No Kneelers

[SourGrape]

I, unfortunately, have been to a few parishes without kneelers. The ones that boggle my mind the most are older parishes that decided to rip out perfectly good kneelers. Yet, I am equally upset with those new parishes who purposely designed the Church without kneelers. How on earth do these parishes get approval for being built without kneelers is beyond me! We, the faithful, are OBLIGED to kneel during the Consecration, and by not providing kneelers, some people, I can only guess, become confused and don’t think they need to kneel. I was a traveling visitor at each of these parishes without kneelers, so I never really delved into it with the pastor.

**"General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). no. 21, requiring that people
“should kneel at the Consecration unless prevented by lack of space, large numbers, or
other reasonable cause.”

This is the norm—and has been since at least 1201 A.D.—in the Roman Rite. The
bishops of the United States of America asked for and received approval from Rome for
the congregation to remain kneeling throughout the Canon of the Mass (from the end of
the through the Great Amen) and from the until the
Postcommunion prayer. This remains the norm in the U.S. In fact, in June of 1995 at
their annual summer meeting, the U.S. bishops rejected a proposal that kneeling at this
time should be optional rather than mandatory." **

From: ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STANKNEL.TXT

To the OP: you had every right to be uspet and if you live in the diocese of this parish, feel free to contact your bishop about the matter. God bless! Have zeal for God’s House!

 

[bnj003]

If you have joined the CATHOLIC club(church) than go by the rules of the club. Get the kneelers back in the church so you are in compliance with the church’s rules.
Or go join another club where you can get away with bending the rules, and do whatever you want.

Just think mullenpm if you protest enough you could make a difference. Perhaps within a short time you could return to the church and WHAM, new kneelers! What a moment that would be!!!
Kneelers are the tradition, kneelers are the rule, kneelers are for putting your knees on and displaying your obeisance before an altar where God is present. Very humbling experience and isn’t that the point. Some people have difficulty not worshipping themselves. Perhaps this priest has gotten it wrong and thinks they would be kneeling because of him and he can’t take the obsequious behavior all the while it is not about him, thank God.
Keep fighting!!!

 

[JulianN]

Kneelers are not a requirement in a church – for example, St. Peter’s in Rome, Chartres and Notre Dame in Paris.

 

[elts1956]

Kneelers are not a requirement in a church – for example, St. Peter’s in Rome, Chartres and Notre Dame in Paris.

They don’t have kneelers because in the early church only the affluent had seats. The peons had to stand and kneel on the floor at the back. Be interesting to know when kneelers became a tradition in the churches.

 

[bnj003]

Kneelers are not a requirement in a church – for example, St. Peter’s in Rome, Chartres and Notre Dame in Paris.

Be interesting to know what your response is to Sour Grapes post…

 

[JulianN]

Be interesting to know what your response is to Sour Grapes post…

I was actually responding to the posters who said that they had never seen a church without kneelers and implied that a church without kneelers was somehow “not a real Catholic church.”

 

[elts1956]

Be interesting to know what your response is to Sour Grapes post…

I wonder if this is just a US Catholic Church thing. Although I have been to Mass in Spain and Mexico. The Churches had kneelers.

 

[SourGrape]

What makes me most upset about a parish without kneelers is the fact that the pastor does not instruct the faithful to kneel during Consecration. Yes, yes, we can kneel on the floor but, as I’ve witnessed, when a parish takes out kneelers or purposely decides to leave them out, the faithful attending Mass there do not kneel when they are obliged to. So what is the benefit of not having kneelers?! It seems to me, to be a hindrance for proper worship during the Liturgy.

 

[prodigalson12]

With the endless progression of the new mass eliminating tradition from it, I’m surprised they even bother having kneelers in any church at all, you know on the track they are going, eventually kneeling itself will be a thing of the past. They only kneel once at the parish up the street, the building they are at is also ultra modern, rather sterile in comparison to the original one, wow I miss that old church, I miss the mass we used to have at it as well. I guess some may call it progress, I very much do not.

 

[bnj003]

What makes me most upset about a parish without kneelers is the fact that the pastor does not instruct the faithful to kneel during Consecration. Yes, yes, we can kneel on the floor but, as I’ve witnessed, when a parish takes out kneelers or purposely decides to leave them out, the faithful attending Mass there do not kneel when they are obliged to. So what is the benefit of not having kneelers?! It seems to me, to be a hindrance for proper worship during the Liturgy.

Lets just say that kneelers helps the worshipers go down, otherwise they sit or stand, either way they are on the cusp of disobedience in regards to showing respect and reverence to the presence of the Holy Spirtit and the Eucharist.
Let me tell you they take the oldest but goodest out of the mix when they challenge us to knee on the floor and actually get back up…with our respect still in tack.

And of course you are so right the priest is obligated to give some guidance here and not just go along, but sorrowfully they do, just go along. So others lead and it is done wrong.

I sometimes wonder if those so called protestants we are trying so hard to please, care or understand the mass at all.

Why don’t the protestants put kneelers in their churches so the Catholics visiting would feel more at home? By visiting I mean at a wedding or a funeral service.

The reason a person would conclude it is a Catholic thing is because only Catholic churches at one time had kneelers, protestant churches never did or don’t now. So one could conclude no kneelers, not a real catholic church.

 

[OhMalley]

QUOTE: Who actually told you this? Sounds like urban legend to me. While we might not need " puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects" we don’t always need a plethora of statues, icons and other furnishings either because as you note "We have Jesus present

I stand by that.

Urban legend? What? Where did this come from? No, as I stated these were “misinterpretations” of Vat. II. Vatican II was not wrong but until the last 10 years or so there were many wrongs perpetrated by these wrong ideas. Our present Pope is helping to right some of them.

Says you. To me it’s nothing more than urban legend.

We do not “need” statues etc. We have them in our Churches as reminders of the Communion of Saints. To turn to in need. We have the most beautiful art in some Catholic Churches throughout the world. Why? To give to God the most beautiful place to reside. Yes He IS present. He is King. He deserves a beautiful home to reside in. Not a hovel. An empty “worship hall”. We are not quakers, shakers or any other denomination or non- denominational church.

Emotion aside we don’t need statues, etc. except for a crucifix with corpus.

I was in a beautiful catedral a while ago and I asked thr tour guide why there were not stations of the cross in the nave. He replied that the entire main church was designed to focus one’s attention on two places – the ambo and the altar. There were historic stations in a chapel but not in the main church for that reason and I rather appreciated that.

The Church from the beginning of her existence has decorated even the catecombs with symbols of faith. Statues are symbols of faith. As we have pictures of our families on display in our homes, we have pictures, statues and icons, etc. of our “heavenly family” in our Church.

Because the fact a church is not choke-full of statuary and icons does not mean it’s any less of a church.

Let us be Catholic. All the way. As a convert I have been there, done that and I will not compromise Catholicism to “fit” into any worldly culture or other beliefs based on the teachings of “man”. We are the One True Faith founded by Christ. Lets celebrate this fact.

What?

 

[OhMalley]

…On June 16th, on EWTN’s rebroadcast of Mother Angelica’s program from 1994, she was questioned about Catholic Churches where the kneelers had been removed after V2 in an attempt to make Catholic Churches appear more Protestant-like…

Urban legend indeed.

I am amazed that some take it for granted that Catholic parishes were changed to be “more Protestant”, more ecumenical, etc. etc.

 

[OhMalley]

They don’t have kneelers because in the early church only the affluent had seats. The peons had to stand and kneel on the floor at the back. Be interesting to know when kneelers became a tradition in the churches.

Hint: It was in England, not Rome…

 

[DorianGregorian]

My university Newman Center is without kneelers as well. I find it distressing, but maybe thats par for the course for Newman Centers?

So is ours, I just kneel anyway

 

[Shin]

I stand by that.

Because the fact a church is not choke-full of statuary and icons does not mean it’s any less of a church.

What?

‘When we enter ornate and clean Basilicas, adorned with crosses, sacred images, altars and burning lamps, we most easily conceive devotion. But on the other hand, when we enter the temples of the heretics, where there is nothing except a chair for preaching and a table for making a meal, we feel ourselves to be entering a profane hall and not the House of God.’

St. Robert Bellarmine, Archbishop, Doctor of the Church

 

[adrift]

Finally, or maybe firstly!, if this is not your home parish or a place that you need to attend on a regular basis, perhaps in all charity your best course of action would be to simply pray for that parish and not send letters or spend time gossiping with parishoners about their pastor’s actions.

I asked a parishioner why they didn’t have kneelers and she said “Father won’t permit it” - he said it was not in the budget and when they offered to raise the money for kneelers he was quick to say NO KNEELERS.

Idle talk, especially about others. The morality of gossip is determined by the degree to which time is wasted in useless conversation, by the failure in justice or charity committed against others, and by the damage done to people’s reputation by those who gossip.

1. Her question was not about others. It was Why are there no kneelers?
2. The conversation was not useless. It was gathering information and not assuming why.
3. If there was damage to someones reputation, it was not done by her question.
4. It was uncharitable for you to accuse her of gossip.

I ran into the same situation. I wrote the priest and asked him. He never answered. After three months, I wrote the bishop. He answered so quick I didn’t think he had time to get the letter. He thanked me explaining that the size of the diocese did not allow him to be everywhere and he was glad that I informed him of the situation. I didn’t attend that church for about six months. When I did, kneelers were in place. I was surprised. Before when I attended there were three to four who kneeled on the floor. With the kneelers, it was three or four who still stood.

So if the pastor does not answer you. Please write the bishop.

 

[mullenpm]

I thank all the posters who responded but wonder why it was necessary for so many to say “Eastern Catholics” do not kneel. This thread was not about Eastern Catholics and what they may or may not do; that is their culture and their business.

In ROMAN CATHOLIC churches we kneel for the Consecration.

Shin, I thank you for your post.

To answer O’Malley who wants to know what I believe to be a “real Catholic church” I will say this.

I want to enter the church and see the Tabernacle first thing - front and center. I want quiet and I want to be able to kneel down and thank the Dear Lord that I found this church where he is truly present - I would like to see an image of the Blessed Mother and her spouse, Saint Joseph; I wouldn’t mind an angel or two either.

I want to be able to kneel and say my rosary before Mass or just to visit with our Lord for a period of time. If I want to say the Stations of the Cross I would like to be able to walk around the church and say the prayers at each station; not to be interruped by a small wall hanging in between each station depicting the First Holy Communion of some person in the distant past.

I want Holy Water fonts when I enter; I want a Crucifix in a prominent place; I want Confessionals with a Priest to hear my Confession; etc. etc. etc. And I do love the incense that takes our prayers to Heaven.

Even though I do like the Pauline Mass I consider myself a traditional and conservative Roman Catholic and remember well the church before V2.

Today when I went to Mass at my own church (an historic Basilica)I knelt and thanked God that I could see the Tabernacle, our Blessed Mother, Saint Joseph, St. Michael and several other angels and that I could kneel to say those prayers of thanks and I could kneel during the Consecration.

Oh, forgot one thing – I do call myself a Roman Catholic and proud of it.

Enough said, I believe.

 

[mullenpm]

SourGrapes, I forgot to say in my last posting - thank you for the idea that the Priest should counsel the congregation to kneel for the Consecration. I had not thought of that.

I believe though in this parish the custom of not kneeling is so ingrained in the young parents and the young children (and perhaps by now even the older folks) that they probably wouldn’t kneel if told to, but I am going to add that idea to my letter to the Pastor of the parish in question.

Thanks.

 

[phoage]

A number of posters have suggested kneeling on the floor. mullenpm mentioned age as an impediment. I have an old knee injury. I can tolerate kneeling on a kneeler for about 1/2 hr, more than that and I have trouble standing up on that leg. With a kneeler, this is not a major issue, mortification of the flesh and so forth but on a hardwood or stone floor it would not be long before I do myself an injury. Yes, under some circumstances, I could sit or stand, but after all these years, that feels wrong, so I personnaly appreciate the kneelers.

 

[Aramis]

QUOTE: Who actually told you this? Sounds like urban legend to me. While we might not need " puppets, folk songs, lights and special effects" we don’t always need a plethora of statues, icons and other furnishings either because as you note "We have Jesus present

Urban legend? What? Where did this come from? No, as I stated these were “misinterpretations” of Vat. II. Vatican II was not wrong but until the last 10 years or so there were many wrongs perpetrated by these wrong ideas. Our present Pope is helping to right some of them.

We do not “need” statues etc. We have them in our Churches as reminders of the Communion of Saints. To turn to in need. We have the most beautiful art in some Catholic Churches throughout the world. Why? To give to God the most beautiful place to reside. Yes He IS present. He is King. He deserves a beautiful home to reside in. Not a hovel. An empty “worship hall”. We are not quakers, shakers or any other denomination or non- denominational church.

The Church from the beginning of her existence has decorated even the catecombs with symbols of faith. Statues are symbols of faith. As we have pictures of our families on display in our homes, we have pictures, statues and icons, etc. of our “heavenly family” in our Church.

Let us be Catholic. All the way. As a convert I have been there, done that and I will not compromise Catholicism to “fit” into any worldly culture or other beliefs based on the teachings of “man”. We are the One True Faith founded by Christ. Lets celebrate this fact.

Are you implying the Eastern Catholic churches, in union in some cases since the beginning, are somehow less Catholic due to the lack of statues and the fact that we stand instead of kneel?