"No matter what you do or don't do, you can never lose heaven, if you believe in Christ as your Savior...."

[lukewarm]

I also saw a serial killer on tv asking the reporter which sin was greater: stealing a candy bar or murder someone, the reporter answered murder someone. the murderer said no, all sins are the same. all because some preacher went to his prison and tought him this. that didnt sit very well with me.

Well of course it didn’t you are simply using your God given common sense, and if something is obviously absurd to you think how much more absurd it is to God? When the serial killer faces God and says “but the murders I commited were no worse than the guy who stole a candy bar” God will say “yeah O.K. pal, here’s your reward… Mr. candy bar stealer I can’t believe it the worst thing you’ve ever done is steal a candy bar welcome to Heaven”. God isn’t a fool if we have sense enough to see the difference quite clearly, think how much more God will be able to fairly judge?

As far as the statement a repentant murderer is better off than a one time unrepentant apple thief I completely disagree.

 

[peary]

These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.

He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’

Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?

I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible. I am very concerned however, that Charles Stanley and other preachers like him are leading people down mistaken paths.

Sadly, Stanley reflects the “consumer Christianity” that pervades our society and the lack of personal responsibility on our obligation to the Faith. He is sadly mistaken and is leading his flock to perdition with his false theology.

 

[reteeks21]

Sadly, Stanley reflects the “consumer Christianity” that pervades our society and the lack of personal responsibility on our obligation to the Faith. He is sadly mistaken and is leading his flock to perdition with his false theology.

This is a statement made out of complete ignorance. Stanley is constantly preaching about our obligation to Christ and living out our faith. And “consumer Christianity” is an incredibly disingenuos comment. He never preaches about picking and choosing what you want instead of what God wants. Quit bashing others when you have no idea what you are saying.

 

[Lampo]

I also saw a serial killer on tv asking the reporter which sin was greater: stealing a candy bar or murder someone, the reporter answered murder someone. the murderer said no, all sins are the same. all because some preacher went to his prison and tought him this. that didnt sit very well with me.

As well it shouldn’t. 1 John 5:16-17 “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

Just thought I’d point out one instance in Scripture referring to venial and mortal sins.

 

[whatevergirl]

This is a statement made out of complete ignorance. Stanley is constantly preaching about our obligation to Christ and living out our faith. And “consumer Christianity” is an incredibly disingenuos comment. He never preaches about picking and choosing what you want instead of what God wants. Quit bashing others when you have no idea what you are saying.

I lean in agreeing with you–I actually think that Charles Stanley is a wonderful man, who seems to be spirit filled–and is doing what he feels is right. I don’t see him as a tv preacher who is seeking money, or profits by preaching the Word of God. Most of his messages are beneficial to all Christians, but where I find his message to be lacking, is in at times, is his subtle attacks on Catholics. He never says the word Catholic,but I know that is who he is speaking of. (as if we have it all wrong)

But, I think there is a chance for everyone to fellowship together–this is what Christ wanted. Dr Stanley does preach about living a Godly life, etc…but then, in another sermon will say some potentially misleading things like…‘you don’t have to do anything to achieve salvation, Jesus has paid your sin debt in full.’ Although that is true–it is, we can’t create our own moral codes apart of God, and expect to still be in stride with Christ’s teachings. Works will not earn us heaven…nothing we can do will ‘earn’ us salvation–but it’s quasi dangerous to not tell believers the full story. Maybe he doesn’t know the full story, or doesn’t believe it. I would find that hard to believe that he doesn’t know it, considering he has his doctorate in theology, I believe? I think though, that his 'once saved, always saved, preaching, can sometimes be viewed as minimizing what we need to do as Christians, in order to show our love for Jesus. Mere words are not enough. Accepting Christ into my heart is not enough. I need to live my faith. He does talk about that at times, but again–it gets muddied when he turns the sermon into…‘no matter what you do or don’t do, you will go to heaven.’

I think that Charles Stanley is a great preacher…I pray he will become Catholic some day, because we could use passionate deaons like him.

 

[reteeks21]

I lean in agreeing with you–I actually think that Charles Stanley is a wonderful man, who seems to be spirit filled–and is doing what he feels is right. I don’t see him as a tv preacher who is seeking money, or profits by preaching the Word of God. Most of his messages are beneficial to all Christians, but where I find his message to be lacking, is in at times, is his subtle attacks on Catholics. He never says the word Catholic,but I know that is who he is speaking of. (as if we have it all wrong)

But, I think there is a chance for everyone to fellowship together–this is what Christ wanted. Dr Stanley does preach about living a Godly life, etc…but then, in another sermon will say some potentially misleading things like…‘you don’t have to do anything to achieve salvation, Jesus has paid your sin debt in full.’ Although that is true–it is, we can’t create our own moral codes apart of God, and expect to still be in stride with Christ’s teachings. Works will not earn us heaven…nothing we can do will ‘earn’ us salvation–but it’s quasi dangerous to not tell believers the full story. Maybe he doesn’t know the full story, or doesn’t believe it. I would find that hard to believe that he doesn’t know it, considering he has his doctorate in theology, I believe? I think though, that his 'once saved, always saved, preaching, can sometimes be viewed as minimizing what we need to do as Christians, in order to show our love for Jesus. Mere words are not enough. Accepting Christ into my heart is not enough. I need to live my faith. He does talk about that at times, but again–it gets muddied when he turns the sermon into…‘no matter what you do or don’t do, you will go to heaven.’

I think that Charles Stanley is a great preacher…I pray he will become Catholic some day, because we could use passionate deaons like him.

But see, I think that you might be a little misinformed. He does not preach, or write in his books, that you can live how ever you want to and it will be fine. No intelligent pastor says such things. As a Prot. I do not even think that. Sometimes, sadly, the main thought about Prot. preachers is that they say exactly what you said, and that is not true. For instance, I know many Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Church of God folks who preach very similar things that the RCC preaches (well, SOME things). I think that we ALL need to be more informed about each other so that we a.) we can be better of as individuals, and b.) so we do not lead others into thinking things about others that aren’t true.

 

[whatevergirl]

But see, I think that you might be a little misinformed. He does not preach, or write in his books, that you can live how ever you want to and it will be fine. No intelligent pastor says such things. As a Prot. I do not even think that. Sometimes, sadly, the main thought about Prot. preachers is that they say exactly what you said, and that is not true. For instance, I know many Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Church of God folks who preach very similar things that the RCC preaches (well, SOME things). I think that we ALL need to be more informed about each other so that we a.) we can be better of as individuals, and b.) so we do not lead others into thinking things about others that aren’t true.

No, if you reread, I didn’t say he preaches that we can do whatever we want…I said that he does at times talk about living Godly lives. But, in the next breath–we are all going to be saved if we just ‘believe’ that Jesus died for our sins. How can the two be congruent? I would imagine it could be implied that if one is living an unrepentant, sinful life, that he/she would be endangering his/her soul? But, he doesn’t really expound on that–so it leaves the listener wondering…On the surface, his presentation is very Christ like…I think that he is a remarkable speaker, and demonstrates a true love of our Lord. (I wouldn’t listen to him otherwise) I don’t believe that as a Catholic, I cannot listen to Protestant preachers…lol, but he doesn’t believe in confession, for example, the way Jesus created it to be. But, overall–his message is typically positive, and I have read a few of his books, as well.

 

[reteeks21]

No, if you reread, I didn’t say he preaches that we can do whatever we want…I said that he does at times talk about living Godly lives. But, in the next breath–we are all going to be saved if we just ‘believe’ that Jesus died for our sins. How can the two be congruent? I would imagine it could be implied that if one is living an unrepentant, sinful life, that he/she would be endangering his/her soul? ***But, he doesn’t really expound on that–so it leaves the listener wondering…***On the surface, his presentation is very Christ like…I think that he is a remarkable speaker, and demonstrates a true love of our Lord. (I wouldn’t listen to him otherwise) I don’t believe that as a Catholic, I cannot listen to Protestant preachers…lol, but he doesn’t believe in confession, for example, the way Jesus created it to be. But, overall–his message is typically positive, and I have read a few of his books, as well.

But that is not really accurate. That is already well known by us. Sometimes the perception is that because it is not mentioned every Sunday that it must not be an issue. Not true. The RCC I go to on occasion (the priest is my buddy) never mentions it because it is implied and already known. The same is true in Prot. churches (or the ones I have been to). And it is okay if people can’t listen to other preachers, ministers, pastors, priests, whatever, “preach”. I can’t stand to hear my mom’s preacher preach! This is okay for me as long as it is not done in an attacking fashion (I am not saying you did ). Sometimes people on both sides do that, and that is very upsetting to me. If you disagree, fine, but too often I encounter it in a rude and arrogant spirit, and I am quite sure Catholics deal with the same thing. I would rather talk and disagree and still be friends than say your peace and still get attacked (again, not talking about you). I see no point in that. I will get of my soapbox now.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As well it shouldn’t. 1 John 5:16-17 “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

Just thought I’d point out one instance in Scripture referring to venial and mortal sins.

what is catholics to do? we not only have to fight the secular world but also false theology that mislead others into pride instead of true repentence.

 

[Lampo]

what is catholics to do? we not only have to fight the secular world but also false theology that mislead others into pride instead of true repentence.

“Preach the Gospel daily and when necessary use words.” - St. Francis of Assisi

 

[inthecloud]

As I recall a large number of OSAS supporters made statements to the effect that while they rejoiced over her conversion and “salvation” they believed that she still had a penalty to pay to the state.

Jerry Falwell comes to mind.

I guess that for Catholics the doctrine of Purgatory solves the problem. You are saved but you are punished at least for a while.

I also saw a serial killer on tv asking the reporter which sin was greater: stealing a candy bar or murder someone, the reporter answered murder someone. the murderer said no, all sins are the same. all because some preacher went to his prison and tought him this. that didnt sit very well with me.

In You Tube a porn actress who used to be a sunday school teacher (really sad story covered by ABC) said that yes she is sining by doing porn and hard drugs but God hates all sin and everybody sin.
And of course she is a “christian” who was saved at young age.

I guess I never get OSAS.

 

[deb1]

But see, I think that you might be a little misinformed. He does not preach, or write in his books, that you can live how ever you want to and it will be fine. No intelligent pastor says such things. As a Prot. I do not even think that. Sometimes, sadly, the main thought about Prot. preachers is that they say exactly what you said, and that is not true. For instance, I know many Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Church of God folks who preach very similar things that the RCC preaches (well, SOME things). I think that we ALL need to be more informed about each other so that we a.) we can be better of as individuals, and b.) so we do not lead others into thinking things about others that aren’t true.

I just wanted to point out that I think that it is incorrect ot say that intelligent preachers don’t preach an extreme form of OSAS. I have heard some men, who are well spoken, bright and articulate espouse the view that not only can you not loose your faith, but your sins don’t count against you(They put it much more intelligently:blush: )

I live in the southeastern US. Maybe the extreme heat and humidity makes us a bit odd when it comes to theology.

 

[guanophore]

hello

In your last paragraph–I agree, but I also know that the thief who hung next to Christ was not in a state of grace–yet Christ assured him of everlasting life in ‘paradise.’

Really? What makes you say that? Did he fail to say “the Sinners Prayer”?

I think that if we truly claim to be followers of Christ–yes, our deeds ‘should’ reflect that, but only God’s mercy will be the deciding factor. I never understood the whole ‘saved’ thing, to be honest. I think that one is either walking with Christ or not. There have been times I have strayed from Christ’s teachings, and times when I have been living on the right path (like now and for most of my parenting life)…so the times I have slipped, I wasn’t really saved? What does saved even mean? Saved from what? Saved from hell? From sin? From our selves?

Very good questions we all need to ponder.

When Christ died on the cross, we were all ‘saved’ from hell, when you think about it.-/quote]

No, it is not that way when I think about it. It is as if Jesus was at the grocery, paid the store for the items. Not all the items get into the bag, though.
whatevergirl;3444028:

I am assuming that it’s in the accepting of this that one can be deemed ‘saved.’ But again-saved from hell or something else?

The work Jesus did on the cross does no good to those who are not joined to it. God does not save people against their will.

 

[whatevergirl]

hi guanophore–yes, you are right–my bad! They were not in a state of grace when they were hung on the cross (the thieves) but when the one turned to Christ…he was saved. He was going to paradise, as Christ had promised. This is why I never speculate on who might be/not be in heaven–as if one is literally on his/her deathbed…he/she repents at that very moment, and led a horrible life preceding, he/she can be saved–it’s an awesome gift!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevergirl
hello

In your last paragraph–I agree, but I also know that the thief who hung next to Christ was not in a state of grace–yet Christ assured him of everlasting life in 'paradise.

i believe that the thief on the cross knew God, he was a jew. he knew about the coming of the Messiah because of the Prophecy. he probably heard sometime the preachings of Jesus when he was not robbing noone. or perhaps he was in jail for sometime. the fact is that it seems that he knew something about Jesus for he declared that Jesus had done nothing wrong. that said, this thief did not have much time left in this earth to know Christ and obey Christ’s commandments, therefore by coming to the defense of Jesus at the time against the other thief convinced Jesus that this man although a thief he showed true repentence before his death. remember he did not have any time left to do the works of Christ.

 

[Huguenot]

These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.

He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’

Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?

I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible. I am very concerned however, that Charles Stanley and other preachers like him are leading people down mistaken paths.

Well I’m a Protestant and I don’t make any distinction between MORTAL sins and other sins : ALL sins are MORTAL since they separate us from God …

 

[whatevergirl]

Well I’m a Protestant and I don’t make any distinction between MORTAL sins and other sins : ALL sins are MORTAL since they separate us from God …

Now, THAT is an interesting take. They do all separate us from God, but eternally speaking, do you feel all sins hold the same weight? (thanks for replying)

 

[Huguenot]

Now, THAT is an interesting take. They do all separate us from God, but eternally speaking, do you feel all sins hold the same weight? (thanks for replying)

If you mean that a non-redeemed sinner will go to Hell , yes, but in the the Gospel Jesus says that some towns, for example, will be more severely judged than other ones : He says this to the inhabitants of towns in which He made miracles, saying that if Sodoma and Gomorra ( sorry I don’t know the exact English spelling ) had seen the same miracles, they would have repented, and therefore the towns that have seen His miracles will be more severely judged ; he also says this about people, saying some will come from the north and the south and judged those who have seen His miracles and still not believed in Him … I don’t know exactly what it means …( and I don’t remember exactly where it is either, and since I don’t post from home I don’t always have a Bible at hand … )
In the book of Revelation it is said that we will be judged according to our deeds, so will there be different degrees of suffering in Hell ? they’ll be eternal for all, but not exactly the same ? it is a question I’m asking myself, I don’t have an answer …

We cannot “deserve” heaven, we are all sinners who DESERVE to go to hell … if some are saved it is only by God’s grace, thanks to the atoning death of Christ …
to be saved without this, a man should have lived a perfect life, which means he shouldn’t have committed one single sin at all : who can say that about himself ? I can’t say it about myself anyway …
so if you have committed ONE sin, you “miss” salvation …
let’s say you’re taking an exam, there are 100 questions, to pass you need 50 right answers … if you have only 10 good answers, you fail, but you fail too if you have 49 … you’re “nearer”, but you still don’t pass it …