No Kneelers

[mullenpm]

Last night I watched a rebroadcast of a program with Mother Angelica on EWTN. The original broadcast was in 1996.

At that time, and for most of her active life in the Church, Mother Angelica was considered a heretic by, as she called them, “her liberal friends” in the Church.

Last night her theme was “losing yourself.” She answered one viewer when he asked about kneeling at the Consecration and she asked that person what he would do if he approached the Tabernacle and there stood Jesus.

She said you would do more than just kneel before Him. You would fall on your face before Him and prostrate yourself.

She spoke about attending a Mass where people stood but most kneeled and she said one man standing in front of her crossed his arms in front of himself and stood in a position of almost defiance - standing is such a prideful stance.

She also spoke about those same liberals in the Church, including many Priests, who vilified her for speaking about frequent Confession, Purgatory, and Hell and said that they will answer at the time of Judgment not only for their own sins but also for the sins of those souls they have lead astray by their false teaching.

Of course there are exceptions to kneeling at the Consecration and those exceptions are spelled out in the GIRM, and I am not sure why those very specific exceptions should come into question. None of the exceptions have anything to do with a Catholic Church without kneelers.

The GIRM is there to show us how our rituals are to take form; they are the same as traffic lights and traffic laws. We would be in a fine mess in the Church if everyone could just ignore the Rubics and do as they pleased; unfortunately, that is what is happening in many Catholic churches.

There is nothing wrong with kneeling on the carpet or the floor if one is physically able to do so; many are not.

And why are you at Mass; you are there to adore the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. That is why you are there. And you MUST kneel before God.:knight2::knight1:

 

[bmadamsberry]

Last night I watched a rebroadcast of a program with Mother Angelica on EWTN. The original broadcast was in 1996.

At that time, and for most of her active life in the Church, Mother Angelica was considered a heretic by, as she called them, “her liberal friends” in the Church.

Last night her theme was “losing yourself.” She answered one viewer when he asked about kneeling at the Consecration and she asked that person what he would do if he approached the Tabernacle and there stood Jesus.

She said you would do more than just kneel before Him. You would fall on your face before Him and prostrate yourself.

She spoke about attending a Mass where people stood but most kneeled and she said one man standing in front of her crossed his arms in front of himself and stood in a position of almost defiance - standing is such a prideful stance.

She also spoke about those same liberals in the Church, including many Priests, who vilified her for speaking about frequent Confession, Purgatory, and Hell and said that they will answer at the time of Judgment not only for their own sins but also for the sins of those souls they have lead astray by their false teaching.

Of course there are exceptions to kneeling at the Consecration and those exceptions are spelled out in the GIRM, and I am not sure why those very specific exceptions should come into question. None of the exceptions have anything to do with a Catholic Church without kneelers.

The GIRM is there to show us how our rituals are to take form; they are the same as traffic lights and traffic laws. We would be in a fine mess in the Church if everyone could just ignore the Rubics and do as they pleased; unfortunately, that is what is happening in many Catholic churches.

There is nothing wrong with kneeling on the carpet or the floor if one is physically able to do so; many are not.

And why are you at Mass; you are there to adore the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. That is why you are there. And you MUST kneel before God.:knight2::knight1:

And I agree and have said nothing to to contrary, although I still don’t always agree with Mother Angelica. But just because someone does not kneel at Mass, we cannot assume that what they are doing is wrong because we do not know their situation. In fact, I would say that we should assume that they do have a good reason for what they are doing. Kneelers not being in a church does not warrent an automatic label of “liberal”. Maybe there truely isn’t funding (this is not the case in the OP’s situation). Maybe there isn’t any room for kneelers.

I also think we shouldn’t be quick to assume that when we see Christ we will kneel. I, myself, think that people will react in different ways. I think that some people will look at him and fall prostrate, some will kneel, some will stand in awe. Just like I think some people will shout for joy when they see Christ, and some will be unable to speak.

 

[peary2]

In the early Church (at least the first few hundred years or so, maybe more), it was usual for Christians to stand during Mass. If they knelt, it was a genuflection. This was because in the Jewish Church the custom was to pray standing.

In the early 6th century, Saint Benedict instructed his monks that if they were absent from choir, that they should recite the Divine Office kneeling.

The correct posture at Mass is actually standing. Even the Council of Nicea (325 AD) in its 20th canon proscribed standing:

“Because there are some who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost [the fifty days between Easter and Whit-Sunday]: that all things may be uniformly performed in every parish or diocese, it seems good to the Holy Synod that the prayers [tas euchas] be by all made to God, standing.”

The ‘origin’ of the kneeler actually comes from Irish churches, and this from the Benedictine monastic tradition in Ireland. When the Irish came to the U.S., so did the custom which influenced practically all other Catholic churches in America. You won’t find that custom in most of Europe’s Catholic Churches because it is not their tradition. I don’t think St. Peter’s has kneelers.

 

[bmadamsberry]

In the early Church (at least the first few hundred years or so, maybe more), it was usual for Christians to stand during Mass. If they knelt, it was a genuflection. This was because in the Jewish Church the custom was to pray standing.

In the early 6th century, Saint Benedict instructed his monks that if they were absent from choir, that they should recite the Divine Office kneeling.

The correct posture at Mass is actually standing. Even the Council of Nicea (325 AD) in its 20th canon proscribed standing:

“Because there are some who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost [the fifty days between Easter and Whit-Sunday]: that all things may be uniformly performed in every parish or diocese, it seems good to the Holy Synod that the prayers [tas euchas] be by all made to God, standing.”

The ‘origin’ of the kneeler actually comes from Irish churches, and this from the Benedictine monastic tradition in Ireland. When the Irish came to the U.S., so did the custom which influenced practically all other Catholic churches in America. You won’t find that custom in most of Europe’s Catholic Churches because it is not their tradition. I don’t think St. Peter’s has kneelers.

That is very interesting! I didn’t know that. Thank you

 

[Lucyabe]

**Regardless of what early tradition may have been, due to Jewish practice, it IS in the Liturgical Laws (Rubrics) now that we Americans are to kneel during the Consecration and Eucharistic prayers. It is a law that many liberals just choose to ignore. Many of those same liberals approve of homosexual marriage and abortion, and women priests. I think most of those people should just join another church - Episcopalian would be a good place for them.

If you don’t believe in or follow the laws of your Church, why stay in it?**

 

[CMP2]

I have to agree. I, too, have found a few people here quick to condemn comments to people who want the traditional Roman Catholic church to remain traditional. I had hoped this group would be more supportive. Some people result to near name-calling and insults to make themselves appear more knowledgeable.

A church in our tri-parish removed kneelers. At first, they said they “forgot to replace them” when they remodeled the church. However, it was done a few years ago, and they decided they liked the space in the pews more.

Coming from a Protestant background, I have found a traditional priest and stick with him. I feel he teaches the TRUE TEACHINGS of the church. I know he is bothered by the removed pews, but some of the people in that parish still kneel.

I, too, have gone for special talks to other Catholic churches, and find many to be very Protestant looking, and Protestant traditions. I will attend for a meeting or special talk, but not for a Mass. I admit to “making this all about me”, but I feel cheated going to a Mass at some of these locations. I know the Mass is sacred, and I feel hiding the tabernacle behind an American flag, or feeling Christ is hidden in the Mass makes it nearly meaningless. I can go to a Protestant church for that.

Heidi

I agree Heidi. I am a convert of 42 yrs. I know the damage caused by the misinterpretations. It is such a shame that a lot of Catholics then and now don’t protect the beauty of the reverence and awe remaining in our Church. Over the last 40 yrs. it has been chipped away until some Churches look like halls. I do kneel where there is a chapel etc that has no kneelers. I don’t care. But if it is not the exception then…
Even in St. Peter’s Basilica they set up chairs if need be. But we don’t have to do this. Our Churches are not this large, nor do they have countless pilgrims walking through.

“For 40 years I endured this generation. They are a people who’s heart have gone astray.
I said, they shall not enter into My Kingdom.”

We are now post 40 years (Vat. II) and have much to repair. Again. Some things never change.

 

[CMP2]

amaloney, it is not right to compare the Catholic churches in Rome or anywhere else in Europe to our tradition here in the United States. And certainly what happens on foreign soil in time of war is not relevant at all.

Before Vatican II we had kneelers in all our churches (Latin Rite) and we knelt at the Consecration. To say that we did not is not true.

After Vatican II, in an attempt to appeal more to Protestants some churches removed the altar rail; kneelers were not put in new churches that were built or modernized; the Tabernacle was moved from its rightful place in the center of the altar to some side spot where it goes unnoticed; women stopped covering their heads when they entered a church, etc., etc., etc.:sad_yes:

I am not against what took place at Vatican II, all I am saying is that some pastors and lay people went hog wild with changes and now we are beginning to see the error of those happenings.

The GIRM says that we must kneel from the Santus to the Lord’s Prayer. (Chapter II, n. 43, para. 3). No pastor can change that.:knight2:

Fortunately, I now know that the few churches in my Archdiocese where there are no kneelers are “under the radar” as the Priest in the Archdiocesean Office told me. And he said at renovation, kneelers must be installed.

Unfortunately, if the Pastor is adament in his own beliefs, no renovation will take place and another generation of Catholics will grow up not showing reverence to the true presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.:knight1:

LOVE IT!!! Keep up the good work you dragon fighter you.

 

[bmadamsberry]

**Regardless of what early tradition may have been, due to Jewish practice, it IS in the Liturgical Laws (Rubrics) now that we Americans are to kneel during the Consecration and Eucharistic prayers. It is a law that many liberals just choose to ignore. Many of those same liberals approve of homosexual marriage and abortion, and women priests. I think most of those people should just join another church - Episcopalian would be a good place for them.

If you don’t believe in or follow the laws of your Church, why stay in it?**

Whoa, no!!! I would never wish these kinds of people to go anywhere else. At least they belong to the Church, even if it is only in name! I would much rather this person stay in the Catholic Church, where they will hear the Truth, than to go anywhere else. They are still our brothers and sisters, even if misguided. We should love them and we should pray for them more than for those that already know the Truth.

I’m starting to think that we are missing something in this discussion, because to be honest we shouldn’t kneel before Christ present in the Eucharist… we should fall flat on our faces before him, never lifting our eyes because we are unworthy to even look at him! However, besides this being troublesome because of a normal church setup, in some cultures it is more honorific and reverent to stand as opposed to kneeling. But, like I said, we are totally unworthy to be in His presence. Once we fully realize that we are in his presence, our bodies won’t help but react in a reverant way… whatever posture that is.

When telling the OP to write a letter, and soon, to the Bishop, I was mistaken. I should have first told this person to get on his or her knees and pray for that priest and for that diocese, and then (if the Holy Spirit pushed her) write a letter to the Bishop. I’m sorry, I gave you wrong advice at first.

 

[mullenpm]

bmadamsberry, please be assured that I did pray for guidance before I wrote the letter to the Pastor of the church in my OP. There does come a time in some situations where it is necessary for direct action.

I wrote a respectful letter to the Pastor of the above-mentioned church but he has not responded. When I spoke with a priest at an office at my Archdiocese he said I should talk to the pastor in person and tell him that my concern is such that I will write to the Archbishop.

I did call several times and left messages but I have had no reply so I will now write a letter to the Archbishop. I will send a copy of my letter to the Pastor and then add some comments that I pray the Holy Spirit will help me with.

There are a number of things wrong at that Parish and if we cannot get kneelers installed immediately, perhaps some of the other matters can be set straight.

A Comment: One of the reasons given for not installing kneelers until renovation in churches currently without kneelers is the huge expense of redesigning the placement of the pews to make room for kneelers. But this church has lots of room between pews. The husband of the friend who took me to that church is very tall and yet when he knelt on the floor his feet did not reach the seat of the pew (can you picture that?). Sitting in the pew I could not reach the back of the pew in the row ahead. It is though the original designer had left enough room to install kneelers at some future point in time.

In this “Year of the Priest” I pray for a number of priests; the Rector of my own parish; all the Priests and Seminarians at EWTN; and the Pastor of my OP church is at the top of the list.

I still hope he may return my phone call, but we must wait and see.

 

[CMP2]

bmadamsberry, please be assured that I did pray for guidance before I wrote the letter to the Pastor of the church in my OP. There does come a time in some situations where it is necessary for direct action.

I wrote a respectful letter to the Pastor of the above-mentioned church but he has not responded. When I spoke with a priest at an office at my Archdiocese he said I should talk to the pastor in person and tell him that my concern is such that I will write to the Archbishop.

I did call several times and left messages but I have had no reply so I will now write a letter to the Archbishop. I will send a copy of my letter to the Pastor and then add some comments that I pray the Holy Spirit will help me with.

There are a number of things wrong at that Parish and if we cannot get kneelers installed immediately, perhaps some of the other matters can be set straight.

A Comment: One of the reasons given for not installing kneelers until renovation in churches currently without kneelers is the huge expense of redesigning the placement of the pews to make room for kneelers. But this church has lots of room between pews. The husband of the friend who took me to that church is very tall and yet when he knelt on the floor his feet did not reach the seat of the pew (can you picture that?). Sitting in the pew I could not reach the back of the pew in the row ahead. It is though the original designer had left enough room to install kneelers at some future point in time.

In this “Year of the Priest” I pray for a number of priests; the Rector of my own parish; all the Priests and Seminarians at EWTN; and the Pastor of my OP church is at the top of the list.

I still hope he may return my phone call, but we must wait and see.

Never give up!

 

[Lucyabe]

**Whoa, no!!! I would never wish these kinds of people to go anywhere else. At least they belong to the Church, even if it is only in name! I would much rather this person stay in the Catholic Church, where they will hear the Truth, than to go anywhere else. They are still our brothers and sisters, even if misguided. We should love them and we should pray for them more than for those that already know the Truth.
**

I can still pray for them after they leave our church and spread their heretical thoughts and disobedient postures, and unrespectful attitudes over there, instead of within our sacred walls. If those who do not follow the rules of our Church had left long ago, perhaps we would still have Unity and peace within our Church, instead of so many disagreements and battles…mostly over the written rules/laws, traditions, devotions…

:sad_bye:

 

[peary2]

The older parts of the Novus Ordo that came from the Tridentine Mass are still supposed to be said in Latin.

More Gregorian Chat was supposed to be sung at Mass (with the entire congregation singing).

Certain parts of the Mass should always be sung in Latin: kyrie, agnus dei, etc.

Vatican II never called for “altar girls”

Vatican II never called for contemporary music

Vatican II called for more Gregorian Chant and for everyone to sing it at Mass.

Vatican II only called for the Precious Blood to be received during Communion during special occasions such as someone’s baptism into the Church.

Vatican II never banned the reception of Communion on the tongue while kneeling either.

Vatican II never called for EMHCs to be present at every Mass under any circumstances.

Vatican II never told the priest to face the people.

Vatican II never told anyone to ban kneeling during communion.

Vatican II never said to remove altar rails.

The list can go on and on and on…

 

[CMP2]

The older parts of the Novus Ordo that came from the Tridentine Mass are still supposed to be said in Latin.

More Gregorian Chat was supposed to be sung at Mass (with the entire congregation singing).

Thank you Peary. I have a friend that has much documentation on this abuse. It is unsettling but truth must be told.

There was much that has been used to weaken our Church and her Truth. Vat. II resulted in so much heresy and abuse of Dogma that ones head spins. Not the actual Vat. II documents, but the interpretation that so many made of it. Like personal interpretation of the Bible. Look what happened there. If one does not see another Reformation in the Church happening right now, then the enemy has truly blinded man again…

I am happy to see that the Holy See is going over these documents and correcting language to make it clearer. Can we ever salvage what was there in truth before? I don’t know, but we we can support those Priests and Bishops who are. With letters as well as prayer. Stand behind the holy Priest. He is a sitting duck for the enemy’s attacks. Especially in this Year of the Priest.

 

[mullenpm]

CMP2 and Peary2,

I agree with both of you; do you think the moderators would permit us to continue in this vein on this thread?

I have been thinking about starting a new thread on Vatican II because of two posts I saw on another thread wherein they blamed Protestant VIPs attending the conferences at Vatican II; thus implying that somehow those Protestant VIPs were responsible for the problems we are now having in the Church.

What do you think? Would that be of interest? I am not interested in starting a thread that would bring out the worst feeling and arguments against everything Vatican II tried to do; I just want to learn for myself what may or may not have happened. There are many people on CAF who are very learned in this matter.

I am also trying to learn which of the Vatican II documents to purchase - Amazon.com has two versions. I would like to read the documents.

 

[Frosty]

CMP2 and Peary2,

I have been thinking about starting a new thread on Vatican II because of two posts I saw on another thread wherein they blamed Protestant VIPs attending the conferences at Vatican II; thus implying that somehow those Protestant VIPs were responsible for the problems we are now having in the Church.

What do you think? Would that be of interest? I am not interested in starting a thread that would bring out the worst feeling and arguments against everything Vatican II tried to do; I just want to learn for myself what may or may not have happened. There are many people on CAF who are very learned in this matter.

I am also trying to learn which of the Vatican II documents to purchase - Amazon.com has two versions. I would like to read the documents.

AJV opened a very good thread on this topic a short while ago that was totally ignored. It is called ; **The Protestant observers and the New Order of the Mass **

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5388317#post5388317

To read the documents from Vatican II, just go the the Vatican website. They are all there.

 

[CMP2]

CMP2 and Peary2,

I agree with both of you; do you think the moderators would permit us to continue in this vein on this thread?

I have been thinking about starting a new thread on Vatican II because of two posts I saw on another thread wherein they blamed Protestant VIPs attending the conferences at Vatican II; thus implying that somehow those Protestant VIPs were responsible for the problems we are now having in the Church.

What do you think? Would that be of interest? I am not interested in starting a thread that would bring out the worst feeling and arguments against everything Vatican II tried to do; I just want to learn for myself what may or may not have happened. There are many people on CAF who are very learned in this matter.

I am also trying to learn which of the Vatican II documents to purchase - Amazon.com has two versions. I would like to read the documents.

I don’t think that having Protestants at Vat. II would have impacted anything. Why would they. I don’t know why they were there to begin with. What would be the sense? But if they were then I guess they were there to listen. I don’t know.
Sometimes these types of Threads can cause a lot of empty name calling etc. Best not to go there.
The Post above by Frosty, that gives the links for info. should help bring clarity to your questions.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church outlines much of what the Church teaches as well. This may be a good resource for you to start with. It’s a thick little book but easy to read.

 

[mullenpm]

CM2, I am well aware of the Catholic Catechism - after all, I learned my Catholic religion at the knees of the good holy nuns in Catholic grade school.:whacky:

I am not sure why you think I should not read the documents of VII; I am of an age where I can understand such things; after all, I lived through the Church before and after VII.

I will look at the link Frosty suggested though.

I know the documents are available on the Vatican website but they are lengthy and I don’t wish to sit at my computer trying to digest important material. I would rather purchase the printed documents and read carefully.:coffeeread:

 

[CMP2]

CM2, I am well aware of the Catholic Catechism - after all, I learned my Catholic religion at the knees of the good holy nuns in Catholic grade school.:whacky:

I am not sure why you think I should not read the documents of VII; I am of an age where I can understand such things; after all, I lived through the Church before and after VII.

I will look at the link Frosty suggested though.

I know the documents are available on the Vatican website but they are lengthy and I don’t wish to sit at my computer trying to digest important material. I would rather purchase the printed documents and read carefully.:coffeeread:

Sorry Mullenpm. I didn’t mean to offend you. For some reason I thought it was someone else who wrote about Vat. II and Protestants being there. I thought it was a non Catholic writing. I was tired I guess. Again, I am sure that you are more than capable of understanding the documents. Sometimes I suggest the Catechism as people tend to jump into documents ahead of themselves and it leads to confusion. I didn’t address this only to you but to people in general.

Sorry for offending you. It was never intended. c.

 

[peary2]

Thank you Peary. I have a friend that has much documentation on this abuse. It is unsettling but truth must be told.

There was much that has been used to weaken our Church and her Truth. Vat. II resulted in so much heresy and abuse of Dogma that ones head spins. Not the actual Vat. II documents, but the interpretation that so many made of it. Like personal interpretation of the Bible. Look what happened there. If one does not see another Reformation in the Church happening right now, then the enemy has truly blinded man again…

I am happy to see that the Holy See is going over these documents and correcting language to make it clearer. Can we ever salvage what was there in truth before? I don’t know, but we we can support those Priests and Bishops who are. With letters as well as prayer. Stand behind the holy Priest. He is a sitting duck for the enemy’s attacks. Especially in this Year of the Priest.

As Jesus said: “He who perseveres to the end will be saved.”