No More Defending Or Apologizing!

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There are two types of people who ask challenging questions about Catholicism.
  1. The Genuine Seekers. These are really interested in the Church, her history and teachings. These should be answered patiently and with love.
  2. The Hate Mongers. These are people, (either atheist or ultra protestant), who have a hatred of the Church and seek to abuse her or destroy her. Generally such people have no interest in truth or understanding of what Catholics really teach and why. They will prefer any lie to a truth that supports catholicism, and worse, they will often twist facts and sometimes tell outright lies to make the Church look bad.
It is best to treat everyone as category 1, until we know for certain they are in Category 2. Many in Category 1 may, because of being misled, make an initially hostile-sounding approach, or attack on an issue favoured by the haters.

However once we are certain we are dealing with someone with a spirit of hatred or mockery, it is quite right and quite justified to rebuke them for their practices and for slandering the brethren. Sometimes a stout defence of the truth is required, and will have an affect, so long as we do not fall into hatred ourselves.
 
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Singinbeauty:
The bible without the Holy Spirit guiding interpretation is just that… the bible. But coupled with the Holy Spirit it IS the Word of God. This is what I meant about not being built soley on the bible. Because I do believe that the Holy Spirit guides my pastor in his sermons. 🙂
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I really really want to make sure, before I ask this question, that you understand that I’m NOT trying to come off confrontational. I think you’ve been really good at answering questions graciously, etc. and I want to be the same way to you. 🙂

If the Holy Spirit’s interpretation is absolutely necessary for the Bible to be taken as the Word of God, and it in and of itself, without that guidance, is open to a misinterpretation of God’s Word at any time by anyone, how do you know who is right and who is wrong? It sounds to me like you’re SURE that your minister is guided by the Holy Spirit in his interpretation and those two things coupled together guarantee you the infallable truth, or at least that’s got to be the situation for the Bible to be revealing God’s Word truthfully to you. So, according to what your saying, the Bible DOES need interpretation, and that interpretation needs to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Right?
 
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bookgirl:
I really really want to make sure, before I ask this question, that you understand that I’m NOT trying to come off confrontational. I think you’ve been really good at answering questions graciously, etc. and I want to be the same way to you. 🙂

If the Holy Spirit’s interpretation is absolutely necessary for the Bible to be taken as the Word of God, and it in and of itself, without that guidance, is open to a misinterpretation of God’s Word at any time by anyone, how do you know who is right and who is wrong? It sounds to me like you’re SURE that your minister is guided by the Holy Spirit in his interpretation and those two things coupled together guarantee you the infallable truth, or at least that’s got to be the situation for the Bible to be revealing God’s Word truthfully to you. So, according to what your saying, the Bible DOES need interpretation, and that interpretation needs to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Right?
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I do realize that you are not meaning to be confrontational but by your preface it sounds like you are expecting your posts to seem so. They haven’t so far… No worries! 🙂

Yes, the Holy Spirit DOES need to be present for the correct interpretation to take place. And before you ask, how do I know that the Holy Spirit is talking with my pastor and that is how I know he is right? Because the Holy Spirit speaks to me also and lets me know what is right and what is wrong. I have been to a church where I knew that the Holy Spirit wasn’t working in that pastor because ‘by his fruits’ (recognize that saying? 😉 ) I saw that he did not follow Christ.
 
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Singinbeauty:
I do realize that you are not meaning to be confrontational but by your preface it sounds like you are expecting your posts to seem so. They haven’t so far… No worries! 🙂

Yes, the Holy Spirit DOES need to be present for the correct interpretation to take place. And before you ask, how do I know that the Holy Spirit is talking with my pastor and that is how I know he is right? Because the Holy Spirit speaks to me also and lets me know what is right and what is wrong. I have been to a church where I knew that the Holy Spirit wasn’t working in that pastor because ‘by his fruits’ (recognize that saying? 😉 ) I saw that he did not follow Christ.
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The trouble is that all the 30,000 different protestant denominations similarly “feel” they’re being led by the Holy Spirit in their 30,000 different sets of teachings.

Only one can be right. Which one?
 
Why do you think I am non-denominational? All religion is man made. A relationship with God is God made… 🙂
 
SB,

Thanks for the answer, I really do appreciate your posts!! Is this assurance more of a feeling for you? Like you feel as if you’re being led in the right direction? Or is it more that since you do see that “by his fruits” you trust him before you make your own judgement upon what he’s saying? Do you believe that it’s possible for him to be infallable on some of the things that he’s preaching? You’re coming from a fresh perspective for me as far as my interraction with someone who isn’t Catholic. My personal exposure to other Christians has been through non-denominational, evangelical Christians (two of them are my very best friends). Most of them do believe that the Bible is sufficient enough that anyone can open it, read it with no other (name removed by moderator)ut from any other sources (pastor, church, etc.) and that it’s clear enough to go on it alone. I want to clarify that I’m not insinuating that it’s not inspired, lacking, etc., it’s not in any way. But I don’t usually find other Christians who aren’t Catholic that agree that there has to be an authoritative interpretation.
 
It all comes down to understanding. While I don’t devote my life to theology and the interpretation of the bible I also believe that when it comes to the important stuff (like salvation) the Holy Spirit WILL guide me to what needs to be believed. I can’t go into it blind though (meaning I believe everything the pastor tells me right off the bat) because then it would mean that I didn’t make that decision for myself but someone else made it for me. I do my own research and when I have questions I go to my pastor for clarification. No, I don’t believe that you can just pick up the bible and immediately know everything that the bible is trying to say because there are many levels and layers to the message of the bible… 🙂
 
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mozier:
I tell you, that felt GOOD!

Yeah, I know some of you will be tsk-tsking me and saying how uncharitable I was and what a poor example I was. TOO BAD! If you not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

AMEN!!!
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You know you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. But, certainly alot of Catholics can empathize with you. I certainly can. Personally, I do feel a new era coming on in the Church with the new Pope. I have a gut feeling that it is going to be one of non-apologizing for the sins of our fathers and moving forward. If you’re not with us, you’re against us. We are no longer sending mixed messages. This is it. Hold on. I think the first indication of this was when Pope Benedict XVI remained silent when asked if whether or not Islam was a religion of peace. All too often, I think Catholics have been trained to be too gracious, accepting, and apologetic to our less than Christ-like protestant friends. I do believe those days are over. I suspect the days are coming real soon when we will have to make up our minds to shake the dust from our shoes and move on. Personally, I approach protestants by giving them facts about the Catholic church. I usually will take the offensive and make them think for themselves. I avoid at all cost quoting scripture and using the same ineffective tactics that they use. Kindness and truth really does kill. If you want to see a person literally go crazy, lead them to a logical conclusion step by step that they are wrong.
 
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Singinbeauty:
I believe that if we all took a step back and realized that it is not up to US to save the world life would be a whole lot simpler. We got off track somewhere when we decided that WE were the saviors of the world and that only WE can tell it, and beat into it, the whole TRUTH. That is not our job! Our job is to live like Christ and to spread the news that He is risen! It is not up to us to make the decision for our fellow man. You can’t do that… but some of us have decided that we can and will beat on the other person and drive more of a wedge between them and God than we might have wanted.
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When you say it is not up to US to save the world, who are you referring to? Personally, I believe it IS up to us to save the world. Prepare Ye the way of the Lord! Literally! How we go about it is entirely up for discussion. Jesus showed us the way, but your interpretation of how to do it and my interpretation on how to do it probably varies. You can’t MAKE anybody believe anything that person does not want to believe. If you do, then YOU are assuming the role of Jesus Christ. People have to use the minds God gave them and come to their own conclusions based on reality and truth. The truth as we know it changes over time. It’s called evolution. The only constant is Jesus Christ and quite frankly, I seriously doubt most believers will recognize him/her when he/she comes again. Just as the scribes and pharisees missed him the first time around. Sometimes the truth is right under our noses and we miss it completely.
 
I sometimes tell them to put that Bible down, it’s a Catholic book. What gives them the right to interpret our book the way they see fit or to meet their needs. It takes magisterial teaching, sacred tradition and scripture, none of these can exist without the other and that is why sola scriptura is a LIE!
 
You know the saying ‘Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.’? I say that’s crazy… ‘Whatever’ might not kill you but it’s God that makes you stronger!
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Actually, it’s called freewill! God gave it to man to guide him along life’s path. The statement above seems to reject the gift that God gave man. That is actually a fundamental flaw in Protestantism. Protestantism, based on what I have been told by Protestants, projects the belief that man is inherently evil and cannot be trusted to do the right thing.
 
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Singinbeauty:
Why do you think I am non-denominational? All religion is man made. A relationship with God is God made… 🙂
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Even the one that Jesus created when he told Peter: You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church!?
 
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patshea1128:
When you say it is not up to US to save the world, who are you referring to? Personally, I believe it IS up to us to save the world. Prepare Ye the way of the Lord! Literally! How we go about it is entirely up for discussion. Jesus showed us the way, but your interpretation of how to do it and my interpretation on how to do it probably varies.
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Ok… I had to take a minute and close my dropped jaw… :bigyikes:
Last time I checked it was Jesus’ job to save the world. Not ours. By saying that it is up to US to save it totally takes Jesus out of the equation. WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR NEIGHBOR’S SALVATION except to live the life Jesus commanded us to and to tell the good news of what He has done for us.
You can’t MAKE anybody believe anything that person does not want to believe. If you do, then YOU are assuming the role of Jesus Christ.
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Jesus didn’t MAKE anyone believe anything they didn’t want to either. I did not say that we can MAKE someone believe something they didn’t want to… In fact I said the exact opposite that we do not have the power to do so… So your statement above doesn’t make a lot of sense…
People have to use the minds God gave them and come to their own conclusions based on reality and truth. The truth as we know it changes over time. It’s called evolution.
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You know, this is a subject that the Catholics and I agree on… The TRUTH never changes. EVER. There is no evolution in the process. The TRUTH is the TRUTH.
The only constant is Jesus Christ and quite frankly, I seriously doubt most believers will recognize him/her when he/she comes again. Just as the scribes and pharisees missed him the first time around. Sometimes the truth is right under our noses and we miss it completely.
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This is something I disagree with. Anyone who is a TRUE believer will know Jesus the moment He steps back on this earth. No question about it.
 
#8. Who is their authority?
I think this is a VERY simple answer… God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are our AUTHORITY.
The Holy Spirit? Why does the Holy Spirit tell protestants something different. One Baptist church says one thing and the one down the street says something else. Toss a coin I’ll go to the one around the corner because I think this minister knows what he’s talking about. That’s why there are so many denonminations because you guys can’t agree on what scripture says.

Catholics have one belief system under one structure and one leader to guide us. When we go to Mass we know exactly what we’re getting. Doesn’t matter if it’s in Indonesia, Venice Italy or Fort Worth Texas.
 
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Singinbeauty:
Ok… I had to take a minute and close my dropped jaw… :bigyikes:
Last time I checked it was Jesus’ job to save the world. Not ours. By saying that it is up to US to save it totally takes Jesus out of the equation. WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR NEIGHBOR’S SALVATION except to live the life Jesus commanded us to and to tell the good news of what He has done for us.
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OK, I forgot to add the FACT that Jesus Christ will provide the final key to salvation. And NO, it does not take Jesus Christ out of the equation at all! It includes him EVERY step of the way.
You know, this is a subject that the Catholics and I agree on… The TRUTH never changes. EVER. There is no evolution in the process. The TRUTH is the TRUTH.
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No, actually you are not in agreement with Catholics on this one. Evolution DOES occur. The world WAS NOT made in 6 days and God resting on the 7th. The Truth as we know DOES change. It’s called scientific discovery. God wanted us to discover, man has discovered, and realized that beliefs of the past are no longer valid. The continued existence of Protestantism depends entirely on the hope that it’s members will be intellectually lazy and reject this notion altogether.
This is something I disagree with. Anyone who is a TRUE believer will know Jesus the moment He steps back on this earth. No question about it.
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Possibly yes, and possibly no. Do you wanna bet eternal salvation on it? 🙂
 
Ok, wait a minute… Does every catholic on this board agree with the person above this post? Something’s fishy… :confused:
 
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Singinbeauty:
Ok, wait a minute… Does every catholic on this board agree with the person above this post? Something’s fishy… :confused:
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I seriously doubt that they do. You just don’t get it, do you? Catholics all have minds of their own and the Catholic church teaches them that God wants them to use the mind he gave them to draw their own conclusions with the guidance of the church. The perceptions among it’s members most likely vary enormously. That’s the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. We are not FORCED to all believe the exact same thing. Now do you get it? Use your mind girl. That is the message!
 
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patshea1128:
OK, I forgot to add the FACT that Jesus Christ will provide the final key to salvation. And NO, it does not take Jesus Christ out of the equation at all! It includes him EVERY step of the way.
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Oh, so Jesus provided the keys but it is up to us to do what? Do the work? Sorry, Jesus already did this when He suffered on the cross. To say that we are the ones that save people is just scary wrong. I don’t really want to go down that street…
No, actually you are not in agreement with Catholics on this one. Evolution DOES occur. The world WAS NOT made in 6 days and God resting on the 7th. The Truth as we know DOES change. It’s called scientific discovery. God wanted us to discover, man has discovered, and realized that beliefs of the past are no longer valid. The continued existence of Protestantism depends entirely on the hope that it’s members will be intellectually lazy and reject this notion altogether.
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I am confused… :confused: I was told that the catholic church’s teachings (TRUTH as they call it) have NEVER changed that this was how we know the catholic church is THE church. Do I have it wrong?
Possibly yes, and possibly no. Do you wanna bet eternal salvation on it? 🙂
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You bet! I will recognize my Savior because He is the Savior of my soul and my soul knows Him deeply. My very being will jump the minute He touches the earth.
 
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Singinbeauty:
Ok, wait a minute… Does every catholic on this board agree with the person above this post? Something’s fishy… :confused:
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Seriously, it’s about evolution. Changes over time. Man’s mind must evolve else we die. God’s greatest creation, the human mind! The most intelligent design ever? Evolution! The Catholic church has evolved in it’s teaching since the Reformation, has Protestantism?
 
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patshea1128:
I seriously doubt that they do. You just don’t get it, do you? Catholics all have minds of their own and the Catholic church teaches them that God wants them to use the mind he gave them to draw their own conclusions with the guidance of the church. The perceptions among it’s members most likely vary enormously. That’s the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. We are not FORCED to all believe the exact same thing. Now do you get it? Use your mind girl. That is the message!
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Ok, WHOAH… Wow… I cannot begin to describe the venom seething from the above post… Have I angered you in some way? I am sorry if I have done so… It’s just everything you are saying is going against what EVERY catholic has ever told me…
 
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