J
JesusOnly
Guest
You’re absolutely right. It’s God’s Truth.
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J
JesusOnly
Guest
Whether by Word OR epistle. Since we only have the Bible… the obvious choice is the epistle. But if you want to believe in man’s traditions… that’s your choice.
J
JesusOnly
Guest
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Notice how Jesus does not mention tradition.
J
JesusOnly
Guest
By what authority do you think you can tell me that I can’t interpret scripture? NO one here can prove that the Roman Catholic Church has any authority whatsoever.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hate to burst your bubble, JO, but isn’t ‘word’ in the context of this epistle word of mouth.???
The Bible, at the time of Paul’s epistle did not exist. What was available consisted of parts (not all) of the Jewish scriptures (which we now call the Old Testament) and–at most the beginnings of the earliest of the gospels.
There was no KJV (with index no less) floating around.
So, what ‘word’ was there? The “word of God”, the “gospel” was word of mouth at the time of Paul, and Paul was expounding on that word of mouth and whatever else was available.
Remember Jesus told his disciples to “preach the word of God”. Few people of that time or even until approximately 200 years ago could (en masse) read or write.
Context, context, context.
The Bible, at the time of Paul’s epistle did not exist. What was available consisted of parts (not all) of the Jewish scriptures (which we now call the Old Testament) and–at most the beginnings of the earliest of the gospels.
There was no KJV (with index no less) floating around.
So, what ‘word’ was there? The “word of God”, the “gospel” was word of mouth at the time of Paul, and Paul was expounding on that word of mouth and whatever else was available.
Remember Jesus told his disciples to “preach the word of God”. Few people of that time or even until approximately 200 years ago could (en masse) read or write.
Context, context, context.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
I think this might work as a partial list of Catholic Traditions which could be examined further.
Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament
Benediction
The 40-Hour Devotion
Religious Processions
Palm Sunday
Good Friday
Corpus Christi
Meatless Fridays
Abstaining
Fasting
The Corporeal Works of Mercy
To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
Sacramentals
Ashes on Ash Wednesday
Blessed Palms
Blessing of Throats
Exorcism
The Baptism of the Bell
Additional things which may be considered traditions of Catholic origin might also include…
Praying the Rosary
The Novena
Making the Sign of the Cross
The Genuflection
The Crucifix
Holy Water
This might be just scratching the surface and there may be more that I can’t find at this time.
Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament
Benediction
The 40-Hour Devotion
Religious Processions
Palm Sunday
Good Friday
Corpus Christi
Meatless Fridays
Abstaining
Fasting
The Corporeal Works of Mercy
To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
Sacramentals
Ashes on Ash Wednesday
Blessed Palms
Blessing of Throats
Exorcism
The Baptism of the Bell
Additional things which may be considered traditions of Catholic origin might also include…
Praying the Rosary
The Novena
Making the Sign of the Cross
The Genuflection
The Crucifix
Holy Water
This might be just scratching the surface and there may be more that I can’t find at this time.
T
tequilamac
Guest
No more so than anyone can prove the authority of Jesus Christ. His authority is our authority. Unproveable.By what right do you presume authority over us in bible matters? By what right can you come here and tell us we cannot interpret scripture?
R
runandsew
Guest
Why would you think that we do not have the transmission by word anymore.
You say we only have the bible now, where is the Bible does it teach that the transmission of the oral tradition would ever end?
U
UBERROGO
Guest
Thanks. I think you did the best job answering my question.
The books for dummies are great btw. I have bought many of them and will probably buy this one eventuly as well.
G
geezerbob
Guest
Notice how you have failed to refute any of the arguments made but only pull some out of context quote from the Bible and then misinterpret it to support your position? If there was no written record of Jesus’ teachings for the first generation or so after His death, what did the apostles preach? Word of mouth, or Tradition, that’s what. If you can show us that it was otherwise, please do so.
No one ever said you couldn’t interpret the Bible to suit yourself. What was asked was who gave you the authority to interpret it for the rest of us. Why don’t you answer the question? It was written in a very clear and understandable way. After you have misinterpreted that simple question, why should anyone trust you to interpret the Bible?
R
runandsew
Guest
I browsed through the book by Patrick Madrid entitled “Why Is That in Tradition?”
Here is some of the information I found in his book.
When the Council of Trent dealt with the question of Sacred Tradition, as it relates to Scripture, it did not furnish a list of extra biblical Traditions, mainly because there was a concern among the bishops that to do so would give the incorrect appearance that the list was “complete.”
Sacred Tradition comes in two forms, the written (Bible), and the Oral form.
If you want to find them all you will find them in the Bible and the Catechism.
As for Patrick Madrid’s books, you will find many of the Traditions in his books, “Why Is That in Tradition?”, and his companion book, “Where Is That in the Bible?”
As for the Traditions that Patrick covers in his Traditions book, I will give you the main topics:
I. Authority
1. The Primacy of Peter and His Successors
2. The Bishop of Rome has Unique Authority
3. The Bishop of Rome Is the Successor of Peter
4. The Authority of Apostolic Tradition
II. ** Doctrines**
1. The Trinity
2. Mary as the Mother of God
3. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
4. Honoring Mary and the Saints
5. Praying to Mary and the Saints
6. Purgatory and Prayers for the Deceased
III. The Sacraments
1. The Sacrament of Baptism and its Effects
2. Infant Baptism
3. The Three Modes of Baptism: Immersion, Infusion, and Sprinkling
4. Confession to a Priest
5. The Eucharistic Liturgy
6. The Mass as a Sacrifice
7. Transubstantiation and the Real Presence
The rest of his book, he covers the small “t” traditions.
I hope this helps everyone.
Here is some of the information I found in his book.
When the Council of Trent dealt with the question of Sacred Tradition, as it relates to Scripture, it did not furnish a list of extra biblical Traditions, mainly because there was a concern among the bishops that to do so would give the incorrect appearance that the list was “complete.”
Sacred Tradition comes in two forms, the written (Bible), and the Oral form.
If you want to find them all you will find them in the Bible and the Catechism.
As for Patrick Madrid’s books, you will find many of the Traditions in his books, “Why Is That in Tradition?”, and his companion book, “Where Is That in the Bible?”
As for the Traditions that Patrick covers in his Traditions book, I will give you the main topics:
I. Authority
1. The Primacy of Peter and His Successors
2. The Bishop of Rome has Unique Authority
3. The Bishop of Rome Is the Successor of Peter
4. The Authority of Apostolic Tradition
II. ** Doctrines**
1. The Trinity
2. Mary as the Mother of God
3. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
4. Honoring Mary and the Saints
5. Praying to Mary and the Saints
6. Purgatory and Prayers for the Deceased
III. The Sacraments
1. The Sacrament of Baptism and its Effects
2. Infant Baptism
3. The Three Modes of Baptism: Immersion, Infusion, and Sprinkling
4. Confession to a Priest
5. The Eucharistic Liturgy
6. The Mass as a Sacrifice
7. Transubstantiation and the Real Presence
The rest of his book, he covers the small “t” traditions.
I hope this helps everyone.
P
Philthy
Guest
Hmmm. I can feel your love here. :yup:
Although I wouldn’t accuse anyone of having been overly charitable in responding to this and that it seems as though the topic has faded from discussion, I do think that that we should investigate carefully this statement of yours with a little precision. Afterall, if what you say is true then I want to avoid it.
My first question is this: How do we know that an “upside down cross is satanic”? I dont recall reading this in Scripture. Is this a tradition of yours? It sounds like you are trying to convince people not to make the sign of the Cross based upon an invention of your own - namely that it is “satanic”. Please tell us how, exactly, you came to this knowledge. There is no record, as far as I know, for the dimensions of the Cross that Christ bore. It could have been perfectly symmetrical for all we know.
I ask because I believe that it may not be those honoring the Trinity, the Crucifixion, and the human/divine nature of Christ simultaneously with the prayer of the sign of the Cross who are being misled, but someone who thinks that calling all of those things to mind is somehow offensive to God because of an artificially constructed standard (upside down = Satan). I mean when you come right down to it what you are proposing sounds exactly like something Satan would do. He would twist something that actually honors God - prayer- into something to be avoided. This creates a significant problem:
if you cannot provide something from Scripture - apart from tradition - which justifies your labeling the prayer of the sign of the Cross as evil then I have to come to the conclusion that not only are you being misled, but that you are not in control of your intellectual faculties. This, of course, would require that I - and anyone, really - ignore what you have to say because what you say is at best simply wrong and at the worst it is evil.
So, please make it short and sweet and tell me the basis for your claim that:
A) The sign of the Cross makes an “upside down Cross” and
B) That an upside down Cross in remembrance of the Trinity, the divine and human nature of Christ, and the Crucifixion is, in fact, dishonoring to God.
T
tequilamac
Guest
Good heavens
If the Cross of St. Peter is satanic, someone better tell Origen. He was the first to state that Peter was crucified upside down as an act of humility, something Satan hates you know. Origen’s homily on this took place approx 195 AD in Alexandria.
If the Cross of St. Peter is satanic, someone better tell Origen. He was the first to state that Peter was crucified upside down as an act of humility, something Satan hates you know. Origen’s homily on this took place approx 195 AD in Alexandria.
T
tassitus
Guest
Yes, John 17:17 rings true because the apostles were charged with speaking the word of the Lord both orally (see 1 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:25) and in writing (2 Thess 2:15; 1 Tim 3:14-15).
Throughout your posts you seem to focus soley on the written word - which, of course, Catholics consider, at best, a bit disrespectful to the passages noted above.
Brings to mind this quote: “When, however, they are confuted from Scriptures, they turn around and accuse these same Scriptures as if they were not correct. . . . But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, which is preserved by means of the successions of presbyters in the churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles.” Irenaeus (c. 180 AD)
Holy 2007 to us all.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
You’re welcome.
As you already know, the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur included are official declarations that this book is free of doctrinal or moral error.
I’ve found the book to be excellent, listing things in brief outlines formats, easy for quick references and perfect for introductions into deeper Catholic teachings.
I think anyone looking to understand Catholicism better would greatly benefit from having a copy of it.
E
estesbob
Guest
The very scripture you hold so dear was compiled by the Catholic Church. They are the ones who decided what was inspired and what was not. You simply can not seperate scripture from the Catholic Church.
I ask you again-by what authority do you presume interpert Scripture for the reat of us? Why should I acceptt you own personal(often out of context, poorly explained) interperation of scripture over the interperation of the Church founded by Jesus, the Church that decided what Scripture we use and the church that has faithfully maintained and interperted the Word for the rest of us for over 2,000 years? What possible reason can you give me for accepting, on confession for instance, your personal interpertation over the interpertation that was held by ALL Chrisitans for the first 1,500 years after the death of Christ.?
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
I know it’s been said before but I’m gonna be redundant and ask again. When was the approximate date in history that Scripture was compiled into what we know today as the Bible?
M
mercygate
Guest
393 & 398 A.D. The Scriptures were known before then (of course) but there were many contenders for authenticity. Hence the list was established and ratified at the councils of Hippo and Carthage.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Thanks! I’ll log the dates so I won’t have to ask this question again.
P
Philthy
Guest
No response JesusOnly? I’m shocked…
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