No need for crucifix's

[Asa]

Good heavens, in what parallel universe did you think I could possibly believe that God is imperfect? I of course meant ‘nor am I God’.

Again for the final time I ask YOU for just one passage of scripture - just one - that says someone needs to read even a single word of scripture in order to be saved.

One needs to hear ‘the Good News’, sure, that Jesus died and rose again - but that can be done without a single reference to scripture you know.

While you’re at it - show me anywhere where scripture gives a list of the books that are inspired. How do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are inspired and the Didache, for one example, or the Protevangelion of James, for another, are not?

The answer in both cases is traditions of men - those men being the successors of the Apostles. In other words those very same men who by the fourth century had told us that it was OK to paint or sculpt crucifixes are the ones who by the fourth century told us (and you) that Matthew et al are inspired scripture. In other words the CANON OF SCRIPTURE IS A TRADITION OF MEN!!! Just like the tradition of painted or sculpted crucifixes.

Oh ive just clearly shown that im not perfect, so im now a fully paid up member of this forum?

So the fact that you failed/refused to answer the following question means there are no errors in the KJV regarding the account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross;

Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.

So fact is that the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death in the KJV is 100% true and this means that there is no need to look at false man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

I’m so glad I have God’s Word and so I don’t need to look at false man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Please join me in seeing the perfect picture of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the perfect inspired Word of God! Also please discard your false man made images, you don’t need them when you can see the perfect picture of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the perfect inspired Word of God!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t see why it’s necessary to set the Bible against the Crucifix. FWIW, the Crucifix is relatively recent - the Passion has been represented in that particular form only since the 13th century.​

Without the Bible, we would know precious little about the Crucified. The Crucifix provides a powerful visual image of what the Crucifixion involved - which is very useful, when people are barely literate, or have no translation of the Gospels in their own language.

They complement one another.

 

[Milliardo]

They complement one another.

Very true, and what Asa obviously fails to understand.

 

[LilyM]

Oh ive just clearly shown that im not perfect, so im now a fully paid up member of this forum?

So the fact that you failed/refused to answer the following question means there are no errors in the KJV regarding the account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross;

Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.

So fact is that the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death in the KJV is 100% true and this means that there is no need to look at false man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

I’m so glad I have God’s Word and so I don’t need to look at false man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Please join me in seeing the perfect picture of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the perfect inspired Word of God! Also please discard your false man made images, you don’t need them when you can see the perfect picture of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the perfect inspired Word of God!

And your failure to produce a single verse of scripture saying that scripture is perfect means you agree with me that it isn’t. Thanks

By the way you also agree with me about the Canon of Scripture being a tradition of men - and therefore that the equally valid and longstanding tradition of painted/sculpted crucifixes is just fine and dandy. Since you’ve produced no biblical evidence to the contrary. Thanks again

Asa, seriously, think about what you’re saying. You’re saying those 3,000 people who converted on Pentecost purely on the word of Peter and the other Apostles alone had … nothing. Zip zilch zero nada.

They didn’t have the Gospels or Epistles, they certainly didn’t have the real physical Christ crucified before them.

Therefore they had … what, in your opinion? Do you seriously think they either weren’t Christian or weren’t as good Christians as you or I? Or had less of God’s truth than you or I? Is that what you seriously believe? From the day of Pentecost, scriptures or no, the Church had ALL truth.

And just a final thought - you said earlier that a bare cross is OK. Why? If the scriptural accounts of the crucifixion are truly the perfect image and all else is false and manmade then why a false manmade cross, even a bare one? Surely by your logic that too you must get rid of.

 

[Rolltide]

Asa,
Did you even read post #129? For a huge portion of Christianity, most Christians did not have access to Scripture in the way that we have it today. In the first 500 years of Christianity, Sacred Tradition was clearly as important, if not more important, than Sacred Scripture. Further, if it weren’t for the Catholic Church deciding which books were inspired in the first place, there wouldn’t even BE a Bible as we know it today. Have you ever studied the history of the Bible?

How can you possibly explain the creation of the Bible’s canon without the Catholic Church and Sacred Tradition?

 

[revelations]

Ok, here’s the answer so we can finish this:

**NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN THAT YOU MUST MAKE CRUCIFIXES, OR PICTURES OF JESUS. NO WHERE NOT A SINGLE MENTION. THE KJV OF THE BIBLE DOES A WONDERFUL JOB OF DEPICTING OUR LORD’S PASSION. SO DO MOST OF THE VERSIONS. THE KJV IS INDEED THE TRANSLATED WORD OF GOD, IN ALL ENTIRETY. BUT IT IS NOT GOD.

**Now you can take that and prove that you beat the big bad Catholic.

Now drop it, this is not nice.

Asa, you don’t need crucifix’s! No one is forcing it on you! Is the Holy Virgin standing there twisting your arm telling you to put a corpus on the cross and that you have and to say a rosary every day? NO! No one is forcing you to do anything.

Now, neither does one need the bible to be saved. You are the one being forceful and hateful here, and it is clearly showing an anti-Catholic bias. It is not pleasant.

Jesus loves me just as much as he loves you, and he loves you enough to point you in the direction of some people with sense. For a moment, remove yourself from the hate-filled environment you are in right now, and reflect on what we are saying.

Basically, you could live naked in a cave for all 80 years of your life and if you love Jesus and accept his will into your life, you are good to go. Bible or not, crucifix or not, Eucharist or not.

Jesus loves ALL of us.

We are on the same team

Please, go pray hard, and don’t come back until you do! I will certainly pray for the both of us.

-revelations

 

[hosemonkey]

Asa,
Did you even read post #129? For a huge portion of Christianity, most Christians did not have access to Scripture in the way that we have it today. In the first 500 years of Christianity, Sacred Tradition was clearly as important, if not more important, than Sacred Scripture. Further, if it weren’t for the Catholic Church deciding which books were inspired in the first place, there wouldn’t even BE a Bible as we know it today. Have you ever studied the history of the Bible?

How can you possibly explain the creation of the Bible’s canon without the Catholic Church and Sacred Tradition?

We are obviously dealing here with a person who is afflicted with OCD. In spite of evidence to the contrary, intelligent argument, even conciliation, this person persists in his fallacious argument regardless. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is the only other explanation. Or possibly Invincible Ignorance. But then, this is the affliction of most anti-Catholics. Asa, find a Holy Priest, make a good confession, bless yourself with Holy water and say ten Hail Marys and one Our Father. Works for me every time.

 

[revelations]

Asa,
Did you even read post #129? For a huge portion of Christianity, most Christians did not have access to Scripture in the way that we have it today. In the first 500 years of Christianity, Sacred Tradition was clearly as important, if not more important, than Sacred Scripture. Further, if it weren’t for the Catholic Church deciding which books were inspired in the first place, there wouldn’t even BE a Bible as we know it today. Have you ever studied the history of the Bible?

How can you possibly explain the creation of the Bible’s canon without the Catholic Church and Sacred Tradition?

BTW Rolltide, sweet post. I read it and copied it all down for future study. I think it might be a bit of a shock to our good friend though, but if it’s a well sown seed it could be fruitful in the future. We’ll never know.

Peace of Christ,
-revelations

 

[po18guy]

The following is a very clear and perfect command from the Lord Jesus on how His followers should remember His perfect sacrifice; So there’s no command in the Sacred Scriptures to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and there’s no need to make this image because the God inspired Sacred Scriptures perfectly describe to us what terrible suffering the Lord Jesus went through to save sinners.

Go break the crosses off of the Protestant churches first! They have an empty cross-the universal symbol of death! Only Christ, by dying on it, converted it to the symbol of life. You find it ugly? You should - that’s the price for our sin hanging there. Which cross better witnesses to God’s love?

Please explain how your bible is not an idol. It was made with human hands. It was never authorized by Christ. Christ did not write one word in it. He never commanded His Apostles to write or carry one. The words on it’s pages are strictly man-made symbols that merely represent the true Word of God. Do you worship God, or a man-made physical object that represents him?

Remember, you cannot possibly understand the fullness of Christianity, as you currently have no more than 50% of it. Those who told you that the bible is all you need were, simply, wrong.

 

[SPH1]

I’m still waiting for a sensible answer as to why anyone would want to look at a false man made image of the Lord Jesus to remember His perfect sacrifice when God has given us His perfect inspired description of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross.

I mean why look at a feeble false man made image(there’s so many different ones!?!) when you have the perfect image of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross in the perfect God inspired Sacred Scriptures?

Are you also against plain crosses?

Whenever you celebrate your Eucharist (the only way by which Christ said he was to be remembered in a worship setting) you picture Christ on the Cross. The Crucifix merely strengthens what image is already in your mind.

You are a dissident whose sole purpose is to cause trouble in the Church. Any Church.

 

[po18guy]

O*Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.*Asa, a vast number of Protestants decry the numerous translation errors in the KJV. From Google:

biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html
theology.edu/journal/volume1/tr.htm
angelfire.com/hi2/graphic1designer/errors.html
angelfire.com/hi2/graphic1designer/errors.html
religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm
servantsnews.com/PDF/kjverr01.pdf
xmission.com/~research/central/isabm3.html
raptureready.com/rr-kjvo.html
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Translation_Errors_from_the_KJV
fredsbibletalk.com/qa012.html

When you are through with these, Google has 26,390 more references to check. Sorry.

 

[po18guy]

TAnd he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:19-20

You and fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses, Adventists, Mormons, Evangelicals, Non-Denoms and (30,000+ odd) other traditions don’t even eat a real Lord’s supper. Fix that disrespect and we can talk.

So there’s no command in the Sacred Scriptures to…

Face it! There’s no command in Sacred Scripture to even use Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church started just fine without NT scripture. We are grateful to God that He inspired scripture which attests to the Sacred Traditions which Christ laid down and the Apostles continued. I think your problem is that you have no knowledge of the Traditions that lead to scripture being written in the first place.

 

[Delphinus85]

The following is a very clear and perfect command from the Lord Jesus on how His followers should remember His perfect sacrifice;

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:19-20

Also in Matt, Mark, Luke & John there are God inspired accounts of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross. So why did men decide to make a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? Is the making of a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross in effect saying that the Scriptural accounts of the Lord’s death aren’t good enough and that His followers need a man made image as well. I mean how can any mere man do better than what God has done and how can the terrible suffering of the blessed Lord Jesus be recreated by a mere human artist.

So there’s no command in the Sacred Scriptures to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and there’s no need to make this image because the God inspired Sacred Scriptures perfectly describe to us what terrible suffering the Lord Jesus went through to save sinners.

There are a lot of things Scripture never tells us to do that we are free to do anyway to serve our Lord and to better know him. He never says to do devotionals, or the read the bible every day. But we do (or try to). There are some things we do to make things hit home better. The Passion by Mel Gibson really drives home the image of our suffering Lord. See, God gave us our senses to use. A crucifix is there for us more visual people, it’s one thing to read it, but to see a sculpture or carving to visually remind some people is a powerful tool.