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UncleBill
Guest
Spoken like a true protestant!
- Status
A
ajecphotos
Guest
No!
I am a catholic and I kneel all the time, even when no kneelers available.
Just being in the presence of God is what should matter the most.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
I agree with you. Yes, one should follow what the Church is requiring, but some things are also not worth creating a huge fight over if it is a norm of a particular Parish. I think especially where there are differences in kneeling and standing even between the Eastern Rite and the Latin Rite, it absolutely shows that your body position is not one of the critical things to Salvation. That being said, to refuse to kneel when everyone in a Parish is, is defiant and in the wrong spirit. I think a lot of it is an overall mental attitude that is important.
Definitely.
However I don’t think we are really discussing cases where people (who lack a special reason to stand) are deliberately standing while the rest of the people are kneeling.
The important question for this thread is if one is attending a Mass in a Latin parish, if the bishop and pastor request standing during the Eucharistic Prayer due to a lack of kneelers, can or should an individual insist on kneeling anyway?
Disclaimer: Of course there are people who are physically unable to stand or kneel. They are exceptional cases and not what is being discussed.
M
MSSheBear
Guest
I am tempted to kneel during Daily Mass since we have kneelers in the Chapel. I don’t during the Sunday Mass in the main Church because I would probably distract people who would be betting on whether I could get up again.
I am also tempted at times to veil or wear a hat.I think I am too tired to articulate what I mean, but I assume our priest is picking up from the Eastern rite in order to fit local conditions, not out of disrespect for the Eucharist. Any of the parishes with kneelers kneel during the Consecration. The nearest EF is an 11 mile bike ride away.
J
jcld
Guest
This is very worthwhile to read… Good thing there’s newadvent.org… Please buy that newadvent cd… just $19 now (FREE SHIPPING promotion now)… 
This is indeed a “GREAT BUY” since the contents taken from the original (old-hard-bound) materials cost $1000+ Buying it is for a good cause as well
A gesture of reverence (from newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm )
Coming to the first Christians, of St. Stephen we read: “And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying”, etc. (Acts 7:59); of the Prince of the Apostles: “Peter kneeling down prayed” (Acts 9:40); of St. Paul: “kneeling down, he prayed with them all” (Acts 20:36; cf. 21:5). It would seem that the kneeling posture for prayer speedily became habitual among the faithful. Of St. James, the brother of the Lord, tradition relates that from his continual kneeling his knees had become callous as those of a camel (Eusebius, Church History II.23; Brev. Rom., 1 May). For St. Paul the expressions “to pray” and “to bow the knee” to God are complementary (cf. Philippians 2:10; Ephesians 3:14, etc.). Tertullian (To Scapula 4) treats kneeling and praying as practically synonymous. And when forgiveness of offences has to be besought, Origen (De Orat., 31) goes so far as to maintain that a kneeling posture is necessary.
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This is peculiar to the Roman Rite, and consists in the momentary bending of one or both knees so as to touch the earth. Genuflecting, understood in this sense, has now almost everywhere in the Western Church been substituted for the profound bowing down of head and body that formerly obtained, and that is still maintained in the East as the supreme act of liturgical reverence. It is laid down by modern authorities that a genuflexion includes every sort of inclination, so that any bowing while kneeling is, as a rule, superfluous (Martinucci, Man. Sacr. Cærem., I, i, nn. 5 and 6). There are certain exceptions, however, to this rule, in the liturgical cultus of the Blessed Sacrament. The practice of genuflecting has no claim to antiquity of origin. It appears to have been introduced and gradually to have spread in the West during the later Middle Ages, and scarcely to have been generally looked upon as obligatory before the end of the fifteenth century. The older Roman Missals make no mention of it. Father Thurston gives A.D. 1502 as the date of the formal and semi-official recognition of these genuflexions. Even after it became usual to raise the consecrated Host and Chalice for the adoration of the Faithful after the Consecration, it was long before the priest’s preceding and following genuflexions were insisted upon (see Thurston in “The Month”, Oct., 1897). The genuflexions now indicated at such words as “Et incarnatus est”, “Et Verbum caro factum est”, and the like, are likewise of comparatively recent introduction, though in some cases they replace a prostration that was usual, in ancient times, when the same sacred words were solemnly uttered (see, for instance, in regard to the “Et incarnatus”, the curious passage in the work of Radulphus Tongrensis (De can. observ.). The Carthusian custom of bending the knee, yet so as not to touch the ground, is curious; and has interest from the historical point of view as testifying to the reluctance formerly felt by many to the modern practice of genuflecting. See also the Decree of the S. Cong. of Rites (n. 3402) of 7 July, 1876, insisting that women as well as men must genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament. The simple bending of the knee, unlike prostration, cannot be traced to sources outside Christian worship. Thus, the pagan and classical gesture of adoration consisted in the standing before the being or thing to be worshipped, in putting the right hand to the mouth (ad ora), and in turning the body to the right. The act of falling down, or prostration, was introduced in Rome when the Cæsars brought from the East the Oriental custom of worshipping the emperors in this manner as gods. “Caium Cæsarem adorari ut deum constituit cum reversus ex Syria non aliter adire ausus esset quam capite velato circumvertensque se, deinde procumbens” (Suet., Vit., ii). The liturgical rules for genuflecting are now very definite.
This is indeed a “GREAT BUY” since the contents taken from the original (old-hard-bound) materials cost $1000+ Buying it is for a good cause as well A gesture of reverence (from newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm )
Coming to the first Christians, of St. Stephen we read: “And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying”, etc. (Acts 7:59); of the Prince of the Apostles: “Peter kneeling down prayed” (Acts 9:40); of St. Paul: “kneeling down, he prayed with them all” (Acts 20:36; cf. 21:5). It would seem that the kneeling posture for prayer speedily became habitual among the faithful. Of St. James, the brother of the Lord, tradition relates that from his continual kneeling his knees had become callous as those of a camel (Eusebius, Church History II.23; Brev. Rom., 1 May). For St. Paul the expressions “to pray” and “to bow the knee” to God are complementary (cf. Philippians 2:10; Ephesians 3:14, etc.). Tertullian (To Scapula 4) treats kneeling and praying as practically synonymous. And when forgiveness of offences has to be besought, Origen (De Orat., 31) goes so far as to maintain that a kneeling posture is necessary.
:
:
This is peculiar to the Roman Rite, and consists in the momentary bending of one or both knees so as to touch the earth. Genuflecting, understood in this sense, has now almost everywhere in the Western Church been substituted for the profound bowing down of head and body that formerly obtained, and that is still maintained in the East as the supreme act of liturgical reverence. It is laid down by modern authorities that a genuflexion includes every sort of inclination, so that any bowing while kneeling is, as a rule, superfluous (Martinucci, Man. Sacr. Cærem., I, i, nn. 5 and 6). There are certain exceptions, however, to this rule, in the liturgical cultus of the Blessed Sacrament. The practice of genuflecting has no claim to antiquity of origin. It appears to have been introduced and gradually to have spread in the West during the later Middle Ages, and scarcely to have been generally looked upon as obligatory before the end of the fifteenth century. The older Roman Missals make no mention of it. Father Thurston gives A.D. 1502 as the date of the formal and semi-official recognition of these genuflexions. Even after it became usual to raise the consecrated Host and Chalice for the adoration of the Faithful after the Consecration, it was long before the priest’s preceding and following genuflexions were insisted upon (see Thurston in “The Month”, Oct., 1897). The genuflexions now indicated at such words as “Et incarnatus est”, “Et Verbum caro factum est”, and the like, are likewise of comparatively recent introduction, though in some cases they replace a prostration that was usual, in ancient times, when the same sacred words were solemnly uttered (see, for instance, in regard to the “Et incarnatus”, the curious passage in the work of Radulphus Tongrensis (De can. observ.). The Carthusian custom of bending the knee, yet so as not to touch the ground, is curious; and has interest from the historical point of view as testifying to the reluctance formerly felt by many to the modern practice of genuflecting. See also the Decree of the S. Cong. of Rites (n. 3402) of 7 July, 1876, insisting that women as well as men must genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament. The simple bending of the knee, unlike prostration, cannot be traced to sources outside Christian worship. Thus, the pagan and classical gesture of adoration consisted in the standing before the being or thing to be worshipped, in putting the right hand to the mouth (ad ora), and in turning the body to the right. The act of falling down, or prostration, was introduced in Rome when the Cæsars brought from the East the Oriental custom of worshipping the emperors in this manner as gods. “Caium Cæsarem adorari ut deum constituit cum reversus ex Syria non aliter adire ausus esset quam capite velato circumvertensque se, deinde procumbens” (Suet., Vit., ii). The liturgical rules for genuflecting are now very definite.
- All genuflect (bending both knees) when adoring the Blessed Sacrament unveiled, as at Expositions.
- All genuflect (bending the right knee only) when doing reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, enclosed in the Tabernacle, or lying upon the corporal during the Mass. Mass-servers are not to genuflect, save when the Blessed Sacrament is at the altar where Mass is being said (cf. Wapelhorst, infra). The same honour is paid to a relic of the True Cross when exposed for public veneration.
- The clergy in liturgical functions genuflect on one knee to the cross over the high altar, and likewise in passing before the bishop of the diocese when he presides at a ceremony. From these genuflexions, however, an officiating priest, as also all prelates, canons, etc., are dispensed, bowing of the head and shoulders being substituted for the genuflexion.
- On Good Friday, after the ceremony of the Adoration of the Cross, and until Holy Saturday, all, clergy and laity alike, genuflect in passing before the unveiled cross upon the high altar.
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paperwight66
Guest
That article from New Advent is a little out-of-date. the obligation to genuflect on both knees was removed in the 1970’s… This makes perfect sense, as the Real Presence is the same whether exposed or behind the door of the Tabernacle. In other words, any mandated sign of reverence should be the same for both - either go down on both knees for both, or on one knee for both… The Church chose the latter. Which isn’t to say that it is wrong to genuflect on both knees, but that it would be wrong to criticise someone else for not doing so.
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jcld
Guest
Actually, it is still roughly 80% popular and the Church still uses both today… especially in Opus Dei… You have the option to use any technique
Of course during Veneration of the Cross, Exposition and Consecration, double genuflection is ALWAYS utilised.
But for a few parish (around the world), the practice may not be so popular anymore.
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paperwight66
Guest
Where did you get the 80% figure from?Actually, it is still roughly 80% popular and the Church still uses both today… especially in Opus Dei… You have the option to use any technique
Of course during Veneration of the Cross, Exposition and Consecration, double genuflection is ALWAYS utilised.
But for a few parish (around the world), the practice may not be so popular anymore.
J
jcld
Guest
I based it upon all the parishes that I’ve attended… Including the Philippines, & Singapore.
No, it’s definitely not a match for UK… You guys think less conservatively right ?
I’ve heard stories that there is more older (gray haired) persons going to mass there compared to the younger generation…
In the Philippines and Singapore, more younger people go to mass…
You will almost not find a trace of old (gray haired) persons in the mass…
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UncleBill
Guest
Certainly seems about right choir what I have experienced in the US.I based it upon all the parishes that I’ve attended… Including the Philippines, & Singapore.
No, it’s definitely not a match for UK… You guys think less conservatively right ?
J
jcld
Guest
PLUS, I also remember horrible stories, that in Europe, it has become the culture of death… embracing abortion… divorce… etc etc HENCE, in Europe, you find in church JUST a few old (gray haired) folks attending mass… AND the youngsters are all not in church performing sins against the ChurchI based it upon all the parishes that I’ve attended… Including the Philippines, & Singapore.
No, it’s definitely not a match for UK… You guys think less conservatively right ?
I’ve heard stories that there is more older (gray haired) persons going to mass there compared to the younger generation…
In the Philippines and Singapore, more younger people go to mass…
You will almost not find a trace of old (gray haired) persons in the mass…
I don’t really know how true the stories are though
C
Corki
Guest
The article you copied stated that genuflecting on both knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed was part of the “definite” “liturgical rules”. It’s not. The current rules only call for a normal genuflection.Actually, it is still roughly 80% popular and the Church still uses both today… especially in Opus Dei… You have the option to use any technique
Of course during Veneration of the Cross, Exposition and Consecration, double genuflection is ALWAYS utilised.
But for a few parish (around the world), the practice may not be so popular anymore.
There is a pius practice of continuing with the tradition of genuflecting on both knees and many people do that. But it’s not a “rule” anymore.
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UncleBill
Guest
Ya need to get over the rules and do what holy tradition tells us.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
Personally, I think it should work in the reverse too. If the Priest/Bishop asks you to stand, to argue with that is not worth it.
I
Imcatholic7
Guest
I have a “mission” parish closest to me that does not have kneelers. Nor is their tabernacle in the front but rather in a back room (which has kneelers). I do not attend this parish but one farther away.
O
onmyknees
Guest
I forgot to mention that most of those churches from the 70’s don’t have the tabernacle up on the back altar. They don’t even have a back altar. It is hard to find where they have hidden Jesus. 
In my church the new pastor did not like that Jesus was stuck off to the side of the church in a chapel. He said that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and so he changed it. He put the tabernacle on a marble back altar front and center. Now we don’t need to say, “Oh where have they taken our Lord?” I am so thankful to him for doing this!
In my church the new pastor did not like that Jesus was stuck off to the side of the church in a chapel. He said that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and so he changed it. He put the tabernacle on a marble back altar front and center. Now we don’t need to say, “Oh where have they taken our Lord?” I am so thankful to him for doing this!
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jcld
Guest
I understand your point Brother… and I understand the rites are different… Mind you that we are helping each other out here and that I’m merely pertaining to the Tradition of the Latin Rite Catholics…
in a way, we are kind-of debating… But it’s all for our own good as well… True enough that the body position does not determine if we will have Salvation…Since we are humans, and God is human as well (Jesus Christ) and He understands what humans feel and do and act and perform… etc
THEREFORE, we must also treat God like a human, in the way that we treat humans…
God is the King of Kings, King of all universes and all that encapsulate universes. He is the Royalty of Royalties.
To treat the God like royalty, we must base upon what we humans personally do to human royalties…
With that in mind, we have to make our love (feeling,doing,acting,performing,etc) for God personal as well…
THEREFORE, if we bow down to human royalty… WE SHOULD DO MORE for God!
It is kind of personal because, you can lay flat on upon the floor for human-sinning-royalties… BUT you cannot simply single-leggedly-kneel down to God!
They say it’s not personal… HEY! I F YOU WERE GOD… AND YOU SAW THESE PEOPLE KNEELING DOWN TO MERE SINNING-HUMAN-ROYALTY AND THEY COULD NOT KNEEL TO YOU DURING WORSHIP… WHAT WOULD YOU THINK ?.. WE CAN FEEL THAT GOD IS HURT … RIGHT ?
The Old Testament talks a lot about this ! Our God is a human God. He has feelings too!If I use your observation/opinion, God would say… "Hey it’s ok even if you don’t kneel to me. After all, WHO AM I TO YOU ANYWAY ? "
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
It is a good point about cultural traditions of respect. I think that does get complicated if you are from America (the melting pot of the world). We stand out of respect during our National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance. We would likely shake our President’s hand, not kneel at his feet, so I don’t think kneeling is probably engrained in our culture.I understand your point Brother… and I understand the rites are different… Mind you that we are helping each other out here and that I’m merely pertaining to the Tradition of the Latin Rite Catholics…
Since we are humans, and God is human as well (Jesus Christ) and He understands what humans feel and do and act and perform… etc
THEREFORE, we must also treat God like a human, in the way that we treat humans…
God is the King of Kings, King of all universes and all that encapsulate universes. He is the Royalty of Royalties.
To treat the God like royalty, we must base upon what we humans personally do to human royalties…
With that in mind, we have to make our love (feeling,doing,acting,performing,etc) for God personal as well…
THEREFORE, if we bow down to human royalty… WE SHOULD DO MORE for God!
It is kind of personal because, you can lay flat on upon the floor for human-sinning-royalties… BUT you cannot simply single-leggedly-kneel down to God!
They say it’s not personal… HEY! I F YOU WERE GOD… AND YOU SAW THESE PEOPLE KNEELING DOWN TO MERE SINNING-HUMAN-ROYALTY AND THEY COULD NOT KNEEL TO YOU DURING WORSHIP… WHAT WOULD YOU THINK ?.. WE CAN FEEL THAT GOD IS HURT … RIGHT ?
If I use your observation/opinion, God would say… "Hey it’s ok even if you don’t kneel to me. After all, WHO AM I TO YOU ANYWAY ? "
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