No more vocations in a convent... What happened?

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Thoughts of a secular/non-Christian psychologist on application for entering a monastery:
You want to cut yourself off from people? Isolate yourself from people?
You don’t feel you want to be involved in sexual relationships?
You’ll pray for people? Sounds like messianic ideation.
(Then you try to explain)
Paranoia setting in?
Messianic ideation, paranoid ideation. Preliminary diagnosis paranoid schizophrenia. Better send you off to a specialist in schizophrenia. Don’t want to let you slip through the net.
Letter sent to Religious Order. Potential candidate dismissed.

 

[psr13]

Arroy001
I often wonder what happens to people who “step outside of society” to pursue what is considered a Religious Vocation, and then attempt to re-enter what in many ways has now many aspects of being a foreign country. I feel there really needs to be some sort of mechanism, some sort of structure in place to re-assimilate a person who in many ways now has no country. A person who leaves a Religious Order especially having belonged for a number of years, arrives on strange territory as a refugee. Perhaps this is why some remain - fear.
Then there’s the psychological suggestion of failure, guilt, and perhaps shame which need to be encountered and worked through. As far as I am aware an ex-Religious has very little on offer for the process.

Two of my husband’s sisters were at one point pursuing a religious vocation. Both discerned it wasn’t for them. One I believe just figured out it wasn’t right. The other left because someone had to take care of dh. All the other siblings were either two young or already in America. They had no problems getting back into society. In fact, they are still in contact with the Order. They write letter to each other, and sometimes the sisters even come visit my sisters-in-law here.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Two of my husband’s sisters were at one point pursuing a religious vocation. Both discerned it wasn’t for them. One I believe just figured out it wasn’t right. The other left because someone had to take care of dh. All the other siblings were either two young or already in America. They had no problems getting back into society. In fact, they are still in contact with the Order. They write letter to each other, and sometimes the sisters even come visit my sisters-in-law here.

Guess it all depends on circumstances. Each person’s challenge is pertinent to that individual. Wrong to generalize. On the whole the Church does, there’s not much support offered after leaving. I’ve thought for years there needs to be some sort of halfway place. I keep thinking of people coming from a prison, some make it, some may need help assimilating back into society.
The Order the sisters joined seems to be one that’s not enclosed. I wonder if their experiences would have been different from an enclosed Order where visitation and communication is very limited.

 

[peary1]

Hello everyone,

I frequent a convent which has no more vocations, no longer attractive.
Simpler with the chant, the oldest incapable of helping to the detriment of the youngest who were brave enough to say “yes” to God…
I can no longer stand to see such a life, but I can’t help doting on this community. I pray for their revitalization daily, but there wouldn’t be a postulant turning up. The convent does no longer attract young people, it’s so desperate… and I’m sick with this.

I proposed several things so that they might have new vocations. Like being more open, accepting Latin Mass once a month, or Latin divine offices or things like that, to add young voices for the Chant (if Traditional People would come). But they wouldn’t… I know not why. :imsorry: I think if they went a bit back to Tradition, they might have more vocations despite their age.

Do you think there was something wrong with them to undergo such fate? I heard that some things could generate this vicious circle… no more vocations.

Please, answer me and give me advice to help them. :bighanky: They’re my great love.

The order has probably served its purpose. This is nothing new in the history of the Church. Orders have come and go throughout the ages. When their usefulness and charism of their founder is no longer needed, the order dissolves. It could also be that those left refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit in which case they will have to face their Maker and explain why. But I think it is the former reasons rather than the latter. God raises up new orders in the Church.

Newer orders with vocations include the following: the Foyers of Charity, Opus Dei Prelature, Community of St. John, Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity, Oblates of Mary, Brothers and Sisters of Penance of St. Francis, Host Apostolate, Fatima Dominicans, Monastery of Poor Clares, Carmelite Monastery at St. Helens, etc. Many traditional orders have found many vocations in young people coming their way. There are so many newly-formed religious orders that were founded during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II that it is difficult to keep up. I am sure looking back in history, we will find that this pope was quite influential in keeping community life alive in the Church during his pontificate and beyond.

 

[psr13]

Guess it all depends on circumstances. Each person’s challenge is pertinent to that individual. Wrong to generalize. On the whole the Church does, there’s not much support offered after leaving. I’ve thought for years there needs to be some sort of halfway place. I keep thinking of people coming from a prison, some make it, some may need help assimilating back into society.
The Order the sisters joined seems to be one that’s not enclosed. I wonder if their experiences would have been different from an enclosed Order where visitation and communication is very limited.

Couldn’t say. I personally think that it could have been easier since they were in the Philippines. It’s a more Catholic society there, so they had more support I’m sure.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I’m shocked you think a Latin Mass - or any other service in Latin - would attract candidates in 2010. Yes, in the days of Latin, our seminaries and religious houses were full. I was a postulant in '57, so I know the “inside”. But it wasn’t English that caused the rupture, and it certainly isn’t Latin that will heal it.

It’s unwise to propose measures when you didn’t experience the scene before Vatican II. Things were different inside and outside the Church. We’re living in an age of rampant materialism, and the call to religious life is muffled by the howls and screams of self-indulgence. Novus Ordo Masses can be just as spiritually and aesthetically pleasing as they sometimes were in the “old days”, as anyone can see on Vatican broadcasts (EWTN). So please look elsewhere for incentives to become involved with consecrated lifestyles.

A lot of young people are attracted to the Latin Mass. We drove over six hours round trip to get to the closest one… and we wish we could attend regularly. Many of the Catholic young people I’ve met online do go to the TLM every chance they get… If I had a vocation to go into an order (my vocation is most definitely wife and mother) it would be a traditional order with traditional latin masses (I’m eagerly awaiting my husband’s next grad school and hoping we’re nearer to a parish that has TLM masses because our whole family really wants to go). So I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I was just reading a blog of a young man who wants to be a priest and the TLM is hugely important to him. There’s definitely a trend.

And while we may not know what the masses were like before VII we’re certainly capable of understanding the difference now between going to an NO Mass and a TLM (and yes, I believe both our valid, we’re about to head out the door to our hand holding NO Mass this morning).

Materialism is rampant, but those young people who are attracted to the Catholic faith (I’m a convert) are often strongly attracted to the traditions… I don’t think the suggestions a bad one.

 

[Jane11]

Without the stability that they are entering a convent that has direct connections to what Christ Himself started would cause doubt. Whoever said that V2 rocked people was absolutely correct. Somewhere there are statistics, I think in the Latin Mass magazine (don’t know if I have the name right) about pre V2 and post V2 vocations. If anyone has a copy of it, please post it. The statistics were shocking. I’ll try and find it online but maybe someone has a copy of the magazine handy it would be quicker.
Jane11

 

[Lauds]

Years ago, You would see Nuns walking in pairs everywhere, to me, It was a beautiful sight to behold, & I always went out of my way to acknowledge them. Through the years, I have heard of Nuns & Priests leaving the church, & having nothing good to say about it, after they left. They didnt even attend Church anymore . I was in a religious order for a short time, & there was no fairness there, they played favorites etc. I kind of left with a hedonistic attitude, threw all my Catholic values out & lived a kind of decadent life for many yrs. I am now returned to the Church, & it is the most valuable thing I possess. God was always tapping me on my shoulder, he wasnt going to let me get away

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Couldn’t say. I personally think that it could have been easier since they were in the Philippines. It’s a more Catholic society there, so they had more support I’m sure.

In Buddhist countries it’s the norm to spend a couple of years in a vihara (Buddhist monastery/convent) I’m not saying the Phillipines is a Buddhist country. If everyone were to take this practice there may be a reduction in the number of problems encountered by those leaving.
At the end of every year the Pallotines decide whether or not they want to continue or leave. I suppose the donati with the Carthusians are similar.
Temporary vows is a possibility.

 

[malphono]

In Buddhist countries it’s the norm to spend a couple of years in a vihara (Buddhist monastery/convent) I’m not saying the Phillipines is a Buddhist country. If everyone were to take this practice there may be a reduction in the number of problems encountered by those leaving.

And maybe it simply has to do, as psr13 said, with Filipino culture.

At the end of every year the Pallotines decide whether or not they want to continue or leave. I suppose the donati with the Carthusians are similar.

I’m not an expert in Carthusian organization, but I seem to think the donati are other than those who are actual candidates desiring to be professed members of the Order.

Temporary vows is a possibility.

In any case, temporary vows have traditionally been part of religious formation. The time period for each phase depends on the community, the Rule, and the constitutions. In brief, the steps are:

(1) Postulancy No vows. No commitment. (Usually one year.)
(2) Novitiate. Again, no vows. (Commonly one to two years.)
(3) First Profession, under temporary vows (always simple). (Varies.)
(4) Final (or, depending on the community, Solemn) Profession, which entail permanent vows (solemn or simple, depending on the community and the country).

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Check out this order in Ann Arbor, MI:

sistersofmary.org/

This is a very traditional Dominican teaching order and they have been growing by leaps and bounds.

They will be featured on Oprah this Tuesday 2/9/2010 and it will be interesting to see how she views them. I don’t expect too much from her since I don’t think she’s even a Christian. But, hey, we can pray.

My daughter is a novice nun in this order and I’ve been there to visit many times and all the nuns there are so full of the love of God that it is inspiring.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Check out this order in Ann Arbor, MI:

sistersofmary.org/

This is a very traditional Dominican teaching order and they have been growing by leaps and bounds.

They will be featured on Oprah this Tuesday 2/9/2010 and it will be interesting to see how she views them. I don’t expect too much from her since I don’t think she’s even a Christian. But, hey, we can pray.

My daughter is a novice nun in this order and I’ve been there to visit many times and all the nuns there are so full of the love of God that it is inspiring.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

1. 
   *]It seems those attracting vocations are the ‘stricter’, more traditional Orders. Those offering an alternative to the world.
   
   *]I still get angry that psychologists with no or little spiritual understanding decide who is to be accepted for postulancy to Religious Life. I am concerned the future looks not that promising if this practice continues.

 

[Bebekoualy]

Without the stability that they are entering a convent that has direct connections to what Christ Himself started would cause doubt. Whoever said that V2 rocked people was absolutely correct. Somewhere there are statistics, I think in the Latin Mass magazine (don’t know if I have the name right) about pre V2 and post V2 vocations. If anyone has a copy of it, please post it. The statistics were shocking. I’ll try and find it online but maybe someone has a copy of the magazine handy it would be quicker.
Jane11

Between 1965 and now:
Priests 58,000 (doubled from 1930-1965) now 45,000
(only 31,000 projected for 2020; more than half will be over 70)
New ordinations 1,575 now 450
Parishes without priests 1% now 15%
Seminarians 49,000 now 4,700 (down by 90%)
Seminaries 600 now 200
Sisters 180,000 now 75,000 (aver. age: 68)
Teaching Sisters now 104,000 8,200 (down by 94%)
Jesuit seminarians 3,559 now 389
Christians Brothers candidates 912 now 7
Franciscan and Redemptorist seminarians 3,379 now 84
Catholic high school population 700,000 now 386,000
Catholic elementary school population 4.5 million now below 2 million
Annulments* 338 now 50,000
Attendance at Mass (in 1958) 3 out of 4 now 1 out of 4

Striking, isn’t it?

Does this lack of vocations have something to do with Vatican II?? I think TLM might really help, or an intermediary, like “Paul VI’s Latin Mass”… but most convents aren’t attractive any more because they lack fervour and are old… I see it more attractive in Traditional Convents.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The easy option is to blame V2.
We should be asking questions such as:

• “What are we as a community doing to encourage & nurture vocations?”
• “What example am I setting for others to follow?”

Which seeds shall grow? Men & women in religious life, Naomi Turner, Collins Dove, U.K., 1988, I.S.B.N. 0 85924 704 X
(Based on Australian research, but makes for interesting reading.)

 

[Jane11]

Arroy, I was in the cloister too and what you say is right. I would also add that the internet is the worse thing you could have there. As a layperson, I am very aware of what it has done to my interior life, such as it is. For a nun, it is a disaster.

The problems in religious life began before VII. Having read extensively on it, and having experienced it, I have a lot of “opinions” on the subject but that’s all they are.

I will say this: they put their trust in man instead of God for solutions and are now paying the price. I’m am always amazed, though, that they still won’t admit they made major mistakes. One told me that they were “planting seeds” for the future. What future?

For those that were in cloisters, do you think that you would have the ability to use some “the rule” of your choice and start real cloisters? As these disasters “fold” their facilities would need to be used for something, why not something productive?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

For those that were in cloisters, do you think that you would have the ability to use some “the rule” of your choice and start real cloisters? As these disasters “fold” their facilities would need to be used for something, why not something productive?

(Not certain what you mean.)
St Francis spoke of the laneways and byways as his cloister.

Some of the convents and monasteries are now architectural museum pieces.
The Reformation turned some of them into private homes, some of these are open to the public through the National Trust.

Some of the larger convents and monasteries take a vaste amount of money to remain in a decent condition. Religious Orders dying out, where is the money to come from? Some Orders are not welcoming of older aged (over 40 year old) joining as their working income is not as promising as from those who are younger. Religious Orders also have a problem in finding money to feed an aging community.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The financial challenge (burden?) of putting a roof over your family’s head and food on the table is not unique to worldly pursuits; and as in the secular world often determines well-being and survival.

Pray for another miracle/saint - sounds cynical, but it helps bring the money in.

 

[Bebekoualy]

(Not certain what you mean.)
St Francis spoke of the laneways and byways as his cloister.

Some of the convents and monasteries are now architectural museum pieces.
The Reformation turned some of them into private homes, some of these are open to the public through the National Trust.**

Some of the larger convents and monasteries take a waste amount of money to remain in a decent condition. Religious Orders dying out, where is the money to come from? **Some Orders are not welcoming of older aged (over 40 year old) joining as their working income is not as promising as from those who are younger. Religious Orders also have a problem in finding money to feed an aging community.

The nuns I know well do have lots of financial problems. Expenditure on roofing, on renovations… it’s been years and years… but the guest house is still unattractive… and there is often water damage etc etc. They are not even able to make their laundry.
The money goes into surgery, lookups (the doctor would rather come, few can leave the abbey, and they’re cloistered)…
It sometimes looks more like a nursing home than a convent. I’m really sad and I pray for them a lot, but a miracle might happen and new postulants come… But how to do when you hardly have the strength to give new ones training?

 

[malphono]

It sometimes looks more like a nursing home than a convent. I’m really sad and I pray for them a lot, but a miracle might happen and new postulants come… But how to do when you hardly have the strength to give new ones training?

This is where Mother Abbess might be able to appeal to the Congregation (O.Cist) for help: it may or may not be able to supply some human resources (even if on a temporary basis) to this abbey to assist. But of course, if Mother Abbess is not inclined to appeal for help, whether the Congregation can offer some help is a moot point.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

The easy option is to blame V2.
We should be asking questions such as:

• “What are we as a community doing to encourage & nurture vocations?”
• “What example am I setting for others to follow?”

Which seeds shall grow? Men & women in religious life, Naomi Turner, Collins Dove, U.K., 1988, I.S.B.N. 0 85924 704 X
(Based on Australian research, but makes for interesting reading.)

The first thing to do when troubleshooting a problem is note when things were working and then when they were not. And then ask, “What changed between when it was working and when it didn’t?” The changes to religious life (and much of religious life is the liturgical life) after Vatican II were seismic, particularly in the areas of liturgy, traditional devotions, architecture, etc.

I think it’s far easier to blame “the world” for the statistical decline of pretty much every area of Catholic life after Vatican II. And then I suppose we can hope the world will change and start fostering vocations like it’s supposed to .