No, it's NOT ok...

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heathernoel

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During the catechesis portion of RCIA today, we were discussing the movement in today’s American society to say “anything goes” as long as you don’t mention God or Christ. The feeling among my classmates and I was that on one hand, we need to make changes in our corner of the world…“Merry Christmas” instead of “Season’s Greetings”, Grace before meals at home AND in public, etc. In the same 5 minutes, they came full circle and were preaching how we need to be tolerant of different views.

Which one is it? How do you find a balance between standing up for your beliefs as a Catholic and wanting to show the Love Christ carried for all of us? My point was that Christ WASN’T politically correct. He denounced the pharisees, emphasized that wealth does not equal salvation, etc. How can we stand beside people who don’t hold our beliefs, and say it’s Ok that you believe (in abortion, divorce, Mohammed, etc)?

TIA,
Peace Be With You
Heather
 
heathernoel said:
During the catechesis portion of RCIA today, we were discussing the movement in today’s American society to say “anything goes” as long as you don’t mention God or Christ. The feeling among my classmates and I was that on one hand, we need to make changes in our corner of the world…“Merry Christmas” instead of “Season’s Greetings”, Grace before meals at home AND in public, etc. In the same 5 minutes, they came full circle and were preaching how we need to be tolerant of different views.

Which one is it? How do you find a balance between standing up for your beliefs as a Catholic and wanting to show the Love Christ carried for all of us? My point was that Christ WASN’T politically correct. He denounced the pharisees, emphasized that wealth does not equal salvation, etc. How can we stand beside people who don’t hold our beliefs, and say it’s Ok that you believe (in abortion, divorce, Mohammed, etc)?

TIA,
Peace Be With You
Heather
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Great question, Heather. 👍

For different reasons I find myself with the same questions.

How does one boldly stand up for truth and right where there is wrong at the same time show for Christ-like love.

Sometimes people are just going to be offended by what one has to say. They are going to get angry.

Would love to listen to what others have to say about this.
How did/do they handle such.
 
heathernoel said:
During the catechesis portion of RCIA today, we were discussing the movement in today’s American society to say “anything goes” as long as you don’t mention God or Christ. The feeling among my classmates and I was that on one hand, we need to make changes in our corner of the world…“Merry Christmas” instead of “Season’s Greetings”, Grace before meals at home AND in public, etc. In the same 5 minutes, they came full circle and were preaching how we need to be tolerant of different views.

Which one is it? How do you find a balance between standing up for your beliefs as a Catholic and wanting to show the Love Christ carried for all of us? My point was that Christ WASN’T politically correct. He denounced the pharisees, emphasized that wealth does not equal salvation, etc. How can we stand beside people who don’t hold our beliefs, and say it’s Ok that you believe (in abortion, divorce, Mohammed, etc)?

TIA,
Peace Be With You
Heather
Click to expand...
Tolerant of different views? Or respectful of the humans that hold those views? I personally think there is a difference. You can treat the person with love and respect without condoning their beliefs.

Edit: I should’ve also mentioned that I don’t consider “not making them angry” to be part of treating them respectfully. Telling someone the truth (respectfully) is loving, whether it makes them angry or not.
 
heathernoel said:
During the catechesis portion of RCIA today, we were discussing the movement in today’s American society to say “anything goes” as long as you don’t mention God or Christ. The feeling among my classmates and I was that on one hand, we need to make changes in our corner of the world…“Merry Christmas” instead of “Season’s Greetings”, Grace before meals at home AND in public, etc. In the same 5 minutes, they came full circle and were preaching how we need to be tolerant of different views.

Which one is it? How do you find a balance between standing up for your beliefs as a Catholic and wanting to show the Love Christ carried for all of us? My point was that Christ WASN’T politically correct. He denounced the pharisees, emphasized that wealth does not equal salvation, etc. How can we stand beside people who don’t hold our beliefs, and say it’s Ok that you believe (in abortion, divorce, Mohammed, etc)?

TIA,
Peace Be With You
Heather
Click to expand...
Heather,
Being tolerant of others does not mean hiding what you believe, or accepting what they believe. Tolerance means not prohibiting them from holding to their beliefs. Tolerance does not even require me to say that what they believe is as good as what I believe.
I can be tolerant of Muslims, and still reject, vocally if I choose, their religion as false (which it is), and in the hands of some, dangerous.
Living in a free society requires me to live along side those who do not believe as I do. I don’t even have to say “it is ok for you to believe in Islam”. You and I openly opposing abortion is no more intolerant than a neighbor supporting it.

Those who claim that I, as a teacher, cannot silently pray over my lunch in the lunch room and make the sign of the cross are the ones who are intolerant.

Jon
 
Tolerant of views vs. showing love to the person. Got it 🙂 I honestly hadn’t factored that in :rolleyes:
 
I believe that the reconciliation between tolerance and standing firm on what we believe is to recall that tolerance, in the religious sense, means tolerating things that you do not believe to be okay. If I am tolerant of another person, I may 100% believe that what they believe is not in the least bit okay. Indeed, I may even let them know as much, or at least make sure I never give the impression that I do approve.

One can believe and preach the truth, and refuse to preach or believe that falsehood is okay, without being intolerant. It is in line with tolerance to teach, even passionately, that abortion is murder. It is not in line with tolerance to blow up abortion clinics–though since murder should be illegal, it is in line with tolerance to campaign and make an effort to make abortion illegal as well. It is in line with tolerance to teach, even passionately, that homosexual acts are sinful, and even to not want any government to which one pays taxes to sanction such a thing that one believes to be sinful. It is not in line with tolerance to put homosexually active people in jail, anymore than one would put someone who had premarital sex in prison. And so on.

Tolerance balanced with conviction is about hating the sin but truly loving the sinner. When we master that, we will have properly walked the line between tolerance and weak conviction.

Or at least that is how I reason it. 🙂

I also must point out that I 100% agree with this caveat:
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bookgirl32:
I should’ve also mentioned that I don’t consider “not making them angry” to be part of treating them respectfully. Telling someone the truth (respectfully) is loving, whether it makes them angry or not.
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👍 Just like parents doing what’s best for their children may sometimes anger the children, trying to spread the truth for sinners’ own good may anger them…it is nonetheless no less loving to do so.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
JonNC said:
Heather,
Being tolerant of others does not mean hiding what you believe, or accepting what they believe. Tolerance means not prohibiting them from holding to their beliefs. Tolerance does not even require me to say that what they believe is as good as what I believe.
I can be tolerant of Muslims, and still reject, vocally if I choose, their religion as false (which it is), and in the hands of some, dangerous.
Living in a free society requires me to live along side those who do not believe as I do. I don’t even have to say “it is ok for you to believe in Islam”. You and I openly opposing abortion is no more intolerant than a neighbor supporting it.

Those who claim that I, as a teacher, cannot silently pray over my lunch in the lunch room and make the sign of the cross are the ones who are intolerant.

Jon
Click to expand...
I guess that’s what I’m afraid of. I don’t want my girls growing up in a violent, negative society. But neither do I want them thinking that it’s ok that their friends are agnostic, anti Catholic, etc.

So tolerance is NOT the same as approval?
 
Speak the truth even if they reject you remember it is not you they are rejecting but christ. if one sees an evil as a christian we have a moral duty to call it evil.
 
Today, I told the Sunday School class that I teach that the world has decided that one of the basic human rights that people have is the right to go to hell without anyone trying to help them learn how to get to heaven.
 
That’s what it feels like, Ralph, doesn’t it? It makes me sad.

Political correctness. Great idea.
 
=heathernoel;5944438]I guess that’s what I’m afraid of. I don’t want my girls growing up in a violent, negative society. But neither do I want them thinking that it’s ok that their friends are agnostic, anti Catholic, etc.
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Being tolerant doesn’t require us to shut up about how society is going, either. In fact, you and I as siblings in Christ may have differing views on how to stop vilence and hate, at least when it comes to legislation and other worldly actions. Of course, we both agree that universal faith in Christ would certainly reduce evil.
I would go further to say that I, as a Lutheran, have a Christian responsibility to speak out against intolerance: things like anti-catholic hatred, the inhumanity of abortion, oppression of women in Islamic countries, and the like.
So tolerance is NOT the same as approval?
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Correct! We also have an obligation to our children to express to them what we’ve been saying, that tolerance does not mean approval, much less agreement.

Jon
 
It’s interesting that you mention this. My wife and I attend RCIA classes as parish sponsors to the current group of (hopefully) soon to be Catholics. Maybe your group is using the same book that mentioned the how the Church is trying to reconcile differences from other denominations, christian, and non-christian alike.

One man in the group talked about how the Catholic church really doesn’t do enough to embrace other teachings, or to at least accept other teachings. And that he wishes they would do more.

My position has always kind of been that we should lean more toward what we have in common with our fellow Christians, embrace the similarities in our beliefs so that we can all battle evil in the world together in one voice.

However when it comes to matters of doctrinal differences. Such as the real presense of Christ in the Eucharist, sacred tradition as a source of devine revelation, etc. I don’t see how this can be reconciled. Protestants broke away from the church for reasons that no longer exist today, it’s their job to realize the truth and come home.
 
06convert said:
However when it comes to matters of doctrinal differences. Such as the real presense of Christ in the Eucharist, sacred tradition as a source of devine revelation, etc. ** I don’t see how this can be reconciled. ** Protestants broke away from the church for reasons that no longer exist today, it’s their job to realize the truth and come home.
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This is probably straying a little off topic, but I would hope that by this you do not exclude ecumenical dialogue. For example, while not complete, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification seems to have brought Catholics and Lutherans somewhat closer to reconciliation, wouldn’t you say?

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Heather,
Being tolerant of others does not mean hiding what you believe, or accepting what they believe. Tolerance means not prohibiting them from holding to their beliefs. Tolerance does not even require me to say that what they believe is as good as what I believe.
I can be tolerant of Muslims, and still reject, vocally if I choose, their religion as false (which it is), and in the hands of some, dangerous.
Living in a free society requires me to live along side those who do not believe as I do. I don’t even have to say “it is ok for you to believe in Islam”. You and I openly opposing abortion is no more intolerant than a neighbor supporting it. Jon/QUOTE

What He said. Letting our light shine will offend. We are in this world but not apart of it…We love and share truth…They either accept or reject it…I ran the office supply at work for many years…The boss knew I was a believer and tolerated that the christian posters and verses I had up…He even didn’t mind me taking time to pray with people coming in there…But I put a orange bumper sticker on the wall that said “abortion is killing a life” and man the complaints came…Boss was down next day and the sticker was history…I was tolerated till someone took offense…We are offended and still are to love…
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I think PC can go to far, but I have no problem with happy holidays. I always try to reverse the situation. How would I feel if I was wished a happy (insert holiday you don’t celebrate here) Gets old. So. I’ve no problem wishing those I don’t know happy holidays and those I know who are Christian a Merry Christmas.
 
06convert said:
My position has always kind of been that we should lean more toward what we have in common with our fellow Christians, embrace the similarities in our beliefs so that we can all battle evil in the world together in one voice.

However when it comes to matters of doctrinal differences. Such as the real presense of Christ in the Eucharist, sacred tradition as a source of devine revelation, etc. I don’t see how this can be reconciled. Protestants broke away from the church for reasons that no longer exist today, it’s their job to realize the truth and come home.
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AHH!! FInally! That’s what I mean! Thank you! I was getting an aneurysm thinking of how to put my thoughts into words!

All these denominations under the title of protestant, which I take to mean denominations that began because of differences with The Church. How can we reconcile ourselves with them? I LOVE my Protestant family and friends, and pray for their conversions daily. But strip away the commonalities…belief in Trinity, Commandments…and what do you have? Us, who believe in the Real Presence, who stand up for social justice, who can trace our roots back to Jesus, and Protestants, who may/may not believe in the real presence, who trace roots back to Protestation of the principles of the Church. Can the two be reconciled? Can we ever truly be as one when the means to our ends are so different?

Disclaimer I am a former Protestant. My entire family, (not my husband and kids, obviously) are Protestants, and firmly believe what they espouse. I’m not bashing Protestants…I just am feeling a little :eek::eek::eek: :confused::confused::confused:🤷
 
heathernoel said:
!

All these denominations under the title of protestant, which I take to mean denominations that began because of differences with The Church. How can we reconcile ourselves with them? I LOVE my Protestant family and friends, and pray for their conversions daily. But strip away the commonalities…belief in Trinity, Commandments…and what do you have? Us, who believe in the Real Presence, who stand up for social justice, who can trace our roots back to Jesus, and Protestants, who may/may not believe in the real presence, who trace roots back to Protestation of the principles of the Church. Can the two be reconciled? Can we ever truly be as one when the means to our ends are so different?
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Give a little persecution and hard times ahead and see who comes together…Beside that "christian’’ those who trust in Christ for salvation will be together with Him in the end…Will the labels/belief differences even be an issue then…We’ll all see through the glass clearly…He those who are His and who are the tares mixed among us all.
 
I see your point. In the end, His children, whether they had one title or the other, will still be His. So why the differences?

So it’s come full circle again. Yup. Clear as mud 🙂

Thank you all for indulging me. This was one of those classes that I wished could go on for an hour more.
 
heathernoel said:
Us, who believe in the Real Presence, who stand up for social justice, who can trace our roots back to Jesus, and Protestants, who may/may not believe in the real presence, who trace roots back to Protestation of the principles of the Church. Can the two be reconciled? Can we ever truly be as one when the means to our ends are so different?
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First, Lutherans, at least, and Catholics share a joint tracing to Pentecost. We do not view the histroy of the Church as starting in 1530.

Secondly, how are the means to our ends so different that the Holy Spirit is incapable of bringing us to reconciliation? Do we not together preach Christ and Him crucified? Is Christ not the means to our ends? I would contend that either at some point here in this world, or perhaps at His return, we will be reconciled. The bigger question is, are we capable of treating each other as brothers and sisters in Christ intil then? That is not a question of tolerance, but instead one of Christian love and charity.

Jon
 
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