No infant Baptism unless parents take class and pay fee?

[pianistclare]

I bet waiters would disagree with you…I strongly suspect that there’s at least some correlation between good tipping and generosity to church.

By the way, here’s a sad/funny thing that some of our less prudent Protestant brethren do: tipping with tracts.

pastormikesmusings.blogspot.com/2008/11/tipping-with-tract.html

dailyoftheday.com/no-this-is-not-an-okay-tip-to-leave/

LOL. Well, our parish is in an affluent area. But we have plenty of poor parishioners. That’s why we don’t charge anything. We have a Retreat fee for Confirmation for the first time ever this year, because they are going away for three days to a camp and all the transportation and meals are covered. $50 bucks. But it won’t keep any kids from being confirmed if they don’t have it. The parish is covering the rest. Out of the collection.
I’m always amazed at people that get all riled at their parish. So find another one! People do it all the time, Priests don’t like parish-hopping, but hey…you can always find a parish that fits with your notion of what “church” should be/say/do.
.

 

[guanophore]

I still refused to pay, I won’t pay for any sacrament. It’s the principle of the thing you know?

It seems you have found the perfect solution. You have chosen an ecclesial community that denies the rest of the sacraments.

Now THERE is one’s principles at work.

 

[babochka]

It’s been my observation working in parishes, that the people that gripe the most about the church being “money-hungry” are the people who never put a dime in the collection.
Less than 20% of the parishioners at most parishes carry the cost of running the parish and covering the charity that the church hands out to people who present themselves at the door, or Catholic Charities, not to mention the tax paid to the Diocese.
We NEVER turn away anyone who does not have the ability to pay for education, or anything else. These are services we offer. For free. We do not charge for Sacraments. But I have zero qualms about asking for a fee to defray costs for education, etc. People will tip a waiter a chunk, but they won’t support the church.
Some people pay their fair share, but the vast majority do not.

I don’t think I agree, or at least I don’t fit your stereotype. I give to my parish, both regularly and for special occasions and events. This doesn’t mean that I see churches that charge fees for classes or give the appearance of charging for sacraments as being “money-hungry”. I just see the approach as being seriously misguided. My concern is about a fee-for-service mentality or “user fees”, and putting barriers up to receiving the sacraments.

If I were in a parish that had this sort of setup, I would be seriously disturbed. I’d pay the fee, probably while griping about it, but I am absolutely convinced that it is wrong approach. It gives the idea that we are charging a fee for a sacrament necessary for salvation. It makes some people reluctant to approach for this very important sacrament.

I also disagree with the idea of charging for the education opportunities offered by parishes, particularly when they are required prior to receiving the sacraments. (Isn’t that sort of the same thing as requiring payment for sacraments? I mean, if the fee for the class is required, and the class is mandatory in order to receive the sacrament?) It comes back to the fee-for-service mentality. We are a Church, a community of Christians. If a parish charges for religious education, this burden falls primarily on families with young children. Are we the only ones who have a vested interest in the faith formation of our children? Will not the entire church benefit from well-catechized Catholics? Parents are the primary educators of their children, but does the entire Church not have a role to play as well? Sacraments and catechesis are roles that belong to the church and are essential to the life of the church.

Where else can we impose user fees? Suppose a parish can only afford to hire an organist or other musicians for one Mass each weekend. Maybe the parish could sell tickets to attend that particular Mass over others, to cover the cost of the professional musicians. Or maybe a parish could charge a small fee to cover a subscription to the parish bulletin? After all, it takes time (usually by a paid employee to compile the information in the bulletin), and printing costs add up. I know these sound like ridiculous examples, but this is where the fee-for-service mentality leads in my mind.

Bottom line for me is that sacraments and requirements for sacraments should never be associated with a fee, and those things that are the responsibility of the whole church and benefit the Church as a whole (religious education, etc.) should never have a fee associated with them.

Parishes are, in many ways, structured like businesses, with a very practical mindset. In some ways, that is necessary. Churches have to deal with insurance, bills, payroll, etc and these are all very earthly matters. It is practical to require that those who utilize a service are the ones who should pay for it, but I think that is a very sad attitude for the church to take. We need to see religious education and preparation for sacraments as ministries of the parish, not as services provided to consumers. Sure, have suggested donations. Provide families enrolling their children in religious education with a list of costs involved in the program, so that they can be encouraged to cover those costs. Provide those same things to parishioners in general, and not just as part of the annual budget information. When faith formation begins each year, include a bulletin insert listing the number of children/families involved in the program and the costs involved. Invite parishioners to help cover the costs. Let people know in very specific ways that these are some of the costs involved in fulfilling our mission in the modern world. Teach stewardship. It is not impossible. There are a handful of Catholic parishes and at least one diocese in this country which are able to offer tuition free Catholic education to all students because their leaders realize the value of stewardship and have managed to reach the people in the pews with the message. I’m guessing those parishes don’t have fees for sacraments and religious education classes.

It is easier in a small parish, where we know each other and support each other because we know each other. My parish’s entire annual operating budget is around $75,000 a year. Some parishes exceed that in a month. We know that each extra dollar that we are able to put into the collection will make a difference and it does inspire generosity. I read the bulletin recently in another local parish. Apparently, the pastor broke down the budget and asked each family to consider adding $2.00 each week to their contributions in order to cover some increased costs. He was reporting in the bulletin that the following week, people responded positively and the weekly collection was $2000 more than it had been the week before he made the request. People will respond if they are helped to see that their contributions make a difference and help their parish better survive or better fulfill its mission.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, with all due respect. Your parish may be small…ours is as well. We charge for catechism classes, Jr. youth group and high School Youth group. NOT for Sacramental classes. But these classes, ALL of them require books, materials, ad nauseum. None of this prevents a child from attendance, ever, it’s stated in the policies and enrollment forms. But we do expect people to pay if they can. Priests get slammed if they ask for more money. This is what I am referring to. People think the church is wealthy. People think everything in church should be free. Well, in a perfect world, yeah. But the reality is ( and it think it’s funny you should bring it up) I was Music Director in a parish that for 16 years that basically paid me for playing at only one Mass. But I played ALL of them, funerals, weddings, and Holy Days, for no pay. Lived below the poverty line for years. I agreed to it, because of my God -given talent. But it doesn’t make it right for the parishioners to simply ignore the needs of the parish. We have people who have their kids enrolled in the highest priced private schools, and ask that their catechism fee for the year be waived.
Less than a tank of gas for that big SUV and A cup of Starbucks combined.
We would LOVE to build a parish hall. No can do. We’re forced to rent the Catholic School across the driveway. Parishioners believe we get it for free. Nope. People think all the employees are full time with benefits. Nope. People think the parish buys Father a car and pays his insurance. Nope.
My point it, the nickel and diming that people believe parishes do, is simply not true. We teach, we educate all ages, we visit the sick, we have Masses, Communion services, we hold picnics where the meats are provided…all we ask if a few bucks in the collection plate and a bowl of potato salad now and then. And 20% of the people do.
The rest shop around for a “cheaper parish” or a “parish that follows the Gospel directive”. You know, the Apostles relied on the community to support them, and the pious women who followed and fed them.
Yes, there are exceptions, like your dear family that does all they can. But truly…you are an exception. God bless you for your support of the Church. You will be rewarded for caring.

 

[babochka]

Well, with all due respect. Your parish may be small…ours is as well. We charge for catechism classes, Jr. youth group and high School Youth group. NOT for Sacramental classes. But these classes, ALL of them require books, materials, ad nauseum. None of this prevents a child from attendance, ever, it’s stated in the policies and enrollment forms. But we do expect people to pay if they can. Priests get slammed if they ask for more money. This is what I am referring to. People think the church is wealthy. People think everything in church should be free. Well, in a perfect world, yeah. But the reality is ( and it think it’s funny you should bring it up) I was Music Director in a parish that for 16 years that basically paid me for playing at only one Mass. But I played ALL of them, funerals, weddings, and Holy Days, for no pay. Lived below the poverty line for years. I agreed to it, because of my God -given talent. But it doesn’t make it right for the parishioners to simply ignore the needs of the parish. We have people who have their kids enrolled in the highest priced private schools, and ask that their catechism fee for the year be waived.
Less than a tank of gas for that big SUV and A cup of Starbucks combined.
We would LOVE to build a parish hall. No can do. We’re forced to rent the Catholic School across the driveway. Parishioners believe we get it for free. Nope. People think all the employees are full time with benefits. Nope. People think the parish buys Father a car and pays his insurance. Nope.
My point it, the nickel and diming that people believe parishes do, is simply not true. We teach, we educate all ages, we visit the sick, we have Masses, Communion services, we hold picnics where the meats are provided…all we ask if a few bucks in the collection plate and a bowl of potato salad now and then. And 20% of the people do.
The rest shop around for a “cheaper parish” or a “parish that follows the Gospel directive”. You know, the Apostles relied on the community to support them, and the pious women who followed and fed them.
Yes, there are exceptions, like your dear family that does all they can. But truly…you are an exception. God bless you for your support of the Church. You will be rewarded for caring.

I’m not saying that Catholic culture is not as you say it is. I’m saying that we need to change the culture! Is it a huge task, but not impossible. It has been done, at the parish level and the diocesan level. It has been done in poor parishes and rich parishes, large parishes and small parishes. We need to create of culture in our parishes of funding our parish ministries.

If your parish has both a jr. high and high school ministry, you’re quite a bit bigger than we are. We have 22 registered families, 17 of which attend regularly. We’re made up mostly of elderly retirees (mostly widows) and single-income young families. We don’t even have enough people to put on a decent fundraiser. You dream of a new hall, we dream of paying our small mortgage each month and hope that the roof lasts a few more years. (It will cost $100,000 to replace.) Our volunteer cantor just quit, because he could no longer keep it up with two young children. It makes for a tough situation in a liturgy that is entirely sung/chanted. We aren’t a parish that is full of “programs” because we lack the people and funds to pull that off. But what we do offer, we offer for free because they are ministries of the parish. As we grow, I expect that it will remain the same. If we, in our situation, can hold it together and squeak by and survive, I firmly believe that other parishes can thrive without charging for basic parish ministries. Now, if your youth group wants to go to an amusement park or World Youth Day, it is probably time for them to start washing cars. But a fee to just participate in youth group doesn’t seem right to me. (And some of us drive a gas guzzling SUV because we need that size vehicle to fit our families. Trust me, I dream of driving a Prius, but my 2002 Ford Expedition, which costs over $100 to fill, will have to do for now. I don’t think that should qualify me as living in luxury.)

Anyway, I guess it is just a basic philosophical difference, and I understand your point of view. I also understand that you don’t advocate charging for sacraments or giving that appearance. You just have a practical outlook: the parish needs to offer these things, and the money has to come from somewhere. You also have "competition from other parishes; we really don’t. We’re the only Byzantine parish for 200 miles. If you want a Byzantine parish, we’re it. Therefore, we can “get away” with not having these ministries.

I just think we need to challenge people and use as models parishes and dioceses that have accomplished it already. ncregister.com/daily-news/catholic-education-stewardship-thriving-in-wichita

(If the Protestants can do it, so can we!)

 

[DarkLight]

One thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is the psychological effects of paying money. People are often much less likely to follow through on something that they haven’t paid for. A small fee most likely drastically reduces the number of people who sign up and don’t follow through.

 

[buc_fan33]

I was actually researching something else and stumbled across this thread. I haven’t posted on here in ages, but figured I’d add my “two cents,” pun definitely intended, to the conversation.

In our parish, we have around 2,500 families. Figure on average four people per family, that’s 10,000 people. We have tons of baptisms, weddings, first communions, and confirmations.

Regardless of however you work it out, it’s a catch-22. We could not charge a fee for the preparation classes, and the parish would simply go broke. The vast majority of our parishioners do not give anything financially to the parish. And, in many cases, I don’t fault them for this. That’s between that person and God. God knows if the person is really destitute or not. When someone expresses an inability to pay the fee for the class, we always, as in ALWAYS, work with the family. Often times, we will waive the fee entirely. However, were we to not charge these fees, our parish simply couldn’t survive. Our weekly collections are far short of even the basic amount to pay basic utilities such as gas, electric, and water. They don’t come close to paying our staff’s salary (and you need a full-time staff with a community of 10,000). This doesn’t even begin discussing most parishes’ biggest expense: insurance. In short, the weekly collection doesn’t come close to cutting it.

So, we are left with a dilemma. Offer classes for free, and see the parish close, or charge a minimal fee and be able to continue offering quality catechesis. We choose the latter option. Again, reception of the sacraments is not contingent upon paying the fee. So, what is the purpose of the fee, besides simply covering the costs of offering the class?

1. It gives people a sense of ownership. If someone had to pay a minimal fee (we charge $30.00 for baptismal classes), the person is invested. If the class was a freebie, a handout so to speak, the person has no ownership and gets even less out of the class. We see the same phenomenon in society. When low income people are provided with housing free of charge, what often happens? The home is destroyed. Why? Because the individual has no ownership, and thus no vested interest, in the upkeep of the home.
2. It gives people a sense of pride and self-worth. In my experience, it is often times the poorest: the immigrant, the person who has just lost a job, the single parent struggling to make ends meet, who MOST want to pay the fee. Why? Because these people see that as a small way to maintain their human dignity. Obviously, our dignity is not tied to an ability to pay a fee. However, most people don’t want things for free. Most people want to make their own way in life, so to speak. As a result, a minimal fee helps the person with this.
3. With regards to Mass offerings, there is a spiritual significance because it unites the person’s own, personal, sacrifice with the sacrifice of the Mass. (We make up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.) In other words, when someone just has a Mass offered, it is certainly still efficacious. However, by uniting even a small sacrifice with that Mass (in our diocese it is $5.00), the person participates in a tangible way with the sacrifice of Calvary.
4. Finally, it helps people prioritize. This is sort of the flip side of number 2 above. I’ll be honest. It bothers me when a couple spends thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, of dollars on a wedding–renting tuxedos, dresses, a limo, hiring a DJ, a professional caterer, providing an open bar, hiring a professional organist and cantor, etc–and is offended when asked to contribute $500.00 to the Church to help pay the custodian who has to clean up after them, to pay the DRE who helped with their marriage prep, to pay to have the lights on in the Church, the AC on, and to rent the Church. (Let’s not forget that just because we are members of a particular parish, we don’t OWN that parish.) It’s a matter of priorities. “Where your heart is, there your treasure lies.” I know one priest, God bless him, who, in lieu of a set fee, asks a couple to tithe ten percent of whatever they are spending on their wedding to a charity. It could be the parish. It could be another worthwhile cause. He told me that he’s never, not even once, had a couple take him up on it–and he’s not what you would call “newly ordained.”

At the end of the day, the Church is not a business. We don’t run like a business. But, we do have bills like anybody else. If you want a Church in which to have a baptism, a Confirmation, a first Communion, a wedding, a funeral, whatever, we have to support it. And yes, that means financially.

 

[Xantippe]

1. It gives people a sense of pride and self-worth. In my experience, it is often times the poorest: the immigrant, the person who has just lost a job, the single parent struggling to make ends meet, who MOST want to pay the fee. Why? Because these people see that as a small way to maintain their human dignity. Obviously, our dignity is not tied to an ability to pay a fee. However, most people don’t want things for free. Most people want to make their own way in life, so to speak. As a result, a minimal fee helps the person with this.

**How do you gracefully not take this needy person’s money without insulting them? It’s really terrible to take money from people who don’t have it to give.

We’ve never paid for either marriage prep or baptismal prep (never had a baptismal class offered, never were asked for a dime) and we somehow manage to support our parishes in a meaningful way.

If the baptismal prep and the CCD you offer is so awesome, why isn’t it turning out awesome Catholic families who are dying to support their parish? Why is it producing generation after generation of selfish Catholics? **

1. With regards to Mass offerings, there is a spiritual significance because it unites the person’s own, personal, sacrifice with the sacrifice of the Mass. (We make up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.) In other words, when someone just has a Mass offered, it is certainly still efficacious. However, by uniting even a small sacrifice with that Mass (in our diocese it is $5.00), the person participates in a tangible way with the sacrifice of Calvary.
   **
   That’s totally voluntary.**
2. Finally, it helps people prioritize. This is sort of the flip side of number 2 above. I’ll be honest. It bothers me when a couple spends thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, of dollars on a wedding–renting tuxedos, dresses, a limo, hiring a DJ, a professional caterer, providing an open bar, hiring a professional organist and cantor, etc–and is offended when asked to contribute $500.00 to the Church to help pay the custodian who has to clean up after them, to pay the DRE who helped with their marriage prep, to pay to have the lights on in the Church, the AC on, and to rent the Church. (Let’s not forget that just because we are members of a particular parish, we don’t OWN that parish.) It’s a matter of priorities. “Where your heart is, there your treasure lies.” I know one priest, God bless him, who, in lieu of a set fee, asks a couple to tithe ten percent of whatever they are spending on their wedding to a charity. It could be the parish. It could be another worthwhile cause. He told me that he’s never, not even once, had a couple take him up on it–and he’s not what you would call “newly ordained.”

**There are lots of people who spend less than $1,000 total on their church weddings. My husband and I spent probably $600 back in 1998 and that covered $150 gift (not fee, gift) to the parish, wedding rings, a new dress for me, groceries to make a nice homemade lunch for a few friends, a cake and a small bouquet. **

At the end of the day, the Church is not a business. We don’t run like a business. But, we do have bills like anybody else. If you want a Church in which to have a baptism, a Confirmation, a first Communion, a wedding, a funeral, whatever, we have to support it. And yes, that means financially.

We do support our parishes financially, and that’s why I profoundly dislike charging for sacraments. And yes, it is charging for the sacrament if there’s no other way to get the sacrament than to do a class that you have to pay for.

 

[CradleJourney]

I was actually researching something else and stumbled across this thread. I haven’t posted on here in ages, but figured I’d add my “two cents,” pun definitely intended, to the conversation.

So, what is the purpose of the fee, besides simply covering the costs of offering the class?

1. It gives people a sense of ownership. If someone had to pay a minimal fee (we charge $30.00 for baptismal classes), the person is invested. If the class was a freebie, a handout so to speak, the person has no ownership and gets even less out of the class. We see the same phenomenon in society. When low income people are provided with housing free of charge, what often happens? The home is destroyed. Why? Because the individual has no ownership, and thus no vested interest, in the upkeep of the home.
2. It gives people a sense of pride and self-worth. In my experience, it is often times the poorest: the immigrant, the person who has just lost a job, the single parent struggling to make ends meet, who MOST want to pay the fee. Why? Because these people see that as a small way to maintain their human dignity. Obviously, our dignity is not tied to an ability to pay a fee. However, most people don’t want things for free. Most people want to make their own way in life, so to speak. As a result, a minimal fee helps the person with this.
3. With regards to Mass offerings, there is a spiritual significance because it unites the person’s own, personal, sacrifice with the sacrifice of the Mass. (We make up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.) In other words, when someone just has a Mass offered, it is certainly still efficacious. However, by uniting even a small sacrifice with that Mass (in our diocese it is $5.00), the person participates in a tangible way with the sacrifice of Calvary.
4. Finally, it helps people prioritize. This is sort of the flip side of number 2 above. I’ll be honest. It bothers me when a couple spends thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, of dollars on a wedding–renting tuxedos, dresses, a limo, hiring a DJ, a professional caterer, providing an open bar, hiring a professional organist and cantor, etc–and is offended when asked to contribute $500.00 to the Church to help pay the custodian who has to clean up after them, to pay the DRE who helped with their marriage prep, to pay to have the lights on in the Church, the AC on, and to rent the Church. (Let’s not forget that just because we are members of a particular parish, we don’t OWN that parish.) It’s a matter of priorities. “Where your heart is, there your treasure lies.”

At the end of the day, the Church is not a business. We don’t run like a business. But, we do have bills like anybody else. If you want a Church in which to have a baptism, a Confirmation, a first Communion, a wedding, a funeral, whatever, we have to support it. And yes, that means financially.

Excellent post! But for the sake of argument, may I offer another view of the matter?

1. A sense of participation is good - but ownership can have a downside … like the wedding couple who “paid good money” for the mass so want to insist that their photographer be allowed to shoot from wherever they want, or the baptismal parents who want an unsuitable person to be named godparent - after all, they paid for it!
2. It can give the people a false set of pride or destroy someone’s self worth. Well, I paid $XXXX for my kid’s sacrament. Or on the other end of the spectrum - “I’m such a lousy provider - not only can I not afford Catholic school, I even had to beg for a waiver for the baptism of the baby and wait two weeks to hear if we were approved.”
3. This is the one I have no direct counter - except that I doubt it’s worded in that format. In fact that’s one of the biggest failures I’ve experienced with the parishes in my area. The response is not “Congratulations on your new little one!!! How wonderful that you want to make him/her a part of the Church. We’ll be happy to help. Let’s set up a time for you to learn more about baptism so you’re fully prepared for the promises you’ll make - and to be sure you know the requirements for the godparents. The baptism itself can be held at XX day/time(s). We are so excited for you!!! Now, we do ask that you help with the cost of the classes - of course there’s no charge for the sacrament itself, but the materials do cost money. We ask each couple to pay $X to help us continue to be able to maintain the church building and provide materials for our baptisms, but if that’s a real hardship, please don’t worry. Pastor XXX is always eager to work with couples to make this possible.”

Instead it’s “What’s your name? You have to take a class which meets on Thursday and you can bring in your $X payment anytime before then.”

So many times my encounters with a parish are centered solely around the procedure and the cost - never the spiritual or emotional dimensions. Pay this, show up here, do that, fill this out. I realize that our priests are stretched far beyond their limit in - but we really need to do a better job of finding/training those who work with the people who are calling in - be they well established parishioners - or those who’ve never been heard from before (and why would they bother to return later - they did the paperwork, paid their money and jumped through the hoop, right? Nobody particularly cared about them - just needed them to do as they were told, so why bother coming back?)

1. Prioritizing is a key. But in the interaction with the parish - what do the petitioners discern to be the priority of the Church? That they pay money and follow rules? Or that they are warmly welcomed, made to feel valuable, and encouraged to participate fully in all aspects (including financial) of parish life?

 

[guanophore]

One thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is the psychological effects of paying money. People are often much less likely to follow through on something that they haven’t paid for. A small fee most likely drastically reduces the number of people who sign up and don’t follow through.

While this is very true, the sad fact is that most “Catholics” fail to follow through when it comes to bringing up their children in the faith. The generation of parents were abysmally catechized, and are not catching up while their kids are receiving instruction. They are not spiritually well formed at home, and many often only darken the door of the parish when they are hatched, matched, and dispatched.

We have an entire generation of Catholics that are sacramentalized but not evangelized.

 

[Xantippe]

Excellent post! But for the sake of argument, may I offer another view of the matter?

1. A sense of participation is good - but ownership can have a downside … like the wedding couple who “paid good money” for the mass so want to insist that their photographer be allowed to shoot from wherever they want, or the baptismal parents who want an unsuitable person to be named godparent - after all, they paid for it!
2. It can give the people a false set of pride or destroy someone’s self worth. Well, I paid $XXXX for my kid’s sacrament. Or on the other end of the spectrum - “I’m such a lousy provider - not only can I not afford Catholic school, I even had to beg for a waiver for the baptism of the baby and wait two weeks to hear if we were approved.”
3. This is the one I have no direct counter - except that I doubt it’s worded in that format. In fact that’s one of the biggest failures I’ve experienced with the parishes in my area. The response is not “Congratulations on your new little one!!! How wonderful that you want to make him/her a part of the Church. We’ll be happy to help. Let’s set up a time for you to learn more about baptism so you’re fully prepared for the promises you’ll make - and to be sure you know the requirements for the godparents. The baptism itself can be held at XX day/time(s). We are so excited for you!!! Now, we do ask that you help with the cost of the classes - of course there’s no charge for the sacrament itself, but the materials do cost money. We ask each couple to pay $X to help us continue to be able to maintain the church building and provide materials for our baptisms, but if that’s a real hardship, please don’t worry. Pastor XXX is always eager to work with couples to make this possible.”

Instead it’s “What’s your name? You have to take a class which meets on Thursday and you can bring in your $X payment anytime before then.”

So many times my encounters with a parish are centered solely around the procedure and the cost - never the spiritual or emotional dimensions. Pay this, show up here, do that, fill this out. I realize that our priests are stretched far beyond their limit in - but we really need to do a better job of finding/training those who work with the people who are calling in - be they well established parishioners - or those who’ve never been heard from before (and why would they bother to return later - they did the paperwork, paid their money and jumped through the hoop, right? Nobody particularly cared about them - just needed them to do as they were told, so why bother coming back?)

1. Prioritizing is a key. But in the interaction with the parish - what do the petitioners discern to be the priority of the Church? That they pay money and follow rules? Or that they are warmly welcomed, made to feel valuable, and encouraged to participate fully in all aspects (including financial) of parish life?

Yes.

I also think it’s important to be generous to people who are just starting out in life–the young couples, the young parents, etc. They often are starting out with nothing or way less than nothing and they’ll remember who lent them a helping hand. I am so thankful that when we were getting married and having babies when we had nothing, that there wasn’t a breath about fees. At the time, I was 1) poor 2) much prouder than I am now (due to having grown up poorer) and 3) not that good with the money, so I would have handed over almost any sum without dreaming of asking for a waiver.

While there’s a lot of griping about rich people with over-the-top weddings who are chintzy toward their parishes, let’s remember that that’s not everybody. The average person is more likely to delay marriage longer than they ought to (last time I checked, the average first time US bride is one year older than the average first time US mother) largely because they feel that a church wedding has to be a big show-stopping whoopdedoo. (And a $500 fee certainly plays into that perception.) In the current atmosphere, you have on the one hand the couples getting married with great pomp and expense…and on the other hand couples not getting married, largely because they can’t afford the pomp and expense and because they are living in their childhood bedroom in their parents’ homes, eyeballs deep in student loans, working service industry jobs, with parents who can’t afford to help them beyond room and board. There’s a lot more showy spending than there was 20 or 30 years ago, but people (especially young people) are often poorer than they were then.

There’s also the issue that a lot of the extreme spending we see isn’t being done with actual cash money. It’s fueled with debt–home equity loans, credit cards, student loans (what won’t people buy with student loan money nowadays?), pay day loans, you name it. It’s no good saying, “If they can afford to spend X on their wedding, they can afford to give Y to the parish,” because frankly, they probably can’t afford X and they probably aren’t using actual cash for their wedding. The entire wedding may be entirely borrowed. Plus, given that the average total student loan these days is now $29k, the bride and groom may between the two of them have easily mid five-figures in non-mortgage debt.

How about having some sort of system where there’s no fee for anybody who can demonstrate attendance at the parish (bulletins or whatever) and fees for everybody else?

 

[buc_fan33]

How do you gracefully not take this needy person’s money without insulting them? It’s really terrible to take money from people who don’t have it to give.

To be honest, it’s not that difficult. Again, every family I’ve ever encountered WANTS to give something. It’s all about how you phrase it.

We’ve never paid for either marriage prep or baptismal prep (never had a baptismal class offered, never were asked for a dime) and we somehow manage to support our parishes in a meaningful way.

That’s great. And believe me, I appreciate that. But believe me when I say, you are not typical.

If the baptismal prep and the CCD you offer is so awesome, why isn’t it turning out awesome Catholic families who are dying to support their parish? Why is it producing generation after generation of selfish Catholics?

Because, with respect, you don’t understand the whole situation. And, a public message board is not the appropriate forum by which to explain it. Suffice it to say, there are a myriad of reasons. Believe me, it frustrates me to no end.

There are lots of people who spend less than $1,000 total on their church weddings. My husband and I spent probably $600 back in 1998 and that covered $150 gift (not fee, gift) to the parish, wedding rings, a new dress for me, groceries to make a nice homemade lunch for a few friends, a cake and a small bouquet.

Fantastic! You and your husband aren’t really who I’m talking about though. I would say the average wedding today costs far more than $1,000.00. Again, the fee is ALWAYS waived when there is a hardship. If the couple regularly attends Mass and is well-known at the parish, often times the staff knows about special situations. We don’t even tell the couple we’re waiving the fee in those cases. We just do it.

We do support our parishes financially, and that’s why I profoundly dislike charging for sacraments. And yes, it is charging for the sacrament if there’s no other way to get the sacrament than to do a class that you have to pay for.

Again, fantastic! But, you are the exception rather than the rule. If someone is already supporting the parish, we’ll often waive the fee in that case as well. The problem is the vast majority who DON’T support the parish. And, I will argue that it is not charging for the sacrament. Again, we will NEVER refuse a sacrament as a result of someone not being able to pay a minimal fee for a class and required materials.

Money is never an easy issue to discuss when it comes to the Church. I don’t know where you live. I’m in the United States. In this country, the Church is not supported by the government. In some countries, like Germany, the Church is supported by taxes, as I understand it. Here though, we have to raise money ourselves. If everyone tithed, it wouldn’t be an issue. But, not everyone does. We still have the same bills as anyone else. We have a serious moral obligation to pay staff a just wage and provide just benefits. The reality is that that costs money.

 

[buc_fan33]

1. A sense of participation is good - but ownership can have a downside … like the wedding couple who “paid good money” for the mass so want to insist that their photographer be allowed to shoot from wherever they want, or the baptismal parents who want an unsuitable person to be named godparent - after all, they paid for it!

We’re very clear, right at the outset, regarding what is and is not allowed. Everything you are describing is “not” allowed. As long as you are clear up front, this problem is averted.

1. It can give the people a false set of pride or destroy someone’s self worth. Well, I paid $XXXX for my kid’s sacrament. Or on the other end of the spectrum - “I’m such a lousy provider - not only can I not afford Catholic school, I even had to beg for a waiver for the baptism of the baby and wait two weeks to hear if we were approved.”

Again, it’s the truly poor who WANT to give SOMETHING. I’d say more, but I’m going to start being uncharitable, and I’m not going there!

In addition, there is no “approval” period. The conversation usually goes like this, “Listen, things are really tight right now. I just got laid off, this happened, that hap…” and the DRE or priest cuts in with these or similar words, “Don’t worry about it! We’ve all been there! It’s taken care of!”

Instead it’s “What’s your name? You have to take a class which meets on Thursday and you can bring in your $X payment anytime before then.”

So many times my encounters with a parish are centered solely around the procedure and the cost - never the spiritual or emotional dimensions. Pay this, show up here, do that, fill this out. I realize that our priests are stretched far beyond their limit in - but we really need to do a better job of finding/training those who work with the people who are calling in - be they well established parishioners - or those who’ve never been heard from before (and why would they bother to return later - they did the paperwork, paid their money and jumped through the hoop, right? Nobody particularly cared about them - just needed them to do as they were told, so why bother coming back?)

I’m sorry that’s been your experience. All I can say is that at my parish, we try to exercise a little more charity and compassion.

The last thing I’ll say is that most are approaching this, I believe, from the standpoint of white, middle-class Americans. It’s a totally different mind-set, problems, and needs, when dealing with an immigrant community, as I am most of the time.

 

[CradleJourney]

I’m sorry that’s been your experience. All I can say is that at my parish, we try to exercise a little more charity and compassion.

The last thing I’ll say is that most are approaching this, I believe, from the standpoint of white, middle-class Americans. It’s a totally different mind-set, problems, and needs, when dealing with an immigrant community, as I am most of the time.

Thank you, I am glad your experience is different and I’m sure the communities we live in have much to do with that as well. As our DRE likes to say “It’s a big Church.” And most of us outside these boards probably experience only a relatively narrow glimpse of “the Church” in action. Like I said, I actually agree with you - but wanted to get another view of it out there based on what it looks and feels like here.

May God continue to bless both our parishes.

 

[vsedriver]

I’ve had three children baptized and am very pleased to say that I’ve never had to take a baptism class.

I had two sons baptized 20 and 21 years ago. Never took a class, was never charged a fee. For my second son, my father did give the priest a ‘stipend’. I have no idea how much he gave him. But I was an active member of the parish and participated in many ministries etc.

But I have heard of a lot of lapsed Catholics who want the weddings and baptisms in the Church even though they really don’t go. Maybe these classes are to help evangelize these folks.

 

[Memaw]

Well, with all due respect. Your parish may be small…ours is as well. We charge for catechism classes, Jr. youth group and high School Youth group. NOT for Sacramental classes. But these classes, ALL of them require books, materials, ad nauseum. None of this prevents a child from attendance, ever, it’s stated in the policies and enrollment forms. But we do expect people to pay if they can. Priests get slammed if they ask for more money. This is what I am referring to. People think the church is wealthy. People think everything in church should be free. Well, in a perfect world, yeah. But the reality is ( and it think it’s funny you should bring it up) I was Music Director in a parish that for 16 years that basically paid me for playing at only one Mass. But I played ALL of them, funerals, weddings, and Holy Days, for no pay. Lived below the poverty line for years. I agreed to it, because of my God -given talent. But it doesn’t make it right for the parishioners to simply ignore the needs of the parish. We have people who have their kids enrolled in the highest priced private schools, and ask that their catechism fee for the year be waived.
Less than a tank of gas for that big SUV and A cup of Starbucks combined.
We would LOVE to build a parish hall. No can do. We’re forced to rent the Catholic School across the driveway. Parishioners believe we get it for free. Nope. People think all the employees are full time with benefits. Nope. People think the parish buys Father a car and pays his insurance. Nope.
My point it, the nickel and diming that people believe parishes do, is simply not true. We teach, we educate all ages, we visit the sick, we have Masses, Communion services, we hold picnics where the meats are provided…all we ask if a few bucks in the collection plate and a bowl of potato salad now and then. And 20% of the people do.
The rest shop around for a “cheaper parish” or a “parish that follows the Gospel directive”. You know, the Apostles relied on the community to support them, and the pious women who followed and fed them.
Yes, there are exceptions, like your dear family that does all they can. But truly…you are an exception. God bless you for your support of the Church. You will be rewarded for caring.

AMEN and God Bless, I taught CCD for nearly 20 years and Fr. gave us a small fee but I put it back into the collection as did most of the other teachers. Where more people used to be much more generous, today all we hear is gripe, gripe and more gripe. Costs have gone way up for our parishes too but many still expect Fr. to pull the money our of the sky. We act like he’s responsible for all OUR parish bills. I have seen so many beautiful parishes Churches that were build 100 years or so ago by the sweat of the brow of regular lay folks. Are we really with the Church today, working to help it grow and set a good example for others or are we pulling against it?? I had a friend tell me one time that they don’t go to Mass anymore because the Church is full of hypocrites and all they want is money. And I simply asked her, “And what are you??” She is now a full practicing Catholic and her husband has converted also and loves the faith. So we can learn to love Our Lord and HIS Church enough to do what is right. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Phemie]

AMEN and God Bless, I taught CCD for nearly 20 years and Fr. gave us a small fee but I put it back into the collection as did most of the other teachers. Where more people used to be much more generous, today all we hear is gripe, gripe and more gripe. Costs have gone way up for our parishes too but many still expect Fr. to pull the money our of the sky. We act like he’s responsible for all OUR parish bills. I have seen so many beautiful parishes Churches that were build 100 years or so ago by the sweat of the brow of regular lay folks. Are we really with the Church today, working to help it grow and set a good example for others or are we pulling against it?? I had a friend tell me one time that they don’t go to Mass anymore because the Church is full of hypocrites and all they want is money. And I simply asked her, “And what are you??” She is now a full practicing Catholic and her husband has converted also and loves the faith. So we can learn to love Our Lord and HIS Church enough to do what is right. God Bless, Memaw

What I’ve seen, over and over again, is that if you ask for donations for something ‘showy’, like stained glass widows, you’ll have no problem getting donations but nobody is falling all over themselves to make sure the nuts and bolts are paid for. In my parish of 400+ families there are about 10 that give over $1K per year - and they are, for the most part, retirees. One family with three little kids, originally from Kenya, gives about 10% of our total collection.

 

[Xantippe]

To be honest, it’s not that difficult. Again, every family I’ve ever encountered WANTS to give something. It’s all about how you phrase it.

**Then what’s the problem? Why don’t you ASK rather than tell.

And again, how do you keep the eager needy from harming themselves and their families through their generosity when there’s a stated fee?
**

Fantastic! You and your husband aren’t really who I’m talking about though. I would say the average wedding today costs far more than $1,000.00. Again, the fee is ALWAYS waived when there is a hardship. If the couple regularly attends Mass and is well-known at the parish, often times the staff knows about special situations. We don’t even tell the couple we’re waiving the fee in those cases. We just do it.

**That’s very good.

Are you sure that you know all possible “special situations” though? In my opinion, just being an early 20-something is special situation enough 90% of the time.

Again, when my husband and I were 22 and 25 and in graduate school, pulling down an income in the low 20s between the two of us and paying for the entire wedding ourselves, I would never have dreamed of asking for a waiver, because at the time, it was the best I’d ever had it. I’d grown up poor and for me, having a whole $10k a year income of my very own was wealth beyond the dreams of avarice. I wouldn’t have asked for a waiver because 1) I didn’t think I was poor 2) having grown up a poor relative, I was particularly eager at the time to stand on my own two feet and not ask anything of anybody.**

Again, fantastic! But, you are the exception rather than the rule. If someone is already supporting the parish, we’ll often waive the fee in that case as well. The problem is the vast majority who DON’T support the parish. And, I will argue that it is not charging for the sacrament. Again, we will NEVER refuse a sacrament as a result of someone not being able to pay a minimal fee for a class and required materials.

**I guess it all depends how clearly that is stated and how many people stay away because of the fees, waiver or no waiver. We have to think not only of the people who are there, but of the people who aren’t there.

I would persevere for the kids’ sacraments at this point (because I’m reasonably well-catechized and way less proud than I used to be where my kids are concerned), but a lot of people wouldn’t. **

Money is never an easy issue to discuss when it comes to the Church. I don’t know where you live. I’m in the United States. In this country, the Church is not supported by the government.

**US. At one of our old parishes in this area, the pastor said that 19 years ago when he came into his parish (which had unwisely overexpanded and was struggling financially at the time due to a military base closure), he was told that they would never get by without bingo. The pastor preached on giving and things were immediately on an even keel for the next 19 years with no bingo. He left a substantial surplus (which was immediately eaten up by locust-like successors, but that’s a story for a different day). This was in a poor side of town, but the pastor was able to build a strong relationship with the college community (which wasn’t even that geographically close) and made quite a number of converts in our Bible Belt area. The pastor’s combination of prudence, orthodoxy and zeal was unstoppable.

There was no CCD fee there and, as I said, it was in a poor neighborhood.

Although we all hate the cookie cutter stewardship presentations, maybe it would help to be more concrete about what particular giving is for?
**
In some countries, like Germany, the Church is supported by taxes, as I understand it. Here though, we have to raise money ourselves. If everyone tithed, it wouldn’t be an issue. But, not everyone does. We still have the same bills as anyone else. We have a serious moral obligation to pay staff a just wage and provide just benefits. The reality is that that costs money.

 

[evolution_ed]

It appears the dogma of Baptism being required and never refused to a child (infant) has changed. When the local parish was asked to schedule a Baptism for our infant we were told this would not be possible unless both parents took a class and a fee was paid.

I have no problem with the fee to cover costs and instruction is always good. But there are times when this is not convenient or even nearly impossible. Adding insult to injury, “witnesses” were required to attend or the Baptism would be denied.

After decades of study and internal conversion, I have begun to question the Church.

 

[evolution_ed]

I can baptize the child myself !