No "list of propecies" Christ "had" to fulfill!

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Della

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Every time I see someone argue against Christianity or the divinity of Christ and related topics using the idea that the Catholic Church rises and falls on Christ having to have fulfilled this or that OT prophecy I attempt to point out that that is not the case. My posts are often ignored/get lost because others are arguing finer points about some off topic subject. So, once and for all:

THE OT DOES NOT “LIST” PROPHECIES THE MESSIAH HAD TO FULFILL!!!

From an article in This Rock: The Witness of Isaiah 7:14:
In fact, the New Testament makes plain that the prophecies of the Messiah were not so much revealed by the Old Testament as they were hidden there. This is why Paul writes that the New Covenant was “veiled” until the gospel took away the veil (2 Cor 3:14). It is also why he declares the gospel was " not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets" (Eph 3:5). Paul insists the deepest meaning of the Old Testament was seen only after the advent of Christ.
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This is why nobody before the advent of Christ says, “Why, it’s plain from Scripture that the Messiah will be born of a virgin, rejected by the chief priests, handed over to Gentiles, crucified with thieves, rise, and ascend and that he will abrogate the circumcision demand for Gentiles as he breaks down the barrier between man and woman, slave and free, Jew and Gentile.” Even the disciples, close as they were to Jesus, make it clear they did not anticipate the Crucifixion, much less the Resurrection—even when Jesus rubbed their noses in it (Mark 9:9-10). As John says, they did not understand from Scripture that the Messiah had to rise from the dead, even though they stood in the mouth of the empty tomb gawking at his grave clothes (John 20:1–10). Yet these same apostles speak of the Resurrection as a “fulfillment” of the prophecies. What then do they mean if they do not mean the prophecies were “predictions” on which everybody based an understanding of the Messiah?
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They mean that Christ fulfilled, brought to fruition, and was that toward which all the Old Testament was straining and pointing. They mean he was the one toward whom the Law and prophets were being pointed by the Spirit though when the sacred writers themselves did not know quite what they were pointing toward (1 Pet. 1:10–11). This is why the early Church never had difficulty with an issue that vexes modern minds: why the New Testament often takes Old Testament texts out of their immediate context and sees them as applicable to Christ. The early Church does not see the Old Testament as talking about something different from Christ but rather sees it in relationship to him. What appear to us to be separate themes and events in the Old Testament appear to the New Testament writers as so many spokes on a wheel all connected to the hub who is Christ.
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The writers of the NT were recognizing verses/passages in the OT that spoke to their message about our Our Lord not trying to prove he was the Messiah in the modern sense of the word. They saw the OT as a WITNESS to Christ not as a proof-text to upon which to base their faith in Christ.

I don’t know if there will be any responses in this thread, but I just had to get this out there for all to see and consider.
 
What about the fact that the Messiah must come from the Branch of David (or a shoot from the stump of Jesse)?

I think the term “Jesus had to fulfill these prophecies” may mean that for the learned Jew to come to the understanding that Christ truly was the long-awaited Messiah, they needed to be bolstered with these multiple fulfillments. They sort of “greased the wheels” to the Jew’s conversion, if you will, for we know that the Holy Spirit is what guides someone to conversion, but the Holy Spirit uses mundane means to do it!

Am I making a bit of sense?!?
 
NotWorthy said:
What about the fact that the Messiah must come from the Branch of David (or a shoot from the stump of Jesse)?

I think the term “Jesus had to fulfill these prophecies” may mean that for the learned Jew to come to the understanding that Christ truly was the long-awaited Messiah, they needed to be bolstered with these multiple fulfillments. They sort of “greased the wheels” to the Jew’s conversion, if you will, for we know that the Holy Spirit is what guides someone to conversion, but the Holy Spirit uses mundane means to do it!

Am I making a bit of sense?!?
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I think the point isn’t that there were no prophecies exclusive to the Messiah but rather that not all were as clearly understood/looked for as the one concerning the Davidic line. Rather, various verses/passages were recognized as dealing with the life and mission of the Messiah after the fact–there was no “check list” the Apostles were ticking off, so to speak.

Although, they did have certain expectations, even if they were premature or just speculative. That’s why they’d ask Jesus if he was going to do this or that at the time, even up until he ascended into heaven.

And yes, you are making perfect sense. 🙂
 
Agreed! Certainly there is no list of prophesies or set of conditions that Christ had to fulfil…indications only, and Jesus fulfilled a number of those.
For instance, when one reads through Isaiah a number of texts immediately light up as prophesies. The most powerful of these is Isaiah 53.
 
There is and was a list of prophecies that Christ has to fulfill.And He has to fulfill each and every one
 
I think that what you have quoted from This Rock magazine sounds quite reasonable. Certainly there were intimations of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament–many of them–but the messianic prophecies were primarily recognized in the fulfillment, rather like a person looking back at his past and saying, now I realize the meaning of that event.

Recall the post-resurrection event of Jesus meeting the disciples on the road to Emmaus. He explained to them in great detail how he fulfilled all of the Old Testament. Although they were presumably quite familiar with the OT, they did not make those connections until he pointed them out. (And the story does not list them for us either!) And it was only in the breaking of the bread that they finally recognized him–an indication that this was how he was to be recognized in the future.
 
Well, isn’t there a case in the Bible where some people came up to Jesus complaining, “How can you be the Messiah? It’s said that the Messiah will be unknown, but we know you - you’re the son of Joseph and Mary!” To which Jesus replied, “So you know me. So what? It doesn’t matter in light of my authority and the things which I have done to usher in the Kingdom of God, does it?” Now natch, that’s a paraphrase, but that was the jist of it, wasn’t it?:confused:
 
NotWorthy said:
Where is (or was) this list?
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The list is written in the Word,to list them all would take a while,but He had to fulfill them all or He would not be the Messaih

Luke 24:25 "Then He said unto them. “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:”

Luke 24:27 “And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.”
 
NotWorthy said:
Give us two or three…
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What were some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled? Let’s notice a few:
  • He would be a descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1-5; Matthew 1:1,6).
  • He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1).
  • One would precede Him who would announce His coming (Isaiah 40:3,5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3).
  • His own people would reject Him (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11).
  • A friend would betray Him (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-30).
  • The price for His betrayal would be 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15).
  • The 30 pieces of silver would buy a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3-10).
  • Wicked people would pierce His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33; 24:38-40).
  • He would suffer execution but without the breaking of any of His bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-36).
  • Others would cast lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24).
  • He would be buried with the wealthy (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60).
  • God would resurrect Him from the grave (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:30-32).
 
n2thelight said:
What were some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled? Let’s notice a few:
  • He would be a descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1-5; Matthew 1:1,6).
  • He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1).
  • One would precede Him who would announce His coming (Isaiah 40:3,5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3).
  • His own people would reject Him (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11).
  • A friend would betray Him (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-30).
  • The price for His betrayal would be 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15).
  • The 30 pieces of silver would buy a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3-10).
  • Wicked people would pierce His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33; 24:38-40).
  • He would suffer execution but without the breaking of any of His bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-36).
  • Others would cast lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24).
  • He would be buried with the wealthy (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60).
  • God would resurrect Him from the grave (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:30-32).
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Yes, everybody knows that Jesus fulfilled a whole a plethora of prophecies.

But that’s not the point of the thread. Della so carefully pointed out that there was no checklist of prophecies that the Jews ran down when evaluating whether Jesus was the intended Messiah or not, when they met him.
 
Yes, everybody knows that Jesus fulfilled a whole a plethora of prophecies.
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But that’s not the point of the thread. Della so carefully pointed out that there was no checklist of prophecies that the Jews ran down when evaluating whether Jesus was the intended Messiah or not, when they met him.
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So why did you ask?
 
I also brought this up because people will cite that Jesus didn’t fulfill all the prophecies concerning the Messiah. They then go on to cite verses they believe support their contention. They miss the point entirely by clinging to the notion that everybody before Christ had this nice, neat list of things that would clearly indicate who the Messiah would be. But, we see this wasn’t the case. Likewise after the Ascension, the Apostles weren’t combing the Scriptures looking for proof-texts. They were merely recognizing the fulfillments as they preached Christ and his Gospel.

While Christ was with the disciples they often got wrong/wrongly interpreted those OT verses/passages they though they understood, such as when the disciples thought Jesus was going to set up an earthly rule–like the kingdoms of David or Solomon. Jesus was constantly fighting against such ideas and having to turn their attention to his true mission and what the actual fulfillment of it would be.
 
You can certainly rest assured that the Sadducees and Samaritans didn’t have the same “things to expect” as the Pharisees, for they only held to the five books of the Torah. Isaiah, Daniel, and Jeremiah didn’t really hold too much sway with them.
 
NotWorthy said:
You can certainly rest assured that the Sadducees and Samaritans didn’t have the same “things to expect” as the Pharisees, for they only held to the five books of the Torah. Isaiah, Daniel, and Jeremiah didn’t really hold too much sway with them.
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Yes. There was no established canon of the OT amongst the Jews at the time.

And since St. Paul was a Pharisee, his conversion converted him not only to Christ but also away from the idea that only the Torah was inspired. He even quoted from pagans, as well as the earliest Christian hymns. He too saw the fulfillments from the OT as he looked back into Israel’s history but wasn’t searching it for “proofs” but rather for lessons and confirmations of the message he received from Christ.
 
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