying and selling sacraments is a sin called simony, and it was asking me to engage in that sin.

How much would you say is fair to charge for baptism?

 

[coachdennis]

Can. 848 The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

The ordinary may establish an offering amount. He also establishes whether that offering goes to the pastor or somewhere else.

In our diocese the offering for baptisms and marriages is $50 and does not go to the pastor. It goes to the works of charity account, which the parish uses for those in need locally or for things like flood relief or other causes.

It seems that many, such as the poster who left the Church indicating he would not “pay” for sacraments, have not been properly catechized that they are not paying for the sacrament. They haven’t been catechized on their very real (and biblically based) obligation to support the Church and give offerings for the occasion of the sacraments, in thanksgiving and appreciation for said sacrament.

The sacraments are not to be withheld from those who are “needy” and in “poverty” because someone cannot give an offering. I highly doubt that applies to *anyone *on this thread.

Ultimately it is an offering, and cannot be required. It is also necessary that parishes properly train the people who work there, to be sure they understand that it is an offering, not a fee, that anyone who cannot or will not pay needs to be directed to the pastor.

I would also add that many times this is poorly communicated by parish staff and poorly understood by well meaning “family members”. Using words like “fee” and “payment” communicate the wrong meaning.

Also, in my gut, sometimes I feel people also go out of their way to “find” a reason to complain about x and not do y. Some people, in my opinion, can’t go from point A to point B without encountering a “crisis” somewhere. I have never encountered one person ( in my 30+ years of volunteering in various Church positions and paid Church positions) who has been turned away because of an inability to pay. I have had people who have thrown tantrums over offerings, registration fees, or suggested stipends when mentioned but either they calm down when they hear the explanation or they leave without wanting to hear the explanation.

That is not saying that people say stupid, incorrect things and these should be corrected – but if you are looking for imperfection and a reason to say “aha” – you can always find it if you look hard enough.

 

[1ke]

I was outraged because your church has declared that buying and selling sacraments is a sin called simony, and it was asking me to engage in that sin.

No, the Church was not engaging in simony nor asking you to do so.

I am sorry that it was poorly communicated to you, and that you are not understanding it, but an offering is not buying or selling.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

No, the Church was not engaging in simony nor asking you to do so.

I am sorry that it was poorly communicated to you, and that you are not understanding it, but an offering is not buying or selling.

It wasn’t an offering. Offerings are freely given by the person.

It was not “your daughter will be baptized and offer whatever you can”

It was “give us 150 dollars and we can baptize your daughter”.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Can. 848 The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

The word “offering” connotes a free will donation. The discussion is about mandatory fees. Mandatory fees constitute simony.

It seems that many, such as the poster who left the Church indicating he would not “pay” for sacraments, have not been properly catechized that they are not paying for the sacrament. They haven’t been catechized on their very real (and biblically based) obligation to support the Church and give offerings for the occasion of the sacraments, in thanksgiving and appreciation for said sacrament.

I have a sense that the lack of catechesis may have been on the part of the individual in charge of scheduling liturgical events such as baptisms, marriages, and funerals.

The sacraments are not to be withheld from those who are “needy” and in “poverty” because someone cannot give an offering.

I hate to be picky, but if “A” wants his or her child baptized, “A” as a Catholic is entitled to the sacrament in virtue of being a Catholic. If the sacrament is conditioned on payment of money, whether that payment is called an “offering” or not, whether or not they are “needy” or in “poverty”, it is simony.

Ultimately it is an offering, and cannot be required.

And that is the critical point. It cannot be required.

.

 

[1ke]

The word “offering” connotes a free will donation. The discussion is about mandatory fees. Mandatory fees constitute simony.

Depends on what the fee is for. A fee for the preparatory classes would not be a fee for the sacrament. (Whether or not fees should be charged for prep classes, CCD, etc, is an entirely different discussion).

We really don’t know the **actual **situation, we only know what people have written here, which may be their perception but may also not be the whole story.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Depends on what the fee is for. A fee for the preparatory classes would not be a fee for the sacrament.

You might consider moving to Philadelphia and becoming an attorney.

If the preparatory class or classes are a condition which if not met precludes the provision of the sacrament, it is effectively a fee for the sacrament of Baptism.

Traditionally there was a pamphlet or catechism given to the parents and godparents and the pastor had a short meeting with all of them to make sure they had the basics down as to what the sacrament did and what their duties are. And there was no charge.

That American parishes have adopted the McDonald’s mode of management and buy various audio-visual materials, hire teachers, and otherwise gussy things up is the choice of the parish. If it doesn’t have the money for it, it shouldn’t spend it.

.

 

[babochka]

Why is this approach only acceptable for the classes and sacraments involving children? Is there typically a charge for RCIA? RCIA classes are much more involved than a simple 2 or 3 hour class for the baptism of infants. There are more materials, more use of church facilities, more classes, more time planning liturgies…

How would we react if the the church started making announcements that read: "A priest or Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion is available to bring the Eucharist to the sick and homebound. The usual and customary donation for this service is $20. Please make payment at the time the request is made. " Or “In order to offset the costs of lighting, heating and cooling the church on Saturday afternoons, and to compensate the priest for his time, we request that a $5 donation be made prior to each confession.”

Or what about adult education opportunities? Is there typically a charge for parish Bible studies (other than maybe a negligible book fee?) or other study groups or classes? No, the parish sees the ongoing sacramental and education needs of its adult parishioners as the responsibility of the parish.

My own parish doesn’t charge or request donations for any of these things, so I don’t have much personal experience, but I did a search of local parishes and was rather shocked. On parish charges $75 for a baptism preparation class, and requests a $50 donation for the sacrament itself. Another charges $95 per student enrolled in religious education classes, plus a $50 sacrament fee if it is a sacramental year. As far as I know, these classes are taught by volunteers, but even if they aren’t this is a cost that ought to be borne by the entire community, not just the parents of the children being educated.

 

[1ke]

Why is this approach only acceptable for the classes and sacraments involving children? Is there typically a charge for RCIA? RCIA classes are much more involved than a simple 2 or 3 hour class for the baptism of infants. There are more materials, more use of church facilities, more classes, more time planning liturgies…

 

[1ke]

Why is this approach only acceptable for the classes and sacraments involving children?

It is also customary to make an offering on the occasion of marriages, funerals, and confirmations.

Is there typically a charge for RCIA? RCIA classes are much more involved than a simple 2 or 3 hour class for the baptism of infants. There are more materials, more use of church facilities, more classes, more time planning liturgies…

Some do, some don’t.

How would we react if the the church started making announcements that read: "A priest or Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion is available to bring the Eucharist to the sick and homebound. The usual and customary donation for this service is $20. Please make payment at the time the request is made. " Or “In order to offset the costs of lighting, heating and cooling the church on Saturday afternoons, and to compensate the priest for his time, we request that a $5 donation be made prior to each confession.”

Back when people had manners and a sense of proper etiquette, the Church didn’t inform people of the offerings, peopled asked upon special occasions like marriage, baptism, etc.

I still get asked what the customary offering is. Hence the establishment of a uniform offering within a diocese. It’s not required.

Or what about adult education opportunities? Is there typically a charge for parish Bible studies (other than maybe a negligible book fee?) or other study groups or classes? No, the parish sees the ongoing sacramental and education needs of its adult parishioners as the responsibility of the parish.

Maybe no in your parish, but yes in many parishes.

My own parish doesn’t charge or request donations for any of these things, so I don’t have much personal experience, but I did a search of local parishes and was rather shocked. On parish charges $75 for a baptism preparation class, and requests a $50 donation for the sacrament itself. Another charges $95 per student enrolled in religious education classes, plus a $50 sacrament fee if it is a sacramental year. As far as I know, these classes are taught by volunteers, but even if they aren’t this is a cost that ought to be borne by the entire community, not just the parents of the children being educated.

My parish doesn’t charge for CCD or anything really (basically just rental of the parish hall, use of the church for private weddings) but others in the area do. The offerings are established by the diocese. If people give an offering, I deposit it. If they don’t, then they don’t.

I agree that these things should be supported by the community as a whole. I admire the bishop in Wichita, where Catholic school is free too.

 

[johnnyc176]

I hate to be picky, but if “A” wants his or her child baptized,** “A” as a Catholic is entitled** to the sacrament in virtue of being a Catholic.

Shouldn’t that be practicing Catholic or at least somewhat of a practicing Catholic lol? Just asking because I just heard Fr. Larry Richards tell a caller that the godparents must be practicing Catholics to be accepted as godparents.

 

[Memaw]

I was not outraged because I believe the sacraments aren’t worth anything.

I was outraged because your church has declared that buying and selling sacraments is a sin called simony, and it was asking me to engage in that sin.

How much would you say is fair to charge for baptism?

If they were trying to “charge” you $150 then you should have reported that to the Bishop. There’s a right way and a wrong way to handle these things and it looks like you chose the wrong way. That’s your loss, I’m afraid. God Bless, Memaw

 

[House_Harkonnen]

If they were trying to “charge” you $150 then you should have reported that to the Bishop. There’s a right way and a wrong way to handle these things and it looks like you chose the wrong way. That’s your loss, I’m afraid. God Bless, Memaw

I did, I wrote a few letters to the bishop. How else should I have handled it?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Back when people had manners and a sense of proper etiquette, the Church didn’t inform people of the offerings, peopled asked upon special occasions like marriage, baptism, etc.

Well said.