"No matter what you do or don't do, you can never lose heaven, if you believe in Christ as your Savior...."

[swariffin]

These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.

He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’

Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?

I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible. I am very concerned however, that Charles Stanley and other preachers like him are leading people down mistaken paths.

Dear Whatevergirl,

Perhaps we should not interpret the word too literally. Perhaps, he also meant (though he might not said/missed it) what John mentioned in his gospel. According to John, Jesus also said that “whoever loves Me, will do whatever I say”. So, if we really believe in Jesus and trust that He is the savior, we should do whatever Jesus says. And for that, I believe will guarantee our ticket to Heaven.

 

[fbl9]

Syele what is the point of good works in that they show to others that one is "saved"if they don’t make any difference any how?that is kinda like rubbing the unsaved face in the dirt.

 

[Syele]

Syele what is the point of good works in that they show to others that one is "saved"if they don’t make any difference any how?that is kinda like rubbing the unsaved face in the dirt.

I don’t believe it, I just had plenty of people try and teach it to me. But to answer your question, If they are saved according to all that then I suppose the point would only be to make the God that saved them happy.

But They believe that they will do good works naturally because God will live in them and God would not sin. their savedness will make them desire to do those good things so they will.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Stanley has reason (excuse?) for avoiding consequence for divorce. Here’s a much better sermon from a much better preacher.

The Resurrection Homily of St. John Chrysostom
Let all pious men and lovers of God rejoice in the splendour of this feast. Let the wise servants blissfully enter into the joy of their Lord. Let those who have born the burden of Lent now receive their pay. And those who have toiled since the first hour, let them now receive their due reward. Let anyone who came after the third hour be grateful to join the feast. And those who may have come after the sixth hour, let them not be afraid of being too late, for the Lord is gracious and He receives the last even as the first.
He gives rest to him who comes on the eleventh hour as well as to him who has toiled from the first. Yes, He has pity on the last and He serves the first. He rewards the one and is generous to the other. He repays the deed and praises the effort.
Come you all, enter into the joy of your Lord. You the first and you the last, receive alike your reward. You rich and you poor, dance together. You sober and you weaklings, celebrate the day. You who have kept the fast and you who have not, rejoice today. The table is richly laden, enjoy the royal banquet. The calf is a fatted one, let no one go away hungry.
All of you, enjoy the banquet of faith; all of you receive the riches of His goodness. Let no one grieve over his poverty, for the universal has been revealed. Let no one weep over his sins, for pardon has shone from the grave. Let no one fear death for the death of our Saviour has set us free. He has destroyed death by enduring it. He has despoiled Hades by going down into its kingdom. He has angered it by allowing it to taste of His flesh.
When Isaiah foresaw this, he cried, “O Hades, you have been angered by encountering Him in the nether world.”
Hades is angered because it is frustrated. It is angered because it has been mocked. It is angered because it was destroyed. It is angered because it has been reduced to naught. It is angered because it is now captive. It seized a Body and, lo! It discovered God!
O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory? Christ is risen and you are abolished! Christ is risen and the demons are cast down. Christ is risen and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen and life is freed. Christ is risen and the tomb is emptied of the dead. Christ, being risen from the dead, has become the Leader and Reviver of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and power unto ages of ages. Amen. St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople.

 

[dbacks5439]

These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.

He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’

Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?

I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible. I am very concerned however, that Charles Stanley and other preachers like him are leading people down mistaken paths.

The first part of that phrase is correct. However, his assessment is erred. This is an example of a flawed understanding of pre-destination that falls in line with Calvinism. We don’t know what sins we will commit or when we’ll commit them. What Calvin and this guy obviously think is that we can only take a defeatist stance. By that, I mean they believe there’s no point in perservering in the good. The Catholic view is that even though we don’t know our future sins, it’s best to avoid sin. During the stations of the cross this past Saturday, one of the prayers mentioned that Pilate was not the one who condemned Jesus to the cross, but our sins. So by sinning, we condemn Jesus. Protestants see the Passion of Christ as a one time thing when it isn’t. It is a continuing outpouring of grace and love that we participate in by the Eucharist.

So yes, Christ died for all sins; past, present, and future. But instead of attempting to avoid sin, some believe that it is ok to sin since Christ already died for it. We take a different view. We believe that Christ is dying for our sins every time we commit them. Our belief on pre-destination is not a defeatist stance, but rather we must look at time as an eternal now, blending past, present, and future into one. This is the mystical mystery of the Holy Mass, for we are present at Calvary, reflecting on the past, participating in the present, and shaping the future all for the glory of God in union with the saints (which includes future saints) and angels.

 

[tomch]

I used to be a “Once Saved, Always Saved” Baptist. In fact, I went to seminary to study for the ministry. As I read my Bible, I became more and more convinced that “Once Saved, Always Saved” and “Faith Alone” aren’t Scriptural at all.

Anyway, I came up with 29 pages of verses that led me out of the Baptist Church, and into the Catholic Church. Here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1069&d=1182120183. Please forgive the Protestant translations (NIV, NASB). I was Protestant when I did this list…

I’ve been Catholic for about a year, and the Bible makes so much more sense now!

 

[Syele]

I used to be a “Once Saved, Always Saved” Baptist. In fact, I went to seminary to study for the ministry. As I read my Bible, I became more and more convinced that “Once Saved, Always Saved” and “Faith Alone” aren’t Scriptural at all.

Anyway, I came up with 29 pages of verses that led me out of the Baptist Church, and into the Catholic Church. Here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1069&d=1182120183. Please forgive the Protestant translations (NIV, NASB). I was Protestant when I did this list…

I’ve been Catholic for about a year, and the Bible makes so much more sense now!

Maybe adds these to those:

The story of Jonah is one that helped me see that that line of thinking was off. There was a plan God revealed to Jonah that God was going to kill the Ninivetes UNLESS they repented. It was dependent on the people responding.

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.

And this one really got my attention:

So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people,(Exodus 32:14, NASB).

If His plan was perfect and decided BEFORE the earth was invented, then there could never be a reason to change His mind.

There are major implications to that one bit of text… that while God’s nature doesn’t change, God can change His mind. God can and does respond at times according to what people do on this earth, shifting how the plan plays out(but not the ultimate ending). The way of thinking that it was all so carefully constructed beforehand so precisely that nothing I do matters can’t be right if God responds to us in such a way as can be described as changing His mind. It was later I began to see other passages that also showed God changing His mind. Genesis 18:16-33, Mark 7:24-37

 

[deb1]

Not all protestants believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). Many Do. They call it Perseverance of the Saints… It is the idea that since God chose who will be saved and who will not through no choice of ours, that we cannot make God be wrong by being bad enough because God cannot be wrong. The do believe people who think they are saved may be wrong about it… thus why you will hear some say “Well that unrepentant murderer/rapist was never saved to begin with!” I believe they aren’t using it as a license for people to sin, but instead a litmus test to show who is and who isn’t saved.

.

This was the form of OSAS that I was taught and the result of it is that most followers do try and lead decent lives. After all if you don’t, you aren’t a Christian and who wants to believe that their very sincere initial faith in Jesus didn’t take. On the flip side, this belief does tend to make Christians somewhat judgemental of other Christians. Because if you love someone you want to make certain that they are a ‘true’ Christian.

One of the churches I attended said that you could tell a ‘real’ Christian by the movies and games they play. Apparently, your salvation was not real if you liked viewing horror movies.

I should add that the congregation was very zealous and serious about practicing Christianity, which is a plus. But they were also constantly looking for signs that others weren’t really Christians as they claimed.

 

[deb1]

You have to some degree misunderstood what ‘eternal security’ or ‘perseverance of the saints’ implies. Among other things, a person who willfully and continually sins after having made a profession of faith in Christ is likely to have made a false profession. They may have thought themselves sincere but their lifestyle suggests that they were never truly regenerate of God.

The truly-saved person may fall into occasional sin–even occasional egregious sin. They may have constant ‘besetting’ sins which they never fully overcome in this lifetime. If however they are truly regenerate of God, then all of their sins, past, present, and future, are covered over by the atoning blood of Christ. One will, however, expect that in such a case one would see a general trend in such a person’s life towards growth in Christian discipleship. It might be a slow and halting growth, but growth would occur.

Remember: in Protestant Reformational theology, grace is primarily something that God does for a sinner, not something He gives. In Protestant theology, only God is holy. Humans do not ‘become’ holy by becoming regenerate: they merely have their sins ‘covered over’. However, if they are truly regenerate they will begin to change their lives–the evidence of a changed life is evidence (not absolute proof but evidence) of having been made regenerate by the power of God.

Not all Protestants have the same view of OSAS. You and I were taught the form that you are defending. But I have sat in churches that honestly claimed that God could no longer ‘see your sins’ when you are saved.

 

[deb1]

I am a Lutheran and believe that we are saved by grace through faith. I also believe that we can in no way merit salvation through our own works. However, I believe that if we are truly saved by grace through faith, good works and an attempt to live a godly life should follow. If they don’t, one must question if faith is truly there. I am not questioning anyone’s faith, I’ll defer to God to do that. But to believe that faith is a ticket to act anyway you wish is cheap grace, and cheap grace is clearly as dangerous as believing you can merit your way to heaven.

Jon

I have noticed that Lutherans, Methodist, Episcopalians etc seem to have similar views of faith as Catholics.

We believe that there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation. It is God’s grace alone that saves us. But you have to have faith for that grace to apply to you. YOur faith can’t be mere belief but must be ‘active’. If you have real faith, then you will have works. Its not enough to merely believe, you must have faith.

 

[kalt]

One thing I have noticed is that if someone commits a sin such as adultery, some believers in OSAS will claim that the person who commited the sin was never really saved. When I ask for the list of sins that indicates that you are not saved, they usually are quite silent. I have yet to get a list.

I’ve had a similar discussion with OSAS believers. I asked how, if someone can commit a sin that shows they were never really saved, they can be so sure of their salvation. They said that they just know, that someone who would commit murder is obviously not a Christian,. Huh? Christians don’t commit mortal sins? Isn’t it just this kind of thing (sin!) that brought Jesus to the cross in the first place?

For those who believe in OSAS, where in the Bible (or Tradition) does it say that once you are a Christian, you lose your free will?
Where does it say that a Christian will never commit a serious sin? Where does it say that commiting a serious sin indicates that a person isn’t a Christian after all?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Free will is what we gain when we receive the New Birth.

CDL

 

[kalt]

You have to some degree misunderstood what ‘eternal security’ or ‘perseverance of the saints’ implies. Among other things, a person who willfully and continually sins after having made a profession of faith in Christ is likely to have made a false profession. They may have thought themselves sincere but their lifestyle suggests that they were never truly regenerate of God.

The truly-saved person may fall into occasional sin–even occasional egregious sin. They may have constant ‘besetting’ sins which they never fully overcome in this lifetime. If however they are truly regenerate of God, then all of their sins, past, present, and future, are covered over by the atoning blood of Christ. One will, however, expect that in such a case one would see a general trend in such a person’s life towards growth in Christian discipleship. It might be a slow and halting growth, but growth would occur.

This is exactly what someone else told me. But, IMO, it doesn’t make sense. Until the very end of your life, you have no idea, then, if you are truly saved, since you can begin to sin and continue to sin at any time. There is no assurance that you are saved.

IMO, what you’re seeing isn’t a case of not having been saved (truly being a Christian), but a person using his free will to turn away from God. Each of us is able to do that at any time. And we’re all able to turn back to God at any time, too.

Remember: in Protestant Reformational theology, grace is primarily something that God does for a sinner, not something He gives. In Protestant theology, only God is holy. Humans do not ‘become’ holy by becoming regenerate: they merely have their sins ‘covered over’. However, if they are truly regenerate they will begin to change their lives–the evidence of a changed life is evidence (not absolute proof but evidence) of having been made regenerate by the power of God.

 

[kalt]

Oh wow, that’s sad. I suppose we can be anything in our minds.

There are several porn actors that say that they are Christians even while working in porn because the were “saved” when they were 10 years old. Just read the Myspaces. Very funny.
OSAS. The monsters it creates.

Christians don’t work in porn? Or, I guess you’re saying that a porn actor can’t truly be a Christian. Why?

If a Christian can kill. If a killer can be a Christian, as some most certainly are, why can’t porn actors be Christians?

When Catholics commit serious sins, they go to Confession. They don’t go to Confession to become Catholic (Christian) again, as if they stopped being Catholic when they commited the sin. They go to Confession to be forgiven by god for that sin. To be reconciled to God and the Church.

Why do you think that Christians can’t commit sexual sins? Or maybe it’s that you’re saying people who commit sexual sins can’t be Christians.

 

[SD_Catholic]

I use to listen to the only Christian radio we could get, but after hearing Dr. Stanley one too many times I quit. Sometimes I wanted to jump throught the radio and tell him he was crazy. I did hear him say this once "believe and be in", and then something like, ’ this might sound like it’s too easy, but Jesus did the hard part we have the easy part '. This part might be true, but not when you use it to support “believe and be in”, that’s just scary.

A OSAS believer told me that only someone who turned completely away from God after announcing their accepting him as personal savior was the one who never really believed. Any other sin, no matter how bad, would always be covered by Jesus’s blood once you accepted. To me this is like seperating Jesus from God, like you and Jesus are playing a trick on God. I’m pretty sure God isn’t so blinded by his own blood that he doesn’t know what terrible sins a soul has committed. I don’t think it’s a safe thing to try and limit the abilities of God, he’s not only a loving God, he’s also a just God.

SD

 

[kalt]

“God made sure that The people he chose would believe in Him and follow the rules except when it suited Him in order to teach His chosen ones certain lessons”

**Now this is weird. We don’t sin because God gave us free will. We sin because God made us, and He made us do it. And all so He could teach us a lesson. **

Is this a new twist on, “The devil made me do it.”

 

[flameburns623]

“God made sure that The people he chose would believe in Him and follow the rules except when it suited Him in order to teach His chosen ones certain lessons”

**Now this is weird. We don’t sin because God gave us free will. We sin because God made us, and He made us do it. And all so He could teach us a lesson. **

Is this a new twist on, “The devil made me do it?”** **

No. This is an effort to expain briefly and in simple contemporary language the same thing that the following says:

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/councilorange.html

lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Hope these help. Remember that there is a Catholic version of Augustinian thought that is not at all far removed from the ideas of Calvinism and of the proponents of Eternal Security.

 

[Lampo]

St. Paul didn’t believe what the title of this thread suggests.

“No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor. 9:27

Similar Thread

 

[whatevergirl]

I use to listen to the only Christian radio we could get, but after hearing Dr. Stanley one too many times I quit. Sometimes I wanted to jump throught the radio and tell him he was crazy. I did hear him say this once "believe and be in", and then something like, ’ this might sound like it’s too easy, but Jesus did the hard part we have the easy part '. This part might be true, but not when you use it to support “believe and be in”, that’s just scary.

A OSAS believer told me that only someone who turned completely away from God after announcing their accepting him as personal savior was the one who never really believed. Any other sin, no matter how bad, would always be covered by Jesus’s blood once you accepted. To me this is like seperating Jesus from God, like you and Jesus are playing a trick on God. I’m pretty sure God isn’t so blinded by his own blood that he doesn’t know what terrible sins a soul has committed. I don’t think it’s a safe thing to try and limit the abilities of God, he’s not only a loving God, he’s also a just God.

SD

what does that mean exactly–believe and be in??

 

[whatevergirl]

St. Paul didn’t believe what the title of this thread suggests.

“No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor. 9:27

Similar Thread

I didn’t suggest the title, I am paraphrasing what I heard on the radio…(just to clarify)