No more vocations in a convent... What happened?

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I think the growth of numbers in a Religious Order has a lot to do with the age of its members. Young will come along, may have vocations and may, as a result of age difference, feel isolated and end up leaving. The same happens at the Parish level. A healthy community has a wide age demographic - everyone needs someone they can relate to.
I remember finding prayer very difficult and drawing great encouragement from seeing someone my own age hard at it and thinking “If he can do it, so can I.”

 

[malphono]

I think the growth of numbers in a Religious Order has a lot to do with the age of its members. Young will come along, may have vocations and may, as a result of age difference, feel isolated and end up leaving. The same happens at the Parish level. A healthy community has a wide age demographic - everyone needs someone they can relate to.
I remember finding prayer very difficult and drawing great encouragement from seeing someone my own age hard at it and thinking “If he can do it, so can I.”

Partially, perhaps, but there are always “age differences” in a community. The juniors learn from the seniors. This is normal. What is abnormal is when there are all seniors and no juniors.

So, in the case of this thread, the question remains: how (or why) did the convent turn grey? It obviously wasn’t always that way.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Partially, perhaps, but there are always “age differences” in a community. The juniors learn from the seniors. This is normal. What is abnormal is when there are all seniors and no juniors.

So, in the case of this thread, the question remains: how (or why) did the convent turn grey? It obviously wasn’t always that way.

I wonder if it is for the same reasons we witness the young moving away from working on the land to working in the cities.

 

[arroy001]

The “death” of a religious community is a sad event that is sometimes simply unavoidable. I was in a religious community for a considerable amount of time and had to leave before becoming a cynic and miserable person. The community was very elderly with an exception. I think that the community tried to become “contemporary” as a consequence of VII, while retaining the habit and very few traditions, and this led to a loss of the traditions and charism that hold a community together. As another poster commented, I entered to become a caregiver and a housekeeper for the rest. I had to pursue on my own and whenever I had the time the study of the writings of the Order, traditions (now forgotten or neglected by the community), etc. Though I tried, I never felt like I was in a “real” religious community, and struggled to be faithful to God’s calling and the desires of my heart. I tried to suggest the return to some traditions of the Order, Gregorian chat, Latin Mass, etc, as another person in this thread suggested, only to be faced by clear opposition and states. To this day, I sometimes scratch my head wondering why on earth I entered that community. And the only answer I have is that, at the time, I thought that’s what God wanted from me. As sad as it is, and as horrible as it sounds, the community is, in my opinion, on a suicidal spiral that only God can stop if He wants to. From what I’ve seen, it is the obviously traditional communities the ones that are growing in numbers. Maybe some communities need to die and be a warning sign for those following the same agenda, while those that are faithful to the Magisterium - in the easy and the difficult aspects - grow and flourish.

Lord help us!

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Arroy001
I often wonder what happens to people who “step outside of society” to pursue what is considered a Religious Vocation, and then attempt to re-enter what in many ways has now many aspects of being a foreign country. I feel there really needs to be some sort of mechanism, some sort of structure in place to re-assimilate a person who in many ways now has no country. A person who leaves a Religious Order especially having belonged for a number of years, arrives on strange territory as a refugee. Perhaps this is why some remain - fear.
Then there’s the psychological suggestion of failure, guilt, and perhaps shame which need to be encountered and worked through. As far as I am aware an ex-Religious has very little on offer for the process.

 

[arroy001]

Arroy001
I often wonder what happens to people who “step outside of society” to pursue what is considered a Religious Vocation, and then attempt to re-enter what in many ways has now many aspects of being a foreign country. I feel there really needs to be some sort of mechanism, some sort of structure in place to re-assimilate a person who in many ways now has no country. A person who leaves a Religious Order especially having belonged for a number of years, arrives on strange territory as a refugee. Perhaps this is why some remain - fear.
Then there’s the psychological suggestion of failure, guilt, and perhaps shame which need to be encountered and worked through. As far as I am aware an ex-Religious has very little on offer for the process.

Wilcox,

It’s a terrible thing. I have a few other friends who have left their religious orders at different stages (postulant, novice, etc) for different reasons, and not one of us has received any assistance other than, perhaps, a plane ticket. I went from being a very useful member in my former community to someone who doesn’t “exist”. I stayed in the monastery for a long time trying to figure out what would happen of me, until I realized that this called for a complete, blind trust in God’s Divine Providence. The real test to demonstrate my trust in God was leaving a dying community who only provided me with the opportunity of being a housekeeper and caregiver to a handful of elderly women, and pursue almost whatever I wanted in my little free time. If the person who began this thread thinks it’s sad to hear a choir of a few elderly nuns, I can assure you it can be more so for the “young” one inside trying to pray the Office, sometimes by herself or with literally 2-3 elderly religious.

I keep telling myself, and one relative who took me in, that the Church must do something to help people get back in society. Right now, as far as I’m concern, there’s no office or mechanism to rehabilitate former religious. And I’m not even going to go into the psychological aspects of having to leave a religious community, not because it wasn’t your vocation (which is, for most, a relief), but because you had no choice and you were in an essentially dying community. I didn’t (and don’t want) any handouts, but seeing oneself practically abandoned by the same Church one loves can be very harmful to anyone. Were it not for relatives, I’d literally be homeless after leaving the cloister. While most people see the liberal communities dying, I know of a good number of seemingly traditional communities that are also dying. From what I’ve seen and heard, those communities have neglected or changed various aspects of their lives traditionally associated with their order (part of the VII call to renewal), which in turn may become a point of potential disappointment for new comers. No, I’m not a VII basher. Not at all. It goes without saying that we must pray for both liberal, “conservative”, and traditional communities, that they may be faithful to the charism of their founder(s), obedient to the Magisterium of the Church, and a witness of Christ’s joy and love for souls.

Religious life is a very beautiful vocation for most people who are called to it. That’s why it’s been around for so many centuries. And, despite my experience, if anyone came to me for advice, I’d encourage them to explore this radical call to serve Christ, the Church, and help souls. It is so encouraging to see traditional communities flourishing - the Benedictines of Mary, the PCPAs in Alabama and Arizona, etc.

Please pray for all of us who are trying to re-incorporate in society after leaving religious life. Looking for a job after several years is no easy task, specially in this economy!

 

[malphono]

From what I’ve seen and heard, those communities have neglected or changed various aspects of their lives traditionally associated with their order (part of the VII call to renewal), which in turn may become a point of potential disappointment for new comers.

This goes along with what was said in the OP. I would find it interesting to have an idea of what was changed or neglected.

It seems that this has been less of a problem (in general) among cloistered nuns than among the myriad and sundry congregations of active religious sisters, but it has (sadly) happened even in cloisters. The dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” strikes again.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

This goes along with what was said in the OP. I would find it interesting to have an idea of what was changed or neglected.

It seems that this has been less of a problem (in general) among cloistered nuns than among the myriad and sundry congregations of active religious sisters, but it has (sadly) happened even in cloisters. The dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” strikes again.

In my travels amongst Religious Communities I sometimes wonder: “Are we trying to preserve a museum piece here?” I am not being sarcastic; wondering about motivation and raison d’etre.

 

[malphono]

In my travels amongst Religious Communities I sometimes wonder: “Are we trying to preserve a museum piece here?” I am not being sarcastic; wondering about motivation and raison d’etre.

I guess a cloister belongs in a museum.

If you don’t know the raison d’être for a cloister, there’s nothing I can say.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I guess a cloister belongs in a museum.

If you don’t know the raison d’être for a cloister, there’s nothing I can say.

An institution can become an idol which needs feeding, preserving and guarding. Slowly as spiritual life is converted to Pharisee practice emphasis is taken away from God: the institution can become an end in itself.
What I feel V2 was doing in encouraging Religious to return to the spirit of their various Founders was to discourage legalism.

Malphono, throughout history cloisters have had many uses.

 

[arroy001]

This goes along with what was said in the OP. I would find it interesting to have an idea of what was changed or neglected.

It seems that this has been less of a problem (in general) among cloistered nuns than among the myriad and sundry congregations of active religious sisters, but it has (sadly) happened even in cloisters. The dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” strikes again.

Err, I left a cloister. And I know of several cloistered communities in the USA struggling to remain “open”. And I know of one in which the sisters left and went to a retirement center run by another religious community. I also know of another one in which the nuns are so few and elderly that they have ladies do the housekeeping and sew their habits. Very sad…

Things neglected in my personal experience: prayer of the Office in choir, recollection, daily spiritual reading, personal prayer at the times prescribed by the rule, numerous items prescribed by the rule/constitutions, etc.

Things introduced in excess: visitors to the turn and/or parlor every day, daily extended phone calls at the expense of prayer and/or work, buffet-style meals for a few with numerous dishes to choose from leading to waste of food, etc.

The thing is, and this is switching subjects, what VII document called for dropping the habit or making cloisters a place for social work/therapy? VII called for a renewal of religious life, not for an overhaul. The problem has been the interpretations and implementations, not the council itself.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Greek philosopher Heraclytus (c.540-c.470 B.C.) said a couple of things I find interesting:
“You cannot step into the same river twice”
“All is flux nothing is stationary”
The Novice Master (of the Carthusians) said once you join there’s no going back. You’ve stepped out of the stream, you cannot re-enter the same water.
People are different, times have changed. The past is a foreign country.
There’s no good comes of being stuck in the past.
And there’s a whole lot of grieving.

 

[malphono]

Err, I left a cloister. …

Things neglected in my personal experience: prayer of the Office in choir, recollection, daily spiritual reading, personal prayer at the times prescribed by the rule, numerous items prescribed by the rule/constitutions, etc.

Things introduced in excess: visitors to the turn and/or parlor every day, daily extended phone calls at the expense of prayer and/or work, buffet-style meals for a few with numerous dishes to choose from leading to waste of food, etc.

Thank you for sharing some of your personal experience. It is indeed sad that some contemplative communities were tainted in a such a way. Quite similar to what befell many “active” communities.

The thing is, and this is switching subjects, what VII document called for dropping the habit or making cloisters a place for social work/therapy? VII called for a renewal of religious life, not for an overhaul. The problem has been the interpretations and implementations, not the council itself.

Yes, quite so. Worded another way, the problem is the dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” and its perverse interpretation of what was actually said. The “baby and the bathwater” again.

Some communities are, apparently, doomed. Hopefully, though, it is not too late to resuscitate others. The experience of the former will be helpful to those of the latter that are able to redirect themselves. And, of course, to those newer communities who carry on the tradition.

 

[Lormar]

Arroy, I was in the cloister too and what you say is right. I would also add that the internet is the worse thing you could have there. As a layperson, I am very aware of what it has done to my interior life, such as it is. For a nun, it is a disaster.

The problems in religious life began before VII. Having read extensively on it, and having experienced it, I have a lot of “opinions” on the subject but that’s all they are.

I will say this: they put their trust in man instead of God for solutions and are now paying the price. I’m am always amazed, though, that they still won’t admit they made major mistakes. One told me that they were “planting seeds” for the future. What future?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Arroy, I was in the cloister too and what you say is right. I would also add that the internet is the worse thing you could have there. As a layperson, I am very aware of what it has done to my interior life, such as it is. For a nun, it is a disaster.

The problems in religious life began before VII. Having read extensively on it, and having experienced it, I have a lot of “opinions” on the subject but that’s all they are.

I will say this: they put their trust in man instead of God for solutions and are now paying the price. I’m am always amazed, though, that they still won’t admit they made major mistakes. One told me that they were “planting seeds” for the future. What future?

Parkminster Charterhouse has a computer, with seemingly no ill effects. The Brother operating it confessing he never foresaw when he entered Religious Life so many years ago that he would have to learn computer skills.

V2 is often brought into question as to its repercussions. I feel it effected each individual in a different way. One nun tells me when the habits were “abolished” some younger nuns wept, some older ones couldn’t get out of them soon enough.

 

[Bebekoualy]

I’m somewhat surprised to hear that these are Cistercian nuns. **Is it a truly cloistered abbey or is it a house of externs? Is it O.Cist or OCSO? From what I’ve heard, the Cistercian cloisters (O.Cist) retained the habit **(for the most part, at least) and their liturgical observance. I’ve heard fewer encouraging things about the OCSO: they seem to have been less faithful to their origins than the O.Cist.

They’re truly cloistered, and they’re O.Cist. and they retained the habit. (even if it’s simpler than the traditional one) They’re still close to St Benedict’s Rule… But they don’t attract young people because of the age of the community.

Caritas11, I really thank you a lot for your so encouraging message. You just put into words what I couldn’t realize. Indeed, there is something to do with them. I have a role to play, and I do love them enough not to give up. Thanks a lot! :blushing:

Partially, perhaps, but there are always “age differences” in a community. The juniors learn from the seniors. This is normal. What is abnormal is when there are all seniors and no juniors.
**
So, in the case of this thread, the question remains: how (or why) did the convent turn grey? It obviously wasn’t always that way.**

There were several postulants who entered. I think in ten years about 5. But only two remained since then. Some leave because their call isn’t Religious Life, others just because they can’t cope with cloistered life - they’re really so!
Since then, the nuns in this community kind of put barriers not to be disappointed.
I don’t know, but there’s something that might have happened. I wonder how there could have been three novices at once about ten years ago, and now not even a postulant in sight. When I made allusions to Religious Life, I was always dismissed. The last time I evoked it was about three months ago, but I’m definitely too young for them.

arroy001, I really thank you for your testimony. REALLY, IT IS EXACTLY WHAT I FIRST WANTED TO DO. But I will never enter this convent without God’s Calling.
It’s a good testimony, and I keep in my heart everything you wrote on this thread. I think it is very useful, I will not make a mistake. Your words will help when I feel impatient.
I’m really sorry that you became “nothing” for your ex-community. I don’t understand how it can happen, and I know several nuns left the abbey I’m talking of, and there is one whom I knew. I remember I cried when the Abbess told me she had never had a calling, like several do.

Arroy, I was in the cloister too and what you say is right. ** I would also add that the internet is the worse thing you could have there.** As a layperson, I am very aware of what it has done to my interior life, such as it is. For a nun, it is a disaster.

This is a trouble spot. It’s been a few years the nuns I’m talking of have got the Internet. Some nun has got an e-mail address - half of them - but I noticed that there was all this lack of demand in this community. I understand that the Abbess is getting old, and so on, and I do love them and don’t want to blame her.
But there are things I know and she doesn’t necessarily: I saw one or two nuns going on the internet after Compline several times, not stopping till 9pm…even later for one who seems particularly addicted to all these pictures on the web from all over the world. Another one always stuck on the computer, for “business”, but also to send pdf files and write e-mails all the time. I also know she conceals the fact that she’s able to send text messages with the cell phone… She told me and said no one knew in the community.

There is this, and the fact that the youngest nun is longing to talk to me when in the cloister. I do so when I’m given work to do for the community, and I know I’m wrong to kind of chat with her, and I see we both need it because she’s the youngest and quite lonely, and I like her friendship. But my friendship with St Benedict reveals me that I should (maybe from Ash Wednesday) make a big effort to keep both of us silent to sanctify her and I.

The community might hire someone to do housekeeping in the guest house, just the way they hired a cook. I see the community gradually dislocate, and I’m helpless (I used to do cleaning for them about once a fortnight, but I’m not fit to do it at the moment). I just pray… and “blackmail” them a bit… By showing them I kind of feel attracted to Traditionalist convents. I don’t sleep in the guest house any more. It’s a way for me to show them that they’re priceless, even though they might think the contrary. I miss it, because I have affection for this community. But I want to show them how much I need tradition, how much it would help them revitalize.

Thanks for all your replies.

 

[Caritas11]

your last comments revealed a situation which, had I known in the beginning, would have been better addressed…

first, and foremost,

“love is a desire for what is good…to love is to desire the good of another…it is the act by which the will is drawn toward the good…”

that said, I would encourage you to focus on some basics of spiritual formation, something which seems sorely lacking today (this situation began well before The Second Vatican Council)…

Q. Whose good is it that you seek?

Thoughts: If the good that you seek is for this community, and you have the “communion” with them I read about in your comments, then there are two spiritual acts of mercy to consider:

1. admonish in charity
2. instruct the ignorant

how to go about this will (of course) come through prayer…and…no small amount of going back to the basics:

The Cardinal Virtues: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, Temperance (and these a hierarchy)

from what I read it seems you have much “data” about these matters…and now, with the details you have listed online, it would seem this religious community and its “issues” have been revealed publicly without bringing them directly to the individuals

it seems to me in what I have read of YOUR comments that The Holy Spirit invites you to be an instrument of God’s Love in this community…

something upon which to reflect…

the list of Blesseds and Saints who were Third Order is considerable…

Saint Catherine of Siena was a Third Order Dominican
Saint Francis of Rome was a Third Order Benedictine

Quote: “Besides those we call the ‘great’ saints, those who had a special mission to accomplish and therefore received singular gifts of nature and grace, there have always been the humble, hidden saints…”
-Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, O.C.D.
Divine Intimacy, Meditations on the Interior Life for Every Day of the Liturgical Year

be bold in what God is inviting you to be and to do in this community…He showers us with Abundant Graces and of course this holds even more His Truth for those who are faithful to manifesting His Will…

your concern is admirable…
the details about these sisters and their Abbess (and everyone) is something to bring to His Majesty in prayer…and then, to a Confessor/Spiritual Director

we are all called to be saints and to live together in charity to help one another in the Opus Dei of sanctification

let the His Life and Light Live in you and all the world will be drawn that much further to Sanctity

In Domino per Maria, Mater Dei

 

[malphono]

There were several postulants who entered. I think in ten years about 5. But only two remained since then. Some leave because their call isn’t Religious Life, others just because they can’t cope with cloistered life - they’re really so!

And of course this would be normal, especially in a cloister. It really is the purpose of the postulancy: a time for the candidate to discern his or her calling before making even a temporary commitment.

Since then, the nuns in this community kind of put barriers not to be disappointed.

That is a very interesting statement, but the meaning is not very clear.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

There is a fashion at present for those seeking Religious Life to undergo a psychological assessment. This is often done by a secular psychologist who may have little comprehension of Religious Life; and yet a candidate’s religious vocation is to be judged by this same person before entry is permitted.
A psychologist with non-Christian training, unqualified in religious affairs.
Is the world running the Church post-V2?

 

[Bebekoualy]

“Since then, the nuns in this community kind of put barriers not to be disappointed.”

That is a very interesting statement, but the meaning is not very clear.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. My English can be awkward sometimes.
I meant that they are kind of very harsh with young people coming, they’d automatically expect a lot from them and judge them immature if they don’t reach their expectancy.
For example, there was a 19 years old girl who wanted to come, she knew the monastery from the web, and I proposed that she pass through me to go quicker (by e-mail to give information about her) and encourage her to come but they demanded that she should give a phone call if she wanted to come. Otherwise, going through me for them would be a sigh that she was immature. This girl finally never came. I think she would if she had just contacted the nuns through me. The unknown frightens young people, and complicating things doesn’t help.

KEVIN WILCOX, I noticed most convents were allergic to psychologically sick people and many compel you to have a test. I didn’t know it was from a non-Christian psychologist. I saw many of the sort, and they humiliate people who believe and dissuade them from practising . (That’s what I experienced).

Caritas11, I understand God might be expecting something from me… And I can’t not reveal what I saw and what makes my conscience restless.