No more, I have to say this

[Caesar]

The cluster parish of St. Joseph’s and Immaculate Conception in Stratford.

Well then, greetings from St. Peter’s Cathedral

 

[smellslikeroses]

Well then, greetings from St. Peter’s Cathedral

I want to go there for a mass someday…it looks so beautiful from the outside.
I’ve thought about going to the chrism mass but have never went.

 

[Caesar]

I want to go there for a mass someday…it looks so beautiful from the outside.
I’ve thought about going to the chrism mass but have never went.

It’s very beautiful inside. Unfortunately, water leakage over the years has severly damaged the walls inside. It’s being restored now though. I love the pipe organ- makes the whole building tremble

 

[Lorarose]

We have a sad mixture of posters who keep this in front of us.

There is another group to add to this list…those catholics who bury their heads in the sand - who want to deny the guilt of certain priests and bishops - and who want to treat the victims as enemies.
These same people will claim their desire for renewal, while at the same time declaring victims as liars, opportunists, and greedy cheats.

Renewal is possible when all the facts are carefully studied and the mistakes made are identified.
That way we can remove those who committed the evil…those who enabled the evil…and learn how to prevent those types of people from becoming priests.

It is true that many victims are bitter and angry…that is why they need help. Men who were supposed to be shepherds became wolves and destroyed many lives. Innocent souls were driven from the Church because of this. This is the true tragedy…how to reach out to victims…how to help them overcome their pain and bitterness.

 

[pnewton]

There is another group to add to this list…those catholics who bury their heads in the sand - who want to deny the guilt of certain priests and bishops - and who want to treat the victims as enemies.

I do not think the threads Caesar was refering to had anyone like this on it. Nobody I have ever read here denies that some priest are bishops are guilty of crimes ranging from molesting children and teenagers to cover-up to just poor judgement.

This does not mean that every priest/bishop’s name that is every published in the paper is really guilty. There is a deeper bias in the media than even anti-Catholicism, that is the bias against the dull. They thrive more on sensationalism than truth and can not be trusted for a finding of guilt. That is what courts are for. Those found guilty in a court of law should be given the stiffest penalties allowed by law for their violation of their position of trust.

 

[contemplative]

I thank God for your interest in becoming a priest, Caesar. Perhaps I can add to what you had to say.

But true pederasty was a rather small part of the problem. The Case Western Reserve study shows that the vast majority of the “child abuse” cases actually involved post-pubescent young men, and most of the incidents were consensual. The big end of the iceberg was actually homosexuality. I think the Holy Father understands this, but many do not. I believe reforms are ongoing, but they sure could have, and should have, started sooner. There are still those who advocate the acceptance of homosexuality (as distinguished from those otherwise pure persons with homosexual tendencies) within the Church. Again, a case of accepting societal notions in lieu of the teachings of the Church.

There doesn’t appear to be much reform going on in Minneapolis.
‘Coming Out’ Sunday services announced at Basilica

I too thank God for Caesar’s interest in being a priest. I don’t think there was ever a time in history for men to easily chose priesthood.

 

[DWPC]

There is another group to add to this list…those catholics who bury their heads in the sand - who want to deny the guilt of certain priests and bishops - and who want to treat the victims as enemies.
These same people will claim their desire for renewal, while at the same time declaring victims as liars, opportunists, and greedy cheats.

Renewal is possible when all the facts are carefully studied and the mistakes made are identified.
That way we can remove those who committed the evil…those who enabled the evil…and learn how to prevent those types of people from becoming priests.

It is true that many victims are bitter and angry…that is why they need help. Men who were supposed to be shepherds became wolves and destroyed many lives. Innocent souls were driven from the Church because of this. This is the true tragedy…how to reach out to victims…how to help them overcome their pain and bitterness.

I wholeheartedly agree and am dismayed to see that so many want only to circle the wagons. In disfunctional families, such actions are called enabling. What’s needed is an intervention.

 

[Lorarose]

I do not think the threads Caesar was refering to had anyone like this on it.

I have noticed a particular group on many of these threads where the victims are attacked as enemies of the Church. Many are willing to assume the worst about them - their credibility - and their motivations in court cases.
There is also a tendency to blame the media - to blame anti-catholicism.
Well…this scandal was handed to the media on a silver platter due to incompetency - due to coverups - and due to downright evil acts.

I find this type of attitude disturbing because it makes me wonder how “reform” is possible if we are willing to minimize what was done - if we are willing to blame the scandal on anything other than what truly caused it.
If we can’t look at the evil for what it is…how will we stop it from happening again?

This does not mean that every priest/bishop’s name that is every published in the paper is really guilty

On the other hand…many priests and bishops who played a role are still active in the Church because many court cases were thrown out due to statute of limitations.
So…where some people might say “not every accused priest is guilty”…that is true. But on the other hand one could also say that many of the guilty got off scott free.
My abuser is one of those who went on to commit sacrilege as a priest for many years, who was able to go back to his home country and hide from what he did in the US. No investigation - no repercussions. I am assuming he is now dead and probably died as a priest in good standing.
There are very likely to be many like him out there.

[Nobody I have ever read here denies that some priest are bishops are guilty of crimes ranging from molesting children and teenagers to cover-up to just poor judgement.
/QUOTE]

Many here would rather discuss how the victims of abuse have sinned by suing the Church rather than closely examine the actions of some priests and bishops.
I was recently in a discussion on the moral theology forum where Cardinal Law was actually presented as a man who had been treated poorly and was given a raw deal.
I couldn’t believe it.

They thrive more on sensationalism than truth and can not be trusted for a finding of guilt.

Well sure they thrive on the sensational, and unfortunately that is exactly what was provided to them by some of the members of the clergy.
As with ANY type of story covering a crime…the media will report on the sensational aspects of the crime before any trial, during any trial, and after any trial. They leave it up to the reader to form their own conclusion.
As for the defendants - it isn’t up to readers of newspapers to determine if guilt has been proven, it is up to the courts.
That is why we have a situation where a majority of Americans believe OJ Simpson killed his wife and Ronald Goldman…but still he walks as a free man.

Those found guilty in a court of law should be given the stiffest penalties allowed by law for their violation of their position of trust.

Agreed. But sadly there is still bitterness over those who remain simply because statutes of limitations prevented prosecution.
And you still have situations where it is being reported that men like Mahoney may have assisted in an abuser’s escape to Mexico.

I personally overheard one priest describing a conversation he had with his bishop. The priest was dismayed with the bishops recent actions taken against a handful of very popular priests. One of them was stripped of his priesthood because of a sexual encounter with a teen 20 yrs. ago - with no apparant transgressions after that.
The bishop responded to the troubled priest that with the current attention placed on the Church he had to maintain credibility by taking these actions.

I found the discussion troubling because this priest I was speaking to obviously thought this man should have remained on the altar.
But I also found the bishop’s response troubling…it seemed he might not have made the same decision had it not been for all the media attention.

And so this example makes me think the media spotlight is not all that bad because it is forcing bishops to take proper action when they were unwilling to do so before.

 

[Caesar]

But Lorarose, focusing on the scandal and going back over and over again to this troublesome past is counter-productive. It is useless complaining. What we need to do is to put our focus on renewing the Church and solving these problems. Certainly part of that means to punish these priests and Bishops, but we cannot dwell on the past. We must move forward, not behind.

And the media is whole other issue. They are scavengers, feeding on the misery of the Church and the victims of abuse, for their own profit and agenda. The liberal media is a plague on society.

 

[geezerbob]

Lorarose, I can certainly understand your feelings but, in fairness to the other posters here, I formed a somewhat different opinion of what was said even though we both apparently read the same posts.

I have seen only a very few posts which were critical of victims for bringing suits and I disagree those who made such statements. I have seen a lot of criticism leveled against those (and their lawyers) who obviously jumped on the bandwagon to get some of the Church’s money. With the Church running scared, and with good reason, a lot of money has been paid out in phony settlements, how much we’ll never know. This is in no way critical of legitimate victims but is an attempt to point out that many opportunists have been and are using the situation to bilk the Church out of undeserved money.

Just as you have pointed out that there are a lot of abusers who have gone unpunished for various reasons, there have also been a lot of false charges leveled against the Church and I just wanted to provide a little balance.

 

[Lorarose]

But Lorarose, focusing on the scandal and going back over and over again to this troublesome past is counter-productive

How do you learn from a mistake if you don’t focus on what went wrong?
It isn’t like we managed to completely clean house - it is now over - and everyone has learned their lesson.
We are still in the midst of it. We are still trying to muddle our way through the muck and figure out how to prevent this from happening.

What we need to do is to put our focus on renewing the Church and solving these problems. Certainly part of that means to punish these priests and Bishops, but we cannot dwell on the past. We must move forward, not behind.

Renewing the Church is only possible if we don’t continue making the same mistakes. The only way to learn from the mistakes is to examine them and figure out the root causes.
How do we move forward when some of the root causes are still present?
We still have seminaries and bishops who believe there is nothing wrong with ordaining homosexual priests. Openly dissident bishops are allowed to remain in office…and then these same bishops mold their new priests in their likeness.
These are the types of problems that tell me renewal and reform are going to be very slow going as long as those problems are not taken care of.

And the media is whole other issue. They are scavengers, feeding on the misery of the Church and the victims of abuse, for their own profit and agenda. The liberal media is a plague on society.

God works in mysterious ways.
When His own shepherds wouldn’t listen to the innocent voices who had been abused - isn’t it possible He used other avenues to clean house?
Yes…the media can be despicable. And yet…it is because of the media firestorm that children are now safer and bishops are now being held to a higher standard.
I personally don’t care where the pressure came from for the Church to get serious about reform.
It would have been much nicer if the bishops had responded appropriately to complaints from abuse victims…but they didn’t.
From now on they will…or suffer the consequences.

 

[Lorarose]

I have seen only a very few posts which were critical of victims for bringing suits and I disagree those who made such statements

Our perception of this is very different.

[QUOTEI have seen a lot of criticism leveled against those (and their lawyers) who obviously jumped on the bandwagon to get some of the Church’s money. ]

Well yes…there have been many of those and it always made me curious as to how these posters knew which victims were “phonies” and which ones were legitimate.
How do these posters know the motivations of these people?
Or are they assuming the worst about people they know nothing about?

With the Church running scared, and with good reason, a lot of money has been paid out in phony settlements

Which settlements were phony settlements? And how do you know?
On one hand people here are saying to let the courts decide, and on the other - when the courts DO award money there is insinuation the settlement is phony.
I have seen claims about these phony settlements but I haven’t seen many concrete examples given.

Just as you have pointed out that there are a lot of abusers who have gone unpunished for various reasons, there have also been a lot of false charges leveled against the Church and I just wanted to provide a little balance.

If I had to make a bet, I would guess there were far fewer false accusation than there were unreported genuine accusations, or genuine accusations that were thrown out.
But that is just my personal gut instinct.
Why do I tend to be cynical this way?
Because I have personally seen how a priest can wear 2 masks and fool people. Actually, I have personally known 2 priests who did this quite well.
On the other hand it can be embarrassing, time consuming, and life-disrupting for a person to come forth and accuse a priest.
I personally have been called a liar by people who used to be good friends of my family…despite the fact I never sued or made a public issue of it.
I believe most accusations are motivated because the person REALLY DID experience what they claim.
It takes a rare person to endure that kind of scrutiny because they think there is a payoff…especially when many real victims never did receive a payoff.

So…where some people tend to want to doubt the accusers and give the priests the benefit of the doubt…those who have been abused see it the other way.
And that is where differences in perception can cause conflict.

 

[SORROWS]

But Lorarose, focusing on the scandal and going back over and over again to this troublesome past is counter-productive. It is useless complaining. What we need to do is to put our focus on renewing the Church and solving these problems. Certainly part of that means to punish these priests and Bishops, but we cannot dwell on the past. We must move forward, not behind.

And the media is whole other issue. They are scavengers, feeding on the misery of the Church and the victims of abuse, for their own profit and agenda. The liberal media is a plague on society.

Great post Ceasar.
Rather than complain and gripe and argue, it is best to pray - pray for all of our religious and vocations of great shephards to the priesthood.

 

[Lorarose]

And there you have it folks.
It is considered griping to acknowledge the truth of what happened so that we can head towards true renewal by trying to fix the root causes.

 

[pnewton]

I have noticed a particular group on many of these threads where the victims are attacked as enemies of the Church.

The two are not mutually exclusive. A person can be both. Or a victim of any crime can choose to not be an enemy of the Church.

On the other hand…many priests and bishops who played a role are still active in the Church because many court cases were thrown out due to statute of limitations. So…where some people might say “not every accused priest is guilty”…that is true. But on the other hand one could also say that many of the guilty got off scott free.

You are so right. It is always a travesty of justice for a person guilty of any crime to get off the hook But I notice you claim to live in the USA. We in America must hold to the principle that one is innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law. While this is difficult when one personally knows a crime has been committed, it is also a protection for the innocent.

There is one more thing I think you and I could agree on, though. If one has:

1. passed beyond the reach of the law for whatever reason, and
2. there is an accusation of a crime involving children or youth committed by this person, and
3. the evidence seems to indicate that the facts of the accusation are true, then

prudence should dictate that such a person have no further contact with children or youth.

In the case of a priest, there are other functions one can fill outside of parish life that would eliminate all contact with children. If the evidence is strong, I have no problem with the defrocking.

In any case, the fact that some low like scumbag finishes his life in good standing with the church as a priest does not matter one bit to the final judgement. Remember the millstone awaits.
3.

 

[pnewton]

Renewing the Church is only possible if we don’t continue making the same mistakes.

Church renewal will only come about the same way it has fo two thousand years. It does not concern what we do, but who we are. Let me go all protestant here:

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

(note the KJV )

If you want to know what will renew the Church it is people like Caesar searhing out God’s vocation for his life, whether it be the priesthood or not. It will take me turning inward to find my own areas of sin and through the sacrament of penance and the graces God gives to strive for the sainthood to which I am called.

For the vicitms of the crimes committed by priest, I can not begin to guess, because I am not there. But we do need to continue to pray that they find that which God has called them to, even through suffering.

 

[tequilamac]

And there you have it folks.
It is considered griping to acknowledge the truth of what happened so that we can head towards true renewal by trying to fix the root causes.

No it is only griping if one just gets tuck in the griping phase. People do you know. I live in a town now full of gripers. They wax on about the good old days and how awful everything is today and resist any kind of repair. That is griping. It happens in the Church as well. If one more Catholic tells me I know the Church teaches…but what I believe is… and therefore I am right because my conscience dictates… I think I’ll scream.

 

[magician]

Caesar’s post is the same “let’s forget this incident and move on” psychology that has allowed corruption, abuse and scandals to occur in the first place.
As long as we’re in the mood to forget, why not forgive and forget the Holocaust, the Inquisition, WWI and WWII and every atrocity which mankind has perpetrated upon itself since the beginning of time.

If it’s not clear to you, Caesar, and everyone else that the Church provided a safe haven for abusers and sexual deviants, then perhaps you are the one who should revisit “mass media”, legal documents which provide irrefutable evidence of a massive coverup and other relevant information.

Those who intentionally disregard history, are doomed to repeat it.

 

[pnewton]

Caesar’s post is the same “let’s forget this incident and move on” psychology that has allowed corruption, abuse and scandals to occur in the first place.
As long as we’re in the mood to forget, why not forgive and forget the Holocaust, the Inquisition, WWI and WWII and every atrocity which mankind has perpetrated upon itself since the beginning of time.

38 posts before a Hitler comparison. While no one condones any of the criminal acts, it is **not **the Holocaust, even collectively. The differences far outweigh the similarities.
faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

then perhaps you are the one who should revisit “mass media”, legal documents which provide irrefutable evidence of a massive coverup and other relevant information.

Those who intentionally disregard history, are doomed to repeat it.

The BBC’s “irrefutable evidence of a massive cover-up” was easily refutable, but then we alreasy did a whole thread on that. Disregarding history is not the same as disregarding *magician’*s version of history.

 

[Adonis33]

38 posts before a Hitler comparison. While no one condones any of the criminal acts, it is **not **the Holocaust, even collectively. The differences far outweigh the similarities.
faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/
The BBC’s “irrefutable evidence of a massive cover-up” was easily refutable, but then we alreasy did a whole thread on that. Disregarding history is not the same as disregarding *magician’*s version of history.

Interesting site.