No need for crucifix's

[Manphibian]

Where does the Bible say to get on the internet?

And seeing as how the Bible gives a “perfect account” of Christ’s death, why doesn’t it give a perfect account of Christ or His followers refuting sculptural representations of it?

Infact, since the Word of God was penned by men… aren’t these men making (writing) a representation of the events the Holy Spirit revealed to them? How is that different? Do we draw the line only around sculpting and painting but nor around writing?

Why doesn’t the Bible give a “perfect account” of the divinity of the Holy Spirit?

Why doesn’t it give perfectly clear instructions on the proper way to worship Christ?

Probably because Christ gave us the Church to do these things. And the Bible which you espouse above all else belongs to her. The Bible is the Book of the Church, we are not the Church of the Book. If you’d like a totally book based religion may I suggest Islam? Or perhaps Scientology? L. Ron Hubbard will pray for you.

Christ founded a Church, not a book club. Maybe you’re looking for Oprah?

 

[Asa]

I disagree. You come in here and make remarks that can only be construed as confrontational and then want to whine and :crying: when I and other Catholics point out the errors of your beliefs and thinking.

You have no scripture to support your own position and I showed you right off the bat that there is indeed a scriptural principle behind the use of a crucifix.

If you are a post reformation non-Catholic Christian then the use of crucifixes by believers far predates the vast majority of what you hold as gospel doctrines. See here.

Make a good case or admit that it’s nothing more than your misinformed opinion.

I loved that wee whining/crying man, brillant! Actually this is a great forum, a lot of good features in it, well done to all who set it up!

The Bible itself as Gods inspired Word is all we need to know about the Lord Jesus perfect sacrifice. This is a fact and this is my evidence.

Now where’s the clear biblical evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? No fanciful interpretations please!

 

[Rolltide]

You never answered my question of where in the Bible does it say that the 1st Century Church made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Give Bible based evidence.

They did not use the crucifix in the first century. They did, on occasion, use the cross, but the nature of the secrecy of the church to avoid persecution precluded the representation of most blatant imagery for fear of discovery by Roman authorities. It has nothing to do with a Biblical prohibition, but rather common sense. You might as well ask, “Why aren’t there any churches before the 4th century”? It’s simply because the church was underground, and couldn’t worship openly.

 

[Rolltide]

Where in the first century would I have been able to pick up a Bible and find the prohibition against the Crucifix (or the second or third centuries, for that matter)?

 

[hosemonkey]

I loved that wee whining/crying man, brillant! Actually this is a great forum, a lot of good features in it, well done to all who set it up!

The Bible itself as Gods inspired Word is all we need to know about the Lord Jesus perfect sacrifice. This is a fact and this is my evidence.

Now where’s the clear biblical evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? No fanciful interpretations please!

Your badgering is becoming annoying. I gave you the answer that you are seeking. You do not seem to understand what is being said to you. Persist and you will be ignored.

 

[Asa]

They did not use the crucifix in the first century. They did, on occasion, use the cross, but the nature of the secrecy of the church to avoid persecution precluded the representation of most blatant imagery for fear of discovery by Roman authorities. It has nothing to do with a Biblical prohibition, but rather common sense. You might as well ask, “Why aren’t there any churches before the 4th century”? It’s simply because the church was underground, and couldn’t worship openly.

Thanks, at long last there’s an admission that the making of man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross isn’t biblical.

Now this is only one of many man made ideas in the RCC. It’s a man made religion, a man made religious institution!

 

[Rolltide]

Your badgering is becoming annoying. I gave you the answer that you are seeking. You do not seem to understand what is being said to you. Persist and you will be ignored.

Let’s try and remain polite, people… If he doesn’t understand, then let’s rephrase it again. In the end, however, we may simply just have to agree to disagree. The use of the crucifix cannot be proven Biblically without a shadow of a doubt, so the issue is really sola scriptura, not the crucifix. Our evidence is enough to satisfy us, but is essentially worthless from Asa’s point of view.

 

[Rolltide]

Thanks, at long last there’s an admission that the making of man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross isn’t biblical.

And again, neither is it PROHIBITED by the Bible. Catholics believe in scripture AND tradition as equals.

Now this is only one of many man made ideas in the RCC. It’s a man made religion, a man made religious institution!

Ok, let me ask you this… and I realize that it will take the thread off-topic. Do you believe in the Real Presence at Communion?

 

[homewardbound]

Thanks, at long last there’s an admission that the making of man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross isn’t biblical.

Now this is only one of many man made ideas in the RCC. It’s a man made religion, a man made religious institution!

Catholics have been around since the time of Christ. No non-Catholic church has, they have only been around since the 1500s. If any religion is man made, it is Protestantism.

I do feel sorry for you. I used to be just as misguided as you are. Only I was never so cruel in my heart that I bashed others for what they chose to believe. No true follower of Christ would be so ignorant. For your cruelty and ignorance, I pity you even more.

 

[cecilia97]

The following is a very clear and perfect command from the Lord Jesus on how His followers should remember His perfect sacrifice;

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:19-20

Also in Matt, Mark, Luke & John there are God inspired accounts of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross. So why did men decide to make a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? Is the making of a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross in effect saying that the Scriptural accounts of the Lord’s death aren’t good enough and that His followers need a man made image as well. I mean how can any mere man do better than what God has done and how can the terrible suffering of the blessed Lord Jesus be recreated by a mere human artist.

So there’s no command in the Sacred Scriptures to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and there’s no need to make this image because the God inspired Sacred Scriptures perfectly describe to us what terrible suffering the Lord Jesus went through to save sinners.

You’ve just described the Mass. We do that every hour of every day all across the world. It’s constant remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice and His love for us. And we really take God at His word here…at Mass we are blessed with the real Body and the real Blood of Christ, because He said this is my body.

So since we are remembering Him in the way he asked us to, remembering Him when we look at a crucifix is extra.

 

[hosemonkey]

Thanks, at long last there’s an admission that the making of man made images of the Lord Jesus on the cross isn’t biblical.

Now this is only one of many man made ideas in the RCC. It’s a man made religion, a man made religious institution!

Now we get down to the crux of the matter and Asa’s true agenda is made manifest. Asa is an anti-Catholic and is here to save us from popish idolatry. Nice try Asa, but we were here long before you protestants. You are wasting time and bandwidth.

 

[Asa]

And again, neither is it PROHIBITED by the Bible. Catholics believe in scripture AND tradition as equals.

Ok, let me ask you this… and I realize that it will take the thread off-topic. Do you believe in the Real Presence at Communion?

That’s for another tread but im gone, don’t want to do anymore of the following “For your cruelty”.

 

[hosemonkey]

That’s for another tread but im gone, don’t want to do anymore of the following “For your cruelty”.

Bye

 

[Metaron]

The following is a very clear and perfect command from the Lord Jesus on how His followers should remember His perfect sacrifice;

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:19-20

Also in Matt, Mark, Luke & John there are God inspired accounts of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross. So why did men decide to make a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? Is the making of a man made image of the Lord Jesus on the cross in effect saying that the Scriptural accounts of the Lord’s death aren’t good enough and that His followers need a man made image as well. I mean how can any mere man do better than what God has done and how can the terrible suffering of the blessed Lord Jesus be recreated by a mere human artist.

So there’s no command in the Sacred Scriptures to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and there’s no need to make this image because the God inspired Sacred Scriptures perfectly describe to us what terrible suffering the Lord Jesus went through to save sinners.

A typical Protestant either-or mindset, when the subjects aren’t mutually exclusive. Protestants have crosses, don’t they? They represent the same thing, except the sensitive Protestants clean it up alittle. Don’t Protestants use nativities too? That wasn’t commanded by Jesus. Christmas? Not in the Bible. And I guess you haven’t read Galatians…

Or where St.Paul says, “We preach Christ crucified…”

This thread is a typical struggling-to-oppose-all-things-Catholic ordeal, and something we need not waste too much time on. :coffeeread:

 

[briang72]

The Bible itself as Gods inspired Word is all we need to know about the Lord Jesus perfect sacrifice. This is a fact and this is my evidence.

Who is defining the facts here? Christ never said anywhere in the Bible to the Gospel writers “hey guys, make sure you write this down, because everything I say must be documented here so that 2000 years from now my followers will know these writings to be sufficient teaching.” Instead, Christ built a Church with Peter as its first leader, and He DID say to Peter “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:19). He also commanded his apostles to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Matt 28:19-20). Again, He did not say “just write it ALL down and create a set of books and name it the Bible and let everyone interpret it for themselves.” Perhaps referencing John’s Gospel is enough to understand that “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25).

Now where’s the clear biblical evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross? No fanciful interpretations please!

If you require biblical evidence where Jesus said “in addition to eating bread and wine to remember me, construct an image of me on the cross for the sake of veneration”, then we cannot lead you to the “clear biblical evidence” you need. We are not talking about golden calves here, we are talking about images of our Lord and Savior!

 

[cecilia97]

I’ll give you a hint… if you were illiterate, and I needed to orally teach you the Holy Scriptures, do you think it’d be helpful to have a church full of statues, stained glass images, and icons, to pictorally refer to during the explanations? Might it, in fact, be almost required for any kind of realistic understanding?

Plus, what if the nearest priest or noble (who at least can read) is 100 miles away and neither one of us or anybody else we know can read, except maybe our boss who is the landowner…and he’s certainly not going to invite our stinky selves into his house to read us bible stories? Those windows and crucifixes are looking like pretty good tools and maybe our only choice!

 

[Church_Militant]

The Bible itself as Gods inspired Word is all we need to know about the Lord Jesus perfect sacrifice. This is a fact and this is my evidence.

Okay, I’ll accept that as your belief. Now please show me any scripture that says specifically that. If it is a fact and your evidence, then you should be able to support it with scripture.

Now where’s the clear biblical evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross?

I have already offered you clear scriptural precedent for this, but here lemme make sure that you see it and understand it again.
1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” and in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1st Corinthians 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

We must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Luke 9:23. And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us.

Then of course there’s Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Now, I was a very active non-Catholic for over 30 years, and in all that time I never saw anything that ever confronted me with Christ crucified as clearly as a simple Catholic crucifix. Not all the shouting, pulpit pounding, marching back and forth, Bible waving, tongues speaking, preaching, or anything else that went on compares in any way to even the briefest glance at the crucifix here beside my computer, or behind me on the wall.

No fanciful interpretations please!

Sorry, but so far I haven’t seen word one of scripture in your posts and all else has been pretty much just that, so please “no fanciful interpretations”.

 

[Church_Militant]

The Bible itself as Gods inspired Word is all we need to know about the Lord Jesus perfect sacrifice. This is a fact and this is my evidence.

Okay, I’ll accept that as your belief. Now please show me any scripture that says specifically that. If it is a fact and your evidence, then you should be able to support it with scripture.

Now where’s the clear biblical evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross?

I have already offered you clear scriptural precedent for this, but here lemme make sure that you see it and understand it again.
1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” and in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1st Corinthians 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

We must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Luke 9:23. And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us.

Then of course there’s Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Now, I was a very active non-Catholic for over 30 years, and in all that time I never saw anything that ever confronted me with Christ crucified as clearly as a simple Catholic crucifix. Not all the shouting, pulpit pounding, marching back and forth, Bible waving, tongues speaking, preaching, or anything else that went on compares in any way to even the briefest glance at the crucifix here beside my computer, or behind me on the wall.

No fanciful interpretations please!

Sorry, but so far I haven’t seen word one of scripture in your posts that actually deal with your opposition to a crucifix and all else has been pretty much just “fanciful interpretations”.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Okay, I’ll accept that as your belief. Now please show me any scripture that says specifically that. If it is a fact and your evidence, then you should be able to support it with scripture.I have already offered you clear scriptural precedent for this, but here lemme make sure that you see it and understand it again.
1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” and in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1st Corinthians 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

We must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Luke 9:23. And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us.

Then of course there’s Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Now, I was a very active non-Catholic for over 30 years, and in all that time I never saw anything that ever confronted me with Christ crucified as clearly as a simple Catholic crucifix. Not all the shouting, pulpit pounding, marching back and forth, Bible waving, tongues speaking, preaching, or anything else that went on compares in any way to even the briefest glance at the crucifix here beside my computer, or behind me on the wall.Sorry, but so far I haven’t seen word one of scripture in your posts that actually deal with your opposition to a crucifix and all else has been pretty much just “fanciful interpretations”.

Is it your position that the verses you mention above are about making images of Jesus on the cross? I would love to see you attempt to exegete them if it is your belief the verses are about making images of Jesus.

 

[ncgolf]

There is a perfect description of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the Sacred Scriptures.

Nice try at trying to divert the discussion to crosses, seems like you have given up on trying to give Bible based evidence for making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

The issue is the Lord Jesus and His perfect suffering, not a wooden cross. Many people died on crosses but only ONE blessed Saviour died for sinners. No man can recreate what He did and no man needs to do this because God has given His perfect inspired account of what happened to His Son on the cross.

Why even respond to this … this one where you just shake the dust off and move on. Boy if this keeps up who knows what’s next … Michelangelo, for sure, heaven forbid the Pieta or the Sistene Chapel … and if this person had their way those would go the same way the Taliban disposed of those huge artifacts in Afghanistan.

This is definitely one of the more bizarre postings I have read.

Oh by the way … Christ may have not mentioned building crosses but He did say Eat My Body and drink My Blood … so please begin with what Jesus commanded us to do… and I know that is in Scripture.