No Kneelers

[mullenpm]

On Sunday I attended Mass at a church not my own; in fact, a parish in a different county from my own.

I had heard someone mention that they did not have kneelers but I was not sure what that meant.

The church was attached to a much larger building containing all sorts of things - offices, gyms, etc. On entering the church section I felt like I was entering an auditorium. The first thing I looked for was the Tabernacle; quite frankly, I had to search for it and only saw it because they had put the Sanctuary light in front of the Tabernacle, which appeared to be a smallish wooden box. It was surrounded with flags - American flag; and some other flags I could not identify.

On entering the pew I realized what they meant by no kneeler – there were no kneelers. Obviously, people don’t kneel down to thank God for bringing them to Mass or to say a Rosary before Mass. I asked a parishioner why they didn’t have kneelers and she said “Father won’t permit it” - he said it was not in the budget and when they offered to raise the money for kneelers he was quick to say NO KNEELERS.

I must have missed the argument about kneelers but I have never, ever, been in a Catholic Church where I could not kneel.

During the Consecration a handful of people knelt on the floor in their pew and I saw one woman kneel in the aisle. But because everyone else was standing, and they did not ring the bells, it was impossible to see what was taking place at the altar.

Now, I know that I have doubted all the terrible things I have read on CAF with respect to irreverance in today’s churches; probably because I have been blessed by not ever having seen such abuses, but this one really got to me.

The church is a consolidation of many towns in the area and seems to be family oriented because people were walking around (up and down the aisles) carrying small children in their arms while Father was preaching his homily, even though I heard no children crying or making any fuss.

I was very confused as to whether or not I was even in a Catholic Church.

Of course, there was the requisite guitar and bouncy music; and also singing “Happy Birthday” to a parishioner (before the Mass had ended) with lots of clapping.

Another thing that really disturbed me was that all along the walls of the church “The Way of the Cross” tablets were intersperced with small hand made wall hangings which appeared to honor certain people receiving First Holy Communion and other such events.

The whole church looked like a kindergarten class room.

My first thought was to write a letter to the Pastor giving him the first impression of his church from an outsider. I felt that there were at least two generations of Catholics who will never know what a real Catholic Church looks like (the parents and the young children of the parish).

I decided before I did that to ask for comments from posters on this Forum to see if I was over reacting because I am of a more traditional and conservative bent.

 

[dashso40]

Sounds very odd…I’ve never been in a Catholic church without kneelers and singing happy birthday?..are you sure it was a Catholic church?..if it was, I would report it to the head diocese…

 

[Aramis]

Note that many Eastern Catholic Parishes don’t have kneelers, since kneeling is not a normal part of their liturgical praxis.

 

[JB05]

My university Newman Center is without kneelers as well. I find it distressing, but maybe thats par for the course for Newman Centers?

Recently, the Center recognized Spring graduates before the formal close of the Mass. Each grad. was allowed to say hello, their major, etc and much applause was to be had. People were leaving early, which was improper, but so was recognizing graduates during Mass!

Anyway, in my case I prefer to attend the more traditional diocesan parish for my district. I think the least obtrusive way to deal with the situation is to simply attend a traditional parish.

 

[prodigalson12]

in a different county from my own probably sums it up here perhaps? This church also sounds like it’s a new start up, the concept of budget was mentioned in that equation as well. I guess they were still trying to manage their affairs due to that as well. I guess though, whereever two or more are gathered in my name that really matters regardless though, don’t you think?

 

[CMP2]

Dear mullenpm:

You are not over reacting nor are you wrong to be concerned. There was a movement after Vatican II (misinterpretation of the Council) to remove all that is Catholic from many Roman Catholic Churches. Statues, kneelers, crucifixes, etc. :tsktsk: Putting Jesus in a separate room is another incorrect action. (justified only for a pilgrimage shrine etc due to traffic, as at St. Peter’s Basilica). Another reason you may hear, incorrectly, is that the tabernacle conflicts with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The reason I was told was that it makes “visitors” more comfortable. Which means our separated brothers and sisters. The move to making our holy Church more “protestant” was on.

I have also been to these halls (for lack of a better word) and I am thankful that my Parish is one of the more Traditional. We do not have a Latin Mass (yet), but it is more respectful and Catholic than many. We still have a ways to go but things are moving along.

We are Catholic. We are not another “denomination”. We are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church is the place where the Sacrifice of the Mass is prayed, and the Eucharist (Jesus Christ - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) is made present for Communion and also for Adoration. This is our Church. A reverent and awe inspiring house should be made present for the King of Kings. We are the Body of Christ, not Christ. We are to bow down and worship the Lord. Every knee shall bend and every head shall bow. The people are in the community of believers, God is the focus of the Holy Mass. We do not need puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects. We have Jesus present.

Be vigilant and thank you for bringing this to light. +God bless you

 

[OhMalley]

On Sunday I attended Mass at a church not my own; in fact, a parish in a different county from my own.

I had heard someone mention that they did not have kneelers but I was not sure what that meant.

The church was attached to a much larger building containing all sorts of things - offices, gyms, etc. On entering the church section I felt like I was entering an auditorium. The first thing I looked for was the Tabernacle; quite frankly, I had to search for it and only saw it because they had put the Sanctuary light in front of the Tabernacle, which appeared to be a smallish wooden box. It was surrounded with flags - American flag; and some other flags I could not identify.

On entering the pew I realized what they meant by no kneeler – there were no kneelers. Obviously, people don’t kneel down to thank God for bringing them to Mass or to say a Rosary before Mass. I asked a parishioner why they didn’t have kneelers and she said “Father won’t permit it” - he said it was not in the budget and when they offered to raise the money for kneelers he was quick to say NO KNEELERS.

I must have missed the argument about kneelers but I have never, ever, been in a Catholic Church where I could not kneel.

During the Consecration a handful of people knelt on the floor in their pew and I saw one woman kneel in the aisle. But because everyone else was standing, and they did not ring the bells, it was impossible to see what was taking place at the altar.

Now, I know that I have doubted all the terrible things I have read on CAF with respect to irreverance in today’s churches; probably because I have been blessed by not ever having seen such abuses, but this one really got to me.

The church is a consolidation of many towns in the area and seems to be family oriented because people were walking around (up and down the aisles) carrying small children in their arms while Father was preaching his homily, even though I heard no children crying or making any fuss.

I was very confused as to whether or not I was even in a Catholic Church.

Of course, there was the requisite guitar and bouncy music; and also singing “Happy Birthday” to a parishioner (before the Mass had ended) with lots of clapping.

Another thing that really disturbed me was that all along the walls of the church “The Way of the Cross” tablets were intersperced with small hand made wall hangings which appeared to honor certain people receiving First Holy Communion and other such events.

The whole church looked like a kindergarten class room.

My first thought was to write a letter to the Pastor giving him the first impression of his church from an outsider. I felt that there were at least two generations of Catholics who will never know what a real Catholic Church looks like (the parents and the young children of the parish).

I decided before I did that to ask for comments from posters on this Forum to see if I was over reacting because I am of a more traditional and conservative bent.

Why did a lack of kneelers keep you from kneeling?

Why did standing people keep the sanctus bells from being rung?

What does a “real” Catholic church look like?

 

[OhMalley]

Dear mullenpm:

You are not over reacting nor are you wrong to be concerned. There was a movement after Vatican II (misinterpretation of the Council) to remove all that is Catholic from many Roman Catholic Churches. Statues, kneelers, crucifixes, etc. :tsktsk: Putting Jesus in a separate room is another incorrect action. (justified only for a pilgrimage shrine etc due to traffic, as at St. Peter’s Basilica). Another reason you may hear, incorrectly, is that the tabernacle conflicts with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

**The reason I was told was that it makes “visitors” more comfortable. **Which means our separated brothers and sisters. The move to making our holy Church more “protestant” was on.

I have also been to these halls (for lack of a better word) and I am thankful that my Parish is one of the more Traditional. We do not have a Latin Mass (yet), but it is more respectful and Catholic than many. We still have a ways to go but things are moving along.

We are Catholic. We are not another “denomination”. We are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church is the place where the Sacrifice of the Mass is prayed, and the Eucharist (Jesus Christ - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) is made present for Communion and also for Adoration. This is our Church. A reverent and awe inspiring house should be made present for the King of Kings. We are the Body of Christ, not Christ. We are to bow down and worship the Lord. Every knee shall bend and every head shall bow. The people are in the community of believers, God is the focus of the Holy Mass. We do not need puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects. We have Jesus present.

Be vigilant and thank you for bringing this to light. +God bless you

Who actually told you this? Sounds like urban legend to me. While we might not need " puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects" we don’t always need a plethora of statues, icons and other furnishings either because as you note “We have Jesus present.”

 

[CMP2]

QUOTE: Who actually told you this? Sounds like urban legend to me. While we might not need " puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects" we don’t always need a plethora of statues, icons and other furnishings either because as you note "We have Jesus present

Urban legend? What? Where did this come from? No, as I stated these were “misinterpretations” of Vat. II. Vatican II was not wrong but until the last 10 years or so there were many wrongs perpetrated by these wrong ideas. Our present Pope is helping to right some of them.

We do not “need” statues etc. We have them in our Churches as reminders of the Communion of Saints. To turn to in need. We have the most beautiful art in some Catholic Churches throughout the world. Why? To give to God the most beautiful place to reside. Yes He IS present. He is King. He deserves a beautiful home to reside in. Not a hovel. An empty “worship hall”. We are not quakers, shakers or any other denomination or non- denominational church.

The Church from the beginning of her existence has decorated even the catecombs with symbols of faith. Statues are symbols of faith. As we have pictures of our families on display in our homes, we have pictures, statues and icons, etc. of our “heavenly family” in our Church.

Let us be Catholic. All the way. As a convert I have been there, done that and I will not compromise Catholicism to “fit” into any worldly culture or other beliefs based on the teachings of “man”. We are the One True Faith founded by Christ. Lets celebrate this fact.

 

[Sr_Sally]

The lack of kneelers does not keep people from kneeling if they want. There are certainly arguements for people standing during the consecration–as another poster mentioned the Eastern churches stand, and in many very old churches there aren’t any pews let alone kneelers.

As for the decorations between the stations, I would suggest that you walk around the church and look at them before saying anything to the pastor. They may be indeed be items made by a First Communion class, but it doesn’t mean they are disrespectful. They may also just be up for the spring and be gone soon enough.

This sounds like a mission church with budget issues, I would overlook the architecture. Find out if there ar long term plans to build a separate church and turn this space over to another use. If that is the case, it may not make sense to add stained glass windows or other expensive art that will need to be moved later.

Finally, or maybe firstly!, if this is not your home parish or a place that you need to attend on a regular basis, perhaps in all charity your best course of action would be to simply pray for that parish and not send letters or spend time gossiping with parishoners about their pastor’s actions.

 

[bpbasilphx]

On entering the pew I realized what they meant by no kneeler – there were no kneelers.

---

**What did you think “no kneelers” meant? That they had kneelers?

PS–Good for you, Sister Sally!**

 

[mullenpm]

One of the things I find surprising on CAF is the “quick to be mean” postings.

bphasilphx, you are Orthodox so possibly not kneeling during the most sacred part of the Roman Catholic Mass is not disturbing; but believe me, it is.

And SrSally, what is your religion? You don’t say, why is that? Why is it “gossiping” to discuss something so different with a member of the parish?

First, let me clarify. I checked the website for this parish and it is 100 years old. It started as a mission church in 1882and was established as a separate parish in 1964.

The new “multi-purpose” church was erected in 1974.

Now, let us get back to the crux of the matter - no kneelers.

O’Malley, I understood what no kneelers meant - but I have never heard of it, nor seen it in any Catholic Church I have attended and I have been around a long time. This church is only a one hour drive from where I live and because I was visiting friends in that area, I attended the local church for Mass on Sunday.

Nothing prevented me from kneeling on the floor in the pew except my age; I probably could have gotten down on the floor but I would not have been able to get back up. That satisfy you, O’Malley.

And the decorations around the Stations of the Cross were not meant to be put up and taken down - they were a permanent decoration and the Stations of the Cross were made to be almost invisible.

All that being said.

Why would some posters not find it sad that during the Consecration they could not view the Host and say “My Lord and My God”? The ringing of the bell would have been the only way to know when the Host was elevated since kneeling on the floor it was not possible to see beyond the people standing.

And why was no one disturbed by the fact that the small Tabernacle was almost hidden behind the American flag, among others?

Anyway, I don’t care what you naysayers think. On June 16th, on EWTN’s rebroadcast of Mother Angelica’s program from 1994, she was questioned about Catholic Churches where the kneelers had been removed after V2 in an attempt to make Catholic Churches appear more Protestant-like.

She was called a ‘heretic’ because she objected to all the changes and she was happy with that label.

In 2009, I hoped we were beyond the name calling, but I suppose not.

I am going to write a letter to the Pastor and give him my impression and ask him why his “Roman Catholic Church” is so protestant-like even in these days when our Holy Father is trying to restore the traditions.

:knight1:

 

[bnj003]

Dear poster, u have my heartfelt smpathy. I, too, have had to endure such a “church”. I was pre-warned by my daughter, but totally unprepared for what I experienced. I have never felt so un-catholic in my life, and I am a convert to catholism.
Here it is, a church in the round, hunted for the Santurary Lamp, way over to the side, almost out of sight, no one kneeled when entering the “church” or at anytime during mass, except my husband and I, it was like a social event, a ring of people holding hands presented themselves before the mass and prayer for something, don’t know what since everyone was like partying, talking, so we never heard what they were praying for, thank God the priest tried to give some sense to the mass and it was valid, at the end of the mass everyone rose and someone(I think a deacon) ask all those visiting to stand, and everyone raised both their hands and proceeded to “bless” these people,(note we sat down when this occurred, we get our blessings from God) and than they did the same thing with those who would be travelling, these people don’t get it. Boy do they think they are important??? At that point we left the “church”. Very sad, I saw for the first time how the influence of those who don’t really believe, are taking our churches and changing them to fit what they want the church to be and not according to the teachings of Jesus. A feel good approach. My daughter was new to the community and she had actually been there before and thought she would at least give it a try, they seemed so friendly, so she attended the “social” hour after the mass and not one person spoke to her, they were in their comfort zones(cliques) with each other and make no attempt whatsoever to speak to a stranger, that did it for her. She left and never went back except when we were visting her but never again. I was use to this having been a protestant for 24 years, but she found it hypocritical.
I tossed around the idea of writing the bishop, since it is in Bishop Capult, Denver, Co. diocese and am still considering it.

Lets take back our churches, no kneelers, what a ridiculous idea!!! Get rid of that priest.

 

[Sr_Sally]

And SrSally, what is your religion? You don’t say, why is that? Why is it “gossiping” to discuss something so different with a member of the parish?

I am a Catholic, why do you ask? I didn’t realize I had to identify myself as such in every post.

Gossip is “Idle talk, especially about others. The morality of gossip is determined by the degree to which time is wasted in useless conversation, by the failure in justice or charity committed against others, and by the damage done to people’s reputation by those who gossip.” This is from the dictionary at the RealPresence website.

Your conversation with the other parishioner included a recounting of a third party conversation. That is considered gossip.

I am sorry that this church is not as well-designed as it could be. I do agree that there are some very ugly churches in the world. However, you don’t know that the 100 year old building was necessarily attractive, well-built, or safe.

Again, because this isn’t your usual parish and is indeed an hour’s drive from your house, you best course of action would be to pray for the pastor and members of the parish. The prayer of a righteous man avails much!

 

[CMP2]

QUOTE: “She was called a ‘heretic’ because she objected to all the changes and she was happy with that label.”

:nun1: You go Mother Angelica! You are a habit and veil wearing daughter of the Roman Catholic Church and the fact that you will defend the Truth of our Holy Church is good enough for me. Like St. Catherine of Sienna you will go the extra mile to make a Church of Christ LOOK like a Church of our Lord. Where He resides Mother does not scrimp in the name of good works.

Mullen…keep up the good work. There is never a good reason to compromise no matter what. Good manners. Good grief. Christ was never concerned with good manners. He spoke the truth out of LOVE for man. To save them. He didn’t pat them on the heads and say there there. You can do whatever makes you happy. Shake the dust off your sandles and go forward in the spiritual warfare we are called to!! :knight2:

 

[mullenpm]

SrSally, you have not identified yourself as a Catholic in your profile so lacking that knowledge makes it difficult to determine where you stand when you offer opinions.

Thank you for the dictionary explanation of gossip - but you have misread my OP. I believe I said I discussed the lack of kneelers with a parishioner. Where do you find the third party in that?

And, I did say that it felt and looked like an auditorium, and it did. Searching for the Tabernacle and finding it off to the side and surrounded by flags was also very sad.

The original church is actually quite beautiful and still standing; it is a small, white church which would probably hold a dozen people and is used now for Adoration on Fridays. When I discovered that fact I was surprised because it did not fit the image of the more casual and irreverent main church.

I was in that area because I was house and pet sitting for friends who were out of the Country and I had no transportation to church so neighbors of my friends drove me to the only Catholic Church in that area. This multipurpose church supports all the small communities in that area.

I have composed a letter to the Pastor of the church and explained my sadness at the irreverence of the Mass I attended. No one genuflecting when they entered a pew; no one kneeling to pray before Mass, etc. The affrounts to our dear Lord could go on and on but, I really would like to know his reasoning behind forbidding the addition of kneelers to the pews when parishioners have agreed to foot the cost.

:knight1:

 

[Hesychios]

If there are no kneelers there is always the floor.

 

[elts1956]

On Sunday I attended Mass at a church not my own; in fact, a parish in a different county from my own.

I had heard someone mention that they did not have kneelers but I was not sure what that meant.

The church was attached to a much larger building containing all sorts of things - offices, gyms, etc. On entering the church section I felt like I was entering an auditorium. The first thing I looked for was the Tabernacle; quite frankly, I had to search for it and only saw it because they had put the Sanctuary light in front of the Tabernacle, which appeared to be a smallish wooden box. It was surrounded with flags - American flag; and some other flags I could not identify.

On entering the pew I realized what they meant by no kneeler – there were no kneelers. Obviously, people don’t kneel down to thank God for bringing them to Mass or to say a Rosary before Mass. I asked a parishioner why they didn’t have kneelers and she said “Father won’t permit it” - he said it was not in the budget and when they offered to raise the money for kneelers he was quick to say NO KNEELERS.

I must have missed the argument about kneelers but I have never, ever, been in a Catholic Church where I could not kneel.

During the Consecration a handful of people knelt on the floor in their pew and I saw one woman kneel in the aisle. But because everyone else was standing, and they did not ring the bells, it was impossible to see what was taking place at the altar.

Now, I know that I have doubted all the terrible things I have read on CAF with respect to irreverance in today’s churches; probably because I have been blessed by not ever having seen such abuses, but this one really got to me.

The church is a consolidation of many towns in the area and seems to be family oriented because people were walking around (up and down the aisles) carrying small children in their arms while Father was preaching his homily, even though I heard no children crying or making any fuss.

I was very confused as to whether or not I was even in a Catholic Church.

Of course, there was the requisite guitar and bouncy music; and also singing “Happy Birthday” to a parishioner (before the Mass had ended) with lots of clapping.

Another thing that really disturbed me was that all along the walls of the church “The Way of the Cross” tablets were intersperced with small hand made wall hangings which appeared to honor certain people receiving First Holy Communion and other such events.

The whole church looked like a kindergarten class room.

My first thought was to write a letter to the Pastor giving him the first impression of his church from an outsider. I felt that there were at least two generations of Catholics who will never know what a real Catholic Church looks like (the parents and the young children of the parish).

I decided before I did that to ask for comments from posters on this Forum to see if I was over reacting because I am of a more traditional and conservative bent.

I have been in only one Catholic Church that did not have kneelers. When I first went into the Church I was very surprised. I have since found out to have no kneelers is not orthodox. The Paster apparently is one of those new found, new, “I will make my own interpretation about Catholic procedure guys”. Needless to say, I felt out of place during the Consecration while trying to kneel on the floor. There wasn’t even room between the rows of pews to do that. Very controversial. I am surprised the parishoners don’t check this out. But then we have been told for centuries, “Listen to what we say and then Do as we say”, is it any wonder laity don’t bring these issues up? Sad.

You aren’t overreacting at all. Kneelers must be in the Church.

 

[elts1956]

On Sunday I attended Mass at a church not my own; in fact, a parish in a different county from my own.

I had heard someone mention that they did not have kneelers but I was not sure what that meant.

The church was attached to a much larger building containing all sorts of things - offices, gyms, etc. On entering the church section I felt like I was entering an auditorium. The first thing I looked for was the Tabernacle; quite frankly, I had to search for it and only saw it because they had put the Sanctuary light in front of the Tabernacle, which appeared to be a smallish wooden box. It was surrounded with flags - American flag; and some other flags I could not identify.

On entering the pew I realized what they meant by no kneeler – there were no kneelers. Obviously, people don’t kneel down to thank God for bringing them to Mass or to say a Rosary before Mass. I asked a parishioner why they didn’t have kneelers and she said “Father won’t permit it” - he said it was not in the budget and when they offered to raise the money for kneelers he was quick to say NO KNEELERS.

I must have missed the argument about kneelers but I have never, ever, been in a Catholic Church where I could not kneel.

During the Consecration a handful of people knelt on the floor in their pew and I saw one woman kneel in the aisle. But because everyone else was standing, and they did not ring the bells, it was impossible to see what was taking place at the altar.

Now, I know that I have doubted all the terrible things I have read on CAF with respect to irreverance in today’s churches; probably because I have been blessed by not ever having seen such abuses, but this one really got to me.

The church is a consolidation of many towns in the area and seems to be family oriented because people were walking around (up and down the aisles) carrying small children in their arms while Father was preaching his homily, even though I heard no children crying or making any fuss.

I was very confused as to whether or not I was even in a Catholic Church.

Of course, there was the requisite guitar and bouncy music; and also singing “Happy Birthday” to a parishioner (before the Mass had ended) with lots of clapping.

Another thing that really disturbed me was that all along the walls of the church “The Way of the Cross” tablets were intersperced with small hand made wall hangings which appeared to honor certain people receiving First Holy Communion and other such events.

The whole church looked like a kindergarten class room.

My first thought was to write a letter to the Pastor giving him the first impression of his church from an outsider. I felt that there were at least two generations of Catholics who will never know what a real Catholic Church looks like (the parents and the young children of the parish).

I decided before I did that to ask for comments from posters on this Forum to see if I was over reacting because I am of a more traditional and conservative bent.

Note that many Eastern Catholic Parishes don’t have kneelers, since kneeling is not a normal part of their liturgical praxis.

BUT it is of the Roman Catholic Church Parishes.

 

[elts1956]

in a different county from my own probably sums it up here perhaps? This church also sounds like it’s a new start up, the concept of budget was mentioned in that equation as well. I guess they were still trying to manage their affairs due to that as well. I guess though, whereever two or more are gathered in my name that really matters regardless though, don’t you think?

Yeah, FREEDOM of CHOICE and all that.:banghead::banghead: