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E.E.N.S
Guest
Good post! Very well said IMO.
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mozier
Guest
Indeed, LSK, I think I will have to do about 5000 Our Fathers, Hail Marys, and Glory Be-s after that rant of mine! But that is all right, for I will offer them up to the souls in purgatoryI gotta admit, I wish I had been there…ok, ok…I’ll go stand behind you in line for confession… we can both confess sins against charity and patience…
Still, I cannot take back what I said, for I meant it. If you are a Protestant or other kind of Non-Catholic, then fine. And if you sincerely want to learn about the Roman Catholic Church and the fullness of Christian Truth that is found in it, then even better! But if you are going to attack the Catholic Church, then forget it.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
LSK~
Perhaps we should start a new thread as your post would begin a discussion that could hijack this one.
I did not mean to make it sound like I was running in with guns-a-blazin’. Right now, anything I may say will have a tinge of pain in it. I am very worried about Aaron and cannot be there with the family as I am in another state.
BUT I will say that I still stick with what I said in my original post. Suck it up or get off the field. If you are tired of defending your faith then sit on the sidelines. It’s your choice. Yes, we become frustrated because a world we care about is turning away from a truth we have found. But attacking them is not going to accomplish it. Remember, two wrongs DON’T make a right. Hypocracy is one of the MAIN reasons as to why someone won’t come to church or believe what we say. You meet resistance because the church’s actions don’t match the teachings (whether protestant or catholic) at least on the surface. The goal is to plant the seed. You are not the gardner. You don’t have to tend to the plant… God does that. All we are called to do is to plant the seed and let God take over as the cultivator. When we attack eachother we choke the plant and nothing is accomplished except the destruction of that seed you planted.
Perhaps we should start a new thread as your post would begin a discussion that could hijack this one.
I did not mean to make it sound like I was running in with guns-a-blazin’. Right now, anything I may say will have a tinge of pain in it. I am very worried about Aaron and cannot be there with the family as I am in another state.
BUT I will say that I still stick with what I said in my original post. Suck it up or get off the field. If you are tired of defending your faith then sit on the sidelines. It’s your choice. Yes, we become frustrated because a world we care about is turning away from a truth we have found. But attacking them is not going to accomplish it. Remember, two wrongs DON’T make a right. Hypocracy is one of the MAIN reasons as to why someone won’t come to church or believe what we say. You meet resistance because the church’s actions don’t match the teachings (whether protestant or catholic) at least on the surface. The goal is to plant the seed. You are not the gardner. You don’t have to tend to the plant… God does that. All we are called to do is to plant the seed and let God take over as the cultivator. When we attack eachother we choke the plant and nothing is accomplished except the destruction of that seed you planted.
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adnauseum
Guest
I’m with you mozier.
It is not inherently uncharitable to tell someone publicly they are unequivocally wrong. Nor to tell them forcefully, as long as you respect their dignity as a person, and refrain from indicting them as a person created by God.
Suppose you were walking past a porn shop. Would it be uncharitable to tell the man behind the counter that he was wrong to do what he was doing? I have personally done this, on Bourbon street in New Orleans, in the lair of Satan himself. I said point blank to the man behind the counter: this is wrong, what you believe about freedom of expression is wrong, what you are doing to other people is wrong.
Don’t let modern liberalism warp the definition of charity. Charity is not promoting other people’s self-esteem at any cost, or being afraid to hurt someone’s feelings.
It is not inherently uncharitable to tell someone publicly they are unequivocally wrong. Nor to tell them forcefully, as long as you respect their dignity as a person, and refrain from indicting them as a person created by God.
Suppose you were walking past a porn shop. Would it be uncharitable to tell the man behind the counter that he was wrong to do what he was doing? I have personally done this, on Bourbon street in New Orleans, in the lair of Satan himself. I said point blank to the man behind the counter: this is wrong, what you believe about freedom of expression is wrong, what you are doing to other people is wrong.
Don’t let modern liberalism warp the definition of charity. Charity is not promoting other people’s self-esteem at any cost, or being afraid to hurt someone’s feelings.
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scylla
Guest
It is difficult sometimes but we must stand up for the truth in love. This is a very different world in Christianity than it was even 25 years ago. Many, many Christians these days are parts of groups with very little if no historical perspective. So they do not see what they are attacking.
Relativism also has taken a hold so that there is very little perspective of absolute truth. It is very common to find people say things like “finding your own truth” or “this is true to me” or similar things like this. This is not really all their fault as this is the culture we are in.
Take care and I feel your frustration,
God Bless
Scylla
Relativism also has taken a hold so that there is very little perspective of absolute truth. It is very common to find people say things like “finding your own truth” or “this is true to me” or similar things like this. This is not really all their fault as this is the culture we are in.
Take care and I feel your frustration,
God Bless
Scylla
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Paris_Blues
Guest
I agree with you on that one! It’s very difficult especially when you’re trying to explain but the people who hate Catholicism just “shut you up” so to speak so they can get their point across so boldly and you have nothing to say! Well, you do but again they will say all sorts of garbage!
I am really trying to love our brothers and sisters and I believe that it’s possible but everytime I see or hear about the Church being attacked, I tend to forget about love and just get angry because the attacks and insults are just so hateful!
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mozier
Guest
Sauce for the goose, Singinbeauty. :yup:
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Singinbeauty
Guest
What is that supposed to mean?
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AnglicanRite
Guest
I think what he meant was that just as it is absurd for an Anti-Catholic to make outrageous claims about the Catholic Church, so was it the same for him to do the same to them. Yet it even the odds out, so to speak, and pointed out the absurdity of it all.What is that supposed to mean?
Hence, the original poster was pointing out the correctness of your statement, but admitting that it was deliberately done. Hence, “sauce for the goose.” Or better yet, “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Oh, ok… well then you deserve everything you get in response OP…
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Magicsilence
Guest
Maybe we should all examine our state of humility in light of what has been said above.
Are we all prepared to repeat such words to Christ (who rests in the heart of all people)?
Do realize that it is not these people themselves speaking but Satan who has infiltrated their hearts and minds, false happiness is very comforting, it is no surprise that they vehemently defend it as if it were the True Gospel of Our Lord.
Prayer is what is needed here. For how does ranting bring you closer to our Lord?
Blessed are the humble.
In Christ.
Andre.
Are we all prepared to repeat such words to Christ (who rests in the heart of all people)?
Do realize that it is not these people themselves speaking but Satan who has infiltrated their hearts and minds, false happiness is very comforting, it is no surprise that they vehemently defend it as if it were the True Gospel of Our Lord.
Prayer is what is needed here. For how does ranting bring you closer to our Lord?
Blessed are the humble.
In Christ.
Andre.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Every time a person attacks you because of your faith, smile and be nice, no matter how difficult…then later say a rosary for that person. Show them how “at peace” you are with your faith–do not show them anger and vengance…give them the reasons for your hope and joy.
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Paris_Blues
Guest
I disagree! That’s like saying you’re letting anti-Catholics win! Not that this is a win-lose situation but if you do that, you’re giving them the impression that they were always right and that’s going to cause more anti-Catholic activity going! We don’t need that, we have enough!
They need to know the FULL TRUTH darn it, whether they want to or not!
Sometimes they will understand which is a blessing, sometimes they wont.
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sparkle
Guest
WOW! This is hard and all the OP is going through. I totally understand their frustration. Hang in there!
- You do not need to apologize but you will need to defend—sooner or later.
- Take the time to truly learn your faith and how to explain it rationally and in Love. You can become a great Apologist- as we all can. I do think God is counting on us Catholics to do just this!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
We have done nothing we need to defend ?
The fact of our difference from each other, means that there will be much in their belief and practice that both sets of Christians (not just Catholics) need to defend - simply because there is mutual misunderstanding on both sides. We parody their doctrines and faith, they parody ours - so defence, and mutual understanding, are both needed.“They” say about us pretty much what “we” say about them - if that is to end, if we are to break out of the vicious circle of attack and counter-attack, a change of approach is needed. Otherwise we will be slamming each other until Doomsday.
There are sure to be books which explain all these points. Better still, why not ask a Protestant pastor ? Seriously - why not ?
And you know that they worship it, because…? As we say when asked about our veneration of what is less than Christ, there is more than one kind of worship.
Their attitude to the Bible, is like ours to the BVM. Both attitudes are apt to be called idolatrous by the other side, both are misunderstood, both have led to deviations, neither is in itself wrong, both objects of veneration are inferior to Christ. ##To which they would reply, that we added to the Bible. Both are correct.
[continue…]
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TPJCatholic
Guest
When Catholics act badly it reflects on the faith.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
I am going to take that one step further, TPJ, and say that when CHRISTIANS act badly it reflects on the faith… That is why we need to stop attacking eachother and unite under Christ! At least on the surface where the rest of the world can see…
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
…continued & ended]
Even if we can’t get anywhere intellectually with them (or they with us, for that matter), we can always try to leave a good impression behind. Anyone can can win debates - but only Christians can persuade by their likeness to Christ. ##
Who gave the Church the authority to deviate from the NT pattern of Church order ? They have difficulties in showing their legitimacy - so do we. The NT pattern of Church order doesn’t include a Pope - Peter calls himself an “elder”. “Tradition”, is no answer - for who discerned that the tradition followed by Rome in her Church order was healthy ? The Church ? But churches can fall into error - see Galatians. Besides, Jesus rebukes the appeal to traditions - He corrects them, by appeal to the OT. He never once appeals to Tradition, frequently criticises it, & frequently quotes the OT. The NT writers quote it too - they hardly ever refer to tradition, with or without the big T.
Tradition in general may be OK - that does not begin to show that all individual traditions are sound. So quoting Paul on the subject isn’t good enough. And why, once the canon of the Bible was finalised, didn’t the CC return to Apostolic church order ? It is only an assumption that tradition is not ended by that finalisation: as we do have the Bible now, why bother with tradition ? These questions need an answer. ##Because they trust him for much the same reasons as we trust the Pope ?
The question takes for granted what may not be happening - it certainly doesn’t reflect the practice of all Protestant churches - and it’s gratuitously offensive, if asked in public. So it’s a very good way to put people’s backs up. We will only be be convincing if we start gently, and win people’s good-will, by being courteous, kind, forebearing, and so on; bulldozer tactics and tactlessness aren’t the way ahead. Not if we claim to be Christians. Otherwise we will merely scare people off - and will do nothing to show that we aren’t as bad as they may have been told we are. Books by Protestants criticising Catholics are full of complaints about how unChristian our behaviour is.Even if we can’t get anywhere intellectually with them (or they with us, for that matter), we can always try to leave a good impression behind. Anyone can can win debates - but only Christians can persuade by their likeness to Christ. ##
That’s being individualistic - exactly what we so often say they are. Our individualism can take the form of forgetting that our personal example affects others - that if the only Catholics others come across are unpleasant, bullying, superstitious, dishonest, or whatever, people may well be very unimpressed by our words. Most of the objections to Catholicism are moral objections. If the disconnection between words & deeds is very great, the CC will not be credible; because the disconnection will be an obstacle to faith.
“I feel your pain”. Maybe you need time off from that kind of carry-on ?
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allhers
Guest
I just ran across this prayer today, and thought maybe that us Catholics could begin to pray it (perhaps daily).
St. Peter
O glorious Saint Peter, who, in return for thy strong and generous faith, thy profound and sincere humility, and they burning love, wast rewarded by Jesus Christ with singular privileges, and, in particular, with the leadership of the other Apostles and the primacy of the whole Church, of which thou wast made the foundation stone, do thou obtain for us the grace of a lively faith, that shall not fear to profess itself openly, in its entirety and in all of its manifestations, even to the shedding of blood, if occasion should demand it, and to sacrifice of life itself rather than surrender. Obtain for us likewise, a sincere loyalty to our holy mother, the Church; grant that we may ever remain most closely and sincerely united to the Roman Pontiff, who is the heir of thy faith and of thy authority, the one, true, visible Head of the Catholic Church, that mystic ark outside of which there is no salvation. Grant, moreover, that we may follow, in all humility and meekness, her teaching and her advice, and may be obedient to all her precepts, in order to be able here on earth to enjoy a peace that is sure and undisturbed, and to attain one day in heaven to everlasting happiness. Amen.
V. Pray for us, Saint Peter the Apostle,
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
LET US PRAY.
O God, who hast given unto Thy blessed Apostle Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and the power to bind and loose: grant that we may be delivered, through the help of this intercession, from the slavery of all our sins: Who livest and reignest world without end.
St. Peter
O glorious Saint Peter, who, in return for thy strong and generous faith, thy profound and sincere humility, and they burning love, wast rewarded by Jesus Christ with singular privileges, and, in particular, with the leadership of the other Apostles and the primacy of the whole Church, of which thou wast made the foundation stone, do thou obtain for us the grace of a lively faith, that shall not fear to profess itself openly, in its entirety and in all of its manifestations, even to the shedding of blood, if occasion should demand it, and to sacrifice of life itself rather than surrender. Obtain for us likewise, a sincere loyalty to our holy mother, the Church; grant that we may ever remain most closely and sincerely united to the Roman Pontiff, who is the heir of thy faith and of thy authority, the one, true, visible Head of the Catholic Church, that mystic ark outside of which there is no salvation. Grant, moreover, that we may follow, in all humility and meekness, her teaching and her advice, and may be obedient to all her precepts, in order to be able here on earth to enjoy a peace that is sure and undisturbed, and to attain one day in heaven to everlasting happiness. Amen.
V. Pray for us, Saint Peter the Apostle,
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
LET US PRAY.
O God, who hast given unto Thy blessed Apostle Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and the power to bind and loose: grant that we may be delivered, through the help of this intercession, from the slavery of all our sins: Who livest and reignest world without end.
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Podo2005
Guest
How does challenging them and being uncharitable a part of the solution? Another point, The Lord didn’t say we should take a break or slack off( on the part of defending the faith) It is our duty to always defend the faith! To preach the message of Jesus Christ and the teachings of His Bride the Church! What we hear is to proclaimed from the rooftops!
And to that I say AMEN!
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