No Kneelers in some catholic churches?

[Brendan]

We our parish was undergoing an expansion, we had Mass in the parish hall for several weeks.

We used just normal chairs on a floor of carpet over concrete. Everyone who was physically able knelt at the appropriate times.

 

[UncleBill]

Our parish has no kneelers. There is no kneeling at Mass, either. Pebbly stone floors would make it an act of corporeal punishment, and one would stand out as trying to “show others up.” Our pews are long rows of attached wooden chairs, so it is somewhat like a typical pew, except that everyone has a specific seat. The hymnals go into slots between each chair.

This is not done out of irreverence to Christ, as our parish is reverent. Just a difference in style. We stand when some others would kneel, in the same way you would stand to greet a dignitary or stand when someone important joined your dining party. We bow profoundly when the priest elevates the species.

It seems odd now when I go to other parishes that do kneel, as I am totally out of the practice.

Latin tradition says we kneel at Mass. Any attempt to make it inconvenient for the congregation to kneel is irreverent!
Irreverent!

 

[Tsuwano]

Many churches in Japan, including very old churches, often have no kneelers. People bow with respect. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, but not kneeling for Japanese Catholics does not make them less holy or less Catholic.

 

[Elizium23]

Many churches in Japan, including very old churches, often have no kneelers. People bow with respect. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, but not kneeling for Japanese Catholics does not make them less holy or less Catholic.

Well, that is debatable. In the Roman Rite, kneeling is prescribed at various points in the liturgy. That is universal for the Rite. Are Japanese Catholics Roman Rite, or do they celebrate in some other Rite that does not kneel (Byzantine)?

 

[JackieMom]

Latin tradition says we kneel at Mass. Any attempt to make it inconvenient for the congregation to kneel is irreverent!
Irreverent!

It’s irreverent if you intend for it to be irreverent.

Our parish has been this way since 1995, so I’m pretty sure we would have been “busted” by now if there was an actual problem. Especially since this is a wealthy parish that could easily install kneelers tomorrow if they were asked to. Of course, if someone finds it bothersome, there is another church in town that has pews and kneelers, so the option isn’t off the table. As it is, our parish has over 5,000 happy members.

 

[Corki]

Our parish has no kneelers. There is no kneeling at Mass, either. Pebbly stone floors would make it an act of corporeal punishment, and one would stand out as trying to “show others up.” Our pews are long rows of attached wooden chairs, so it is somewhat like a typical pew, except that everyone has a specific seat. The hymnals go into slots between each chair.

**This is not done out of irreverence to Christ, as our parish is reverent. **

I don’t think it is irreverent but rather disobedient. Whoever designed the parish that way certainly knew that there were parts of the Mass where Latin Catholics are required to kneel. He/she ignored that in the design of the Church and decided that his/her opinion was of greater worth than the directives of the Church. And somehow the Bishop let him/her get away with it. Why someone would design a Church that is not in harmony with the Liturgy is beyond me.

And as you point out, the parish could easily afford to install kneelers. So, the disobedience isn’t only from the architect but on the current liturgist - the pastor.

I sympathize. I am in a parish where the prior pastor did the same thing. The Church was built about 15 years ago. We have no kneelers and they did not formerly kneel during Mass. Fortunately, we got a new pastor about 10 years ago and now we kneel at the prescribed times. It’s not ideal since, as in your parish, the design of the Church does not fit the Liturgy but we manage.

 

[SMHW]

It’s irreverent if you intend for it to be irreverent.

Our parish has been this way since 1995, so I’m pretty sure we would have been “busted” by now if there was an actual problem. Especially since this is a wealthy parish that could easily install kneelers tomorrow if they were asked to. Of course, if someone finds it bothersome, there is another church in town that has pews and kneelers, so the option isn’t off the table. As it is, our parish has over 5,000 happy members.

I don’t think it is irreverent but rather disobedient. Whoever designed the parish that way certainly knew that there were parts of the Mass where Latin Catholics are required to kneel. He/she ignored that in the design of the Church and decided that his/her opinion was of greater worth than the directives of the Church. And somehow the Bishop let him/her get away with it. Why someone would design a Church that is not in harmony with the Liturgy is beyond me.

And as you point out, the parish could easily afford to install kneelers. So, the disobedience isn’t only from the architect but on the current liturgist - the pastor.

I sympathize. I am in a parish where the prior pastor did the same thing. The Church was built about 15 years ago. We have no kneelers and they did not formerly kneel during Mass. Fortunately, we got a new pastor about 10 years ago and now we kneel at the prescribed times. It’s not ideal since, as in your parish, the design of the Church does not fit the Liturgy but we manage.

JackieMom, you’ve got me wondering if we attend the same parish. But you mentioned something once about a parish school and my parish does not have one.

Corki, starting in the late 1970s and continuing on until at least the late 1990s there seemed be be this common idea here in California (and apparently in many other places) that the Eastern Catholics had things right about standing during the Eucharistic prayer and that Rome would soon make standing the proscribed position. In fact when I was in college the local bishop (different province from my home diocese) instructed the people to stand.

I truly believe that many American Catholics (including clergy) were shocked when the 2002 version of GIRM approved for the United States did not make standing during the Eucharistic Prayer an option like was the case with standing from the Lamb of God through communion. I suspect lots of Catholics figured it was a mistake that would soon be corrected. All those churches built in the 1990s and early 2000s were built without kneelers because the parishes thought they wouldn’t be needed. Crazy thinking? Maybe. But I would not be surprised if that line from Pirates of Carribean about the pirate’s code being mostly guidelines was inspired by what seminaries were teaching about the GIRM.

I know that at my parish our previous pastor once said that he was concerned that he would have to purchase kneelers but he was apparently instructed by the diocese that churches built in a certain time period would not be expected to install kneelers and that the lack of kneelers would be considered sufficient reason to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer and make a profound bow after the consecration.

It is my suspicion that my parish WILL eventually install kneelers on the backs of the chairs. But I would be very surprised it happens in the next five years. And I would not be surprised if it takes twice that long or longer.

 

[Lucky7]

Our parish has been this way since 1995, so I’m pretty sure we would have been “busted” by now if there was an actual problem.

EH, not necessarily. I once wrote a bishop about a similar situation I found in a diocese I was visiting one weekend. He did nothing about it. Just because a bishop doesn’t bust a parish doesn’t necessarily mean there is nothing wrong with what a parish is doing.

It just so happens this same bishop allows pro-abortion politicians to receive communion too.

Coincidence? Somehow I don’t think so.

 

[Lucky7]

I don’t think it is irreverent but rather disobedient. Whoever designed the parish that way certainly knew that there were parts of the Mass where Latin Catholics are required to kneel. He/she ignored that in the design of the Church and decided that his/her opinion was of greater worth than the directives of the Church. And somehow the Bishop let him/her get away with it.

Or this.

 

[TruthAndLuv]

I attended a lecture at a Catholic University near where I live and thought I would stop in at the church there to say a prayer. The church has no pews, only upholstered seats, and there were no kneelers. I thought this was strange but then I was looking through Father Barron’s Catholicism book and was seeing some of the pictures of the churches in Jerusalem. Those don’t look like they have kneelers either.

 

[Caitliceach]

kneeling on the floor (as in without a kneeler) is the norm at my parish

 

[Elizium23]

I recently attended two Masses in a non-sacred space with a group of Catholics who are all members of the same organization, known for orthodoxy and reverence, and I noticed a thing about lack of kneelers. It’s a big huge signal to most Catholics that “KNEELING NOT NECESSARY HERE”. Out of 100+ people attending, three were kneeling at appropriate points. I don’t think it was any less reverent of those standing; many were elderly and may not have been physically able. But when you build a space without provision for kneeling, you’ve got to understand that you’re sending out a negative signal to worshippers in there. It doesn’t matter what Rome has said or what the bishop does or what the liturgical laws are on the books, it’s just a simple fact of human psychology that people will follow the crowd, and the crowd assumes that lack of kneelers equals no need to do it.

Certainly, some pastoral correction could probably solve that problem quickly. If a parish pastor teaches the faithful adequately that they must kneel then it becomes the custom, and you will spot outsiders who are reluctant to go down as easily as the regulars. But woe to the parish who establishes customs to the contrary, because they must understand that they are sending out the faithful poorly catechized and bad habits are hard to break. “But we don’t kneel in St. B parish! Why should I kneel here?”

 

[Mike30]

JackieMom, you’ve got me wondering if we attend the same parish. But you mentioned something once about a parish school and my parish does not have one.

Corki, starting in the late 1970s and continuing on until at least the late 1990s there seemed be be this common idea here in California (and apparently in many other places) that the Eastern Catholics had things right about standing during the Eucharistic prayer and that Rome would soon make standing the proscribed position. In fact when I was in college the local bishop (different province from my home diocese) instructed the people to stand.

I truly believe that many American Catholics (including clergy) were shocked when the 2002 version of GIRM approved for the United States did not make standing during the Eucharistic Prayer an option like was the case with standing from the Lamb of God through communion. I suspect lots of Catholics figured it was a mistake that would soon be corrected. All those churches built in the 1990s and early 2000s were built without kneelers because the parishes thought they wouldn’t be needed. Crazy thinking? Maybe. But I would not be surprised if that line from Pirates of Carribean about the pirate’s code being mostly guidelines was inspired by what seminaries were teaching about the GIRM.

I know that at my parish our previous pastor once said that he was concerned that he would have to purchase kneelers but he was apparently instructed by the diocese that churches built in a certain time period would not be expected to install kneelers and that the lack of kneelers would be considered sufficient reason to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer and make a profound bow after the consecration.

It is my suspicion that my parish WILL eventually install kneelers on the backs of the chairs. But I would be very surprised it happens in the next five years. And I would not be surprised if it takes twice that long or longer.

I have to agree with you on this one. When I went though catechist training in California, it was done at a Latin Rite parish that had no kneelers, anywhere and in place of statues etc, had numerous icons located near the entrance to the nave. The master catechist and the Priest in their explanation stated unequivocally that the Easterns and the Orthodox had been right on a number of issues and the Roman Church wrong, and that this particular Parish was an attempt to merge the two Churches.

Did I forget to say that at this particular Parish the Nicene Creed was also said in the Orthodox Manner, ie: minue the Filioque?

 

[babochka]

I have to agree with you on this one. When I went though catechist training in California, it was done at a Latin Rite parish that had no kneelers, anywhere and in place of statues etc, had numerous icons located near the entrance to the nave. The master catechist and the Priest in their explanation stated unequivocally that the Easterns and the Orthodox had been right on a number of issues and the Roman Church wrong, and that this particular Parish was an attempt to merge the two Churches.

Did I forget to say that at this particular Parish the Nicene Creed was also said in the Orthodox Manner, ie: minue the Filioque?

Wow, that’s weird… and very wrong.

Perhaps if the master catechist and priest feel this way, they should consider moving to an eastern church, rather than trying to impose eastern ways on a Latin Rite church. Both are equally valid and venerable traditions and make the most sense when fully implemented within their proper context.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Since this particular thread concerns kneelers in a Latin Rite Church, I fail to see the relevence of discussing why Eastern Catholics don’t kneel.

In the Latin Rite, we do kneel and have done so for a long long time, irregerdless of what the Eastern Catholics do or don’t do. They have their traditions and we have ours.

If there are no kneelers, as there are not in a lot of Churches worldwide, kneel anyway as the rubrics do call for it. Kneelers are not essential anyway, anymore than are communion rails necessary to receive Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue.

Well, I think it puts minds at ease that kneeling vs. standing is not a matter of salvation. Eastern Catholics are able to stand during these Mass parts and still be in communion with Rome. However, yes, it makes more sense in the Roman Catholic Church to build churches that include kneelers.

 

[altms]

My local parish has no kneelers, only chairs! It was the only church I went to till when I was a teen; when I entered another church I was surprised!

I’ve never had a problem kneeling. Although there are very occasional times when I pulled out (once there was NO space to stand up, and this other time I was outside on grass with shorts, and this other time I cramped up).

I do understand the issues with space, as a result I occupy the front row!

 

[Lucky7]

I have to agree with you on this one. When I went though catechist training in California, it was done at a Latin Rite parish that had no kneelers, anywhere and in place of statues etc, had numerous icons located near the entrance to the nave. The master catechist and the Priest in their explanation stated unequivocally that the Easterns and the Orthodox had been right on a number of issues and the Roman Church wrong, and that this particular Parish was an attempt to merge the two Churches.

Did I forget to say that at this particular Parish the Nicene Creed was also said in the Orthodox Manner, ie: minue the Filioque?

Um, wut?? I think I’ve now heard everything.

 

[Tsuwano]

Well, that is debatable. In the Roman Rite, kneeling is prescribed at various points in the liturgy. That is universal for the Rite. Are Japanese Catholics Roman Rite, or do they celebrate in some other Rite that does not kneel (Byzantine)?

No, Japanese Roman Catholics are as Catholic as Catholics from other nations. Why there are no kneelers, even in very old churches, I cannot say for certainty. Perhaps it is a cultural thing or perhaps it is because the Japanese Church is a missionary church. Nevertheless, I disagree that it is debatable that Japanese Catholics are less holy or less Catholic simply because there are no kneelers in many of the Churches. One would think that the great number of martyrs Japan has given to the Church over the centuries since St. Francis Xavier preached the Gospel here, would have proved the holiness and Catholicity of the Church in Japan . . . with or without kneelers.

 

[Corki]

No, Japanese Roman Catholics are as Catholic as Catholics from other nations. Why there are no kneelers, even in very old churches, I cannot say for certainty. Perhaps it is a cultural thing or perhaps it is because the Japanese Church is a missionary church. Nevertheless, I disagree that it is debatable that Japanese Catholics are less holy or less Catholic simply because there are no kneelers in many of the Churches. One would think that the great number of martyrs Japan has given to the Church over the centuries since St. Francis Xavier preached the Gospel here, would have proved the holiness and Catholicity of the Church in Japan . . . with or without kneelers.

In some Asian countries, there is a local adaption to the GIRM that substitutes a deep bow for kneeling. Is it possible that this is the case for Japan? There is no such adaption for the US which is what we are discussing here.

The point is that this is an important part of the liturgy and not within the authority of a priest or even a bishop to change on his own. There is a process for local adaptation to the postures prescribed in the GIRM. If a priest took it upon himself to make the change without going through the process of seeking an adaptation through the CDW, then I would say he is somewhat less holy for the reason that he is being publicly disobedient and giving scandal to the faithful.

 

[jcld]

What’s this about? If I can’t make mass at my parish I’ll go to St. Paschal’s at a later time…however, they have no kneelers??? I find this very disrespectful to our faith…apparently this is a “Progressive parish.” Has anyone else witnessed this?

No offense meant Brother I believe, the early Christians did not have any kneelers during their time… Just think of those early Christians…

In the presence of our Lord and King Jesus Christ ( in the form of a leavened or unleavened bread or during transubstantiation )… with or without kneelers, we must kneel to show our fullest respect for our God… especially during consecration ( for Western Catholics ) …

I mean… At monarchical nations, the people lay flat upon the floor and they CANNOT look straight at just a (HUMAN) king whenever that human king is present among them… JUST THINK ABOUT THIS… we should actually do more more and more for our God ! Those royal-blooded-ordinary-sinning-human-kings-queens-princes-princesses gather respect from other-ordinary-humans like ourselves… AND… we could not do more for our Lord Jesus just because there are no kneelers ?

No offense meant Brother… BUT It is “insulting” for our Lord Jesus.

Aside from kneelers… I see people dress beautiful clothes at the presence of a human-royalty or a human-government-official or a human-celebrity… etc… BUT those same people can only dress simple ordinary clothes at our Lord’s gathering (worship)… It’s the same lost cause:| No respect for our Lord

The bottom-line is… with or without kneelers, we must still kneel down to our Lord’s presence