No need for crucifix's

[LilyM]

Your response is a classic example of someone who in seeking to uphold a man made idea attacks the blessed Sacred Scriptures.

Can the Almighty Awesome God not keep His Word pure and true in the 21st century? Is His inspired descriptions of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in His perfect Word not true?

Have you no God given discernment/wisdom in knowing what Bible translations are accurate? Also please post your evidence of where in the KJV you can find errors regarding the God inspired descriptions of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross.

And did not the same Almighty Awesome God also create us as primarily visual creatures - no denying that we are indeed - and create us knowing that the majority of us (speaking throughout human history) would in fact be illiterate and totally unable to read His blessed scriptures?

God knows full well the simple truth that our capacity to be touched by visual representations of the Passion is every bit as great, or greater in some cases, than our capacity to be touched by the written descriptions of the Scriptures. He CREATED us such that we are so.

And cannot the same Almighty Awesome God who protects the truth of the various translations of Scripture - which I believe He does in spite of many variations betwen translations - ALSO protect EQUALLY the purity and truth of visual representations of the Crucifixion of His Son, in spite of variations between them?

Knowing that some of us grasp the truth of these events more through the visual representations than the written word? And does He not provide the same discernment in regards to images as, as you say, He does in regards to writings - in order that we can see which are true images and which are false?

Surely you dare not suggest that it is beyond either His power or His providence to do so.

 

[revelations]

Sigh…this is almost as bad as 15 page JW thread I just went through…Asa you just keep restating the same tired rhetoric over and over and over again.

Speaking of JW, when they SEE the crucifix hanging from my neck, they SEE Jesus Christ hanging there on the cross and they run for the hills. Those that make it into the house don’t make it past my personally crafted rosary, with a 4 inch olive wood crucifix on it! Why not?

Because the crucifix is a scary thing; it’s the TRUTH! It’s got so much truth and it’s such a Christian symbol that the New World Translation went so far as to say Jesus was murdered on a torture stake!

Now, why is the crucifix a purely Catholic symbol? Let’s have a look at Mat 16:19:

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Everyone seems to forget this passage. Under the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT (you forgot about him didn’t you) the Catholic church guides the faithful to obey the word of GOD. So, if they want us to use crucifixes, and churches full of rich imagery to inspire the imagination and remind us of the pious life, then that’s what I’m gonna do too.

If you have a problem with the Crucifix as a symbol, you don’t a problem with me, the people on this forum, nor the pope. You have a problem with Jesus Christ himself, and with His church.

Reading a medical text book does not make one a doctor. Please pray for me so that my soul may be saved, because I am clearly a hellbound individual.

-revelations

p.s why just the King James version? What if i were to use a RSV bible? Or even, gasp, a latin version from before the 1611 king james bible?

 

[Asa]

And did not the same Almighty Awesome God also create us as primarily visual creatures - no denying that we are indeed - and create us knowing that the majority of us (speaking throughout human history) would in fact be illiterate and totally unable to read His blessed scriptures?

God knows full well the simple truth that our capacity to be touched by visual representations of the Passion is every bit as great, or greater in some cases, than our capacity to be touched by the written descriptions of the Scriptures. He CREATED us such that we are so.

And cannot the same Almighty Awesome God who protects the truth of the various translations of Scripture - which I believe He does in spite of many variations betwen translations - ALSO protect EQUALLY the purity and truth of visual representations of the Crucifixion of His Son, in spite of variations between them?

Knowing that some of us grasp the truth of these events more through the visual representations than the written word? And does He not provide the same discernment in regards to images as, as you say, He does in regards to writings - in order that we can see which are true images and which are false?

Surely you dare not suggest that it is beyond either His power or His providence to do so.

Please post your evidence of where in the KJV you can find errors regarding the God inspired descriptions of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross or admit that your attack on the Sacred Scriptures was wrong.

God in His perfect wisdom has chosen to reveal His truth to us through His written Word. Gods perfect inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross is 100% true but are man made images(so many different ones) of the Lord Jesus on the cross 100% true?

 

[revelations]

Asa can you not see that you have turned the bible itself into an idol? And are therefore guilty of idolatry! Can you not see this? Am I the only one who does?

To be saved you don’t have to read the bible. You don’t even have to own one. It’s not written anywhere that only people who own a bible and beat it over people’s heads will be saved.

You do need to hear the gospels. Hearing them read from a missionary is enough, once you accept Jesus and are baptized you are saved. You can live an entire God-loving life with out ever cracking the spine of any bible. The first apostles did a pretty darn good job for the first 300 years, considering they were being killed left and right, had to deal with heresies, had no email, telephones, or anything of the sort. They just had the Holy Spirit.

In fact, what is behind this attack on crucifixes? Is the Holy Spirit compelling you to do this, or is it your pride, or your hatred of anything Catholic? Please, ponder this question and get back to me, because if you’re not doing it for the Lord you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

So basically, what I could be saying is that I am rejecting this necessity for it to be in the bible. It’s too far fetched.

Peace of Christ,

-revelations

 

[homewardbound]

Asa can you not see that you have turned the bible itself into an idol? And are therefore guilty of idolatry! Can you not see this? Am I the only one who does?

To be saved you don’t have to read the bible. You don’t even have to own one. It’s not written anywhere that only people who own a bible and beat it over people’s heads will be saved.

You do need to hear the gospels. Hearing them read from a missionary is enough, once you accept Jesus and are baptized you are saved. You can live an entire God-loving life with out ever cracking the spine of any bible. The first apostles did a pretty darn good job for the first 300 years, considering they were being killed left and right, had to deal with heresies, had no email, telephones, or anything of the sort.

So basically, what I could be saying is that I am rejecting this necessity for it to be in the bible. It’s too far fetched.

thanks
-revelations

Exactly! So many non-Catholics do this. They try to claim we have idols when they are the ones who worship a book!

 

[LilyM]

Please post your evidence of where in the KJV you can find errors regarding the God inspired descriptions of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross or admit that your attack on the Sacred Scriptures was wrong.

God in His perfect wisdom has chosen to reveal His truth to us through His written Word. Gods perfect inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross is 100% true but are man made images(so many different ones) of the Lord Jesus on the cross 100% true?

Did I even say the KJV (V standing for VERSION don’t forget - how can any ‘version’ of anything be perfect?) was wrong? I merely pointed out the bleeding obvious - that no VERSION of scripture can possibly be perfect!

John himself admits to this imperfection - many things Jesus said and did are not recorded in Scripture, remember. That in itself renders the Scriptures imperfect, since surely if they were perfect they would record His whole life and teachings

Lest I be misunderstood, I’ll repeat myself. Scriptures are NOT wrong or in error, but they ARE incomplete. The necessity of four Gospels, no one of which is a complete record of Christ’s life, teachings, or Passion and Death, is evidence of that.

And certainly no written document is capable of being perfect or anything like. Scripture nowhere in itself claims to be perfect - or even to contain all truth! You show me where it says it does! Only THE CHURCH contains all truth - the CHURCH, not scripture, is cited in Timothy as being ‘the pillar and bulwark of all truth’.

And certainly the only perfection is in the LIVING word - Jesus Christ Himself, and the Holy Spirit, which surely does not just guide us through the one printed book alone! If the Bible were perfect we’d have no need of either the living person of Christ, the living Church nor of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Seriously, Asa, you are at grave risk of turning the Bible into an idol. Much more so than we are of our crucifixes and images, since we do not claim perfection for them or anything like.

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

1. An empty cross never saved anyone.
2. Christ on the Cross saved us all.
3. Catholics do stuff that isn’t in the Bible.
4. Prostestants do very little that is in the Bible.

 

[revelations]

1. An empty cross never saved anyone.
2. Christ on the Cross saved us all.
3. Catholics do stuff that isn’t in the Bible.
4. Protestants do very little that is in the Bible.

Good post, welcome to CAF this place is awesome, and wicked user name!

 

[Asa]

Did I even say the KJV (V standing for VERSION don’t forget - how can any ‘version’ of anything be perfect?) was wrong? I merely pointed out the bleeding obvious - that no VERSION of scripture can possibly be perfect!

John himself admits to this imperfection - many things Jesus said and did are not recorded in Scripture, remember. That in itself renders the Scriptures imperfect, since surely if they were perfect they would record His whole life and teachings

Lest I be misunderstood, I’ll repeat myself. Scriptures are NOT wrong or in error, but they ARE incomplete. The necessity of four Gospels, no one of which is a complete record of Christ’s life, teachings, or Passion and Death, is evidence of that.

And certainly no written document is capable of being perfect or anything like. Scripture nowhere in itself claims to be perfect - or even to contain all truth! You show me where it says it does! Only THE CHURCH contains all truth - the CHURCH, not scripture, is cited in Timothy as being ‘the pillar and bulwark of all truth’.

And certainly the only perfection is in the LIVING word - Jesus Christ Himself, and the Holy Spirit, which surely does not just guide us through the one printed book alone! If the Bible were perfect we’d have no need of either the living person of Christ, the living Church nor of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Seriously, Asa, you are at grave risk of turning the Bible into an idol. Much more so than we are of our crucifixes and images, since we do not claim perfection for them or anything like.

Yes I understand that you refuse to admit that YOU were wrong to say that God’s inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the Sacred Scriptures is not 100% true.

So now as well as attacking the accuracy of God’s inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice you go on to say that God has given us an incomplete account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross. Are you really trying to say God doesn’t know what He’s doing, YOU know better?

I mean God hasn’t told His followers to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and YOU just have to say I know better than God and YOU try to attack His perfect Word to try and prove that the false man made idea of making images of the Lord Jesus on the cross is right. Are YOU saying YOU are God?

GOD is PERFECT, His WORD is PERFECT!

YOU are not perfect, YOU are WRONG!

 

[Rolltide]

Question: Did first century Christians use the Bible, or use oral tradition to learn about Christianity?

Answer: They used oral tradition, as the Bible didn’t exist yet. Although the Old Testament, of course, existed, as did the basic scriptures, the apostles were still alive. John did not die until about 100 AD. There was no agreement at this time on what scriptures were the inspired word of God and which were not. In any case, the preferred method of teaching would have indeed been from the first-hand sources of the Apostles themselves, since they had been infused with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They did realize that they would not live forever and that their oral traditions would need to be written down, and thus was born the New Testament.

Question: Well then, what about the second century?

Answer: The situation was pretty similar. Although the Holy Scriptures were definitely all written by this point, the New Testament did not exist in any unified form. There was general agreement on the use of the four Gospels, with some areas additionally using the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas as if it was scripture. The Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, and Letters of Clement were also often read as scripture. Revelation and 2 Peter were often rejected as such, although many regions did use them. Other Gnostic and Apocryphal texts caused even more confusion. Traditions about the correct way to practice Christianity were maintained by bishops and priests, appointed by the hand-picked successors to the Apostles. Clement and Ignatius, for example, were trained by John and appointed by Peter himself. Oral tradition continued to be of paramount importance.
**
Question: So, how does this change in the third century?**

Answer: It continues much the same, only with many of the Apocryphal texts being weaned out by this time. Certain controversies remain, however, generally about the texts listed by name above. Certain regions continue to use them and there is some disagreement over the general canon. Further, the Holy Scriptures have not yet, even now, been put into a single language so that they would be accessible to a wide audience. They remained in Greek and Hebrew (and occasionally Aramaic). The general inability of Christians to come to a consensus over which scriptures were indeed inspired was beginning to become a serious problem. Oral tradition, led by bishops and priests, continued to hand down the proper way to interpret scripture throughout the intense period of confusion.

Question: Surely then the Holy Scriptures must have been in place by the 4th century? We’re almost 400 years into Christianity now! That’s 20% of Christian history!

Answer: Yes indeed, the Bible was finally codified in the fourth century. By this time, the bishops and other leaders of the Catholic Church were aware that the problem of the canonization of Scripture was becoming serious. Decisions were rendered by the Catholic Council of Rome (382 AD) under Pope Damasus I, and the Catholic Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD) over what would finally be included, and what would not. These decisions were validated by the pope at the beginning of the fifth century. The bishops referred back to the traditions handed down from the early church to determine what qualified as inspired scripture. The Holy Spirit was also able to guide the hand of the Catholic Church in the decision process.

Question: Great! So the Bible finally existed, right?

Answer: Well yest, but not quite. It was, of course, virtually unreadable (as a whole) to the general masses, because again, it was written in both Hebrew and Greek, and few people read both. It took until St. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, producing the version known as the Vulgate, before it would have been widely available for most people to read. It was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD, and not completed until 405 AD.
**
Question: So finally Christians could rely on the Bible alone, right?**

Answer: Well, no, not really, because just 71 years later, in 476 AD, the Roman empire fell under the last emperor, Romulus Augustulus. Europe was plunged into the Dark Ages, and the literacy rate dropped to almost nil. If it wasn’t for Catholic monks that meticulously hand-copied the Bible in seclusion, it wouldn’t exist at all. The average Christian really didn’t have access to the Bible, except to hear it read aloud orally. Even then, the shortage of priests meant that that might only happen a very few times per year, as they had to ride in circuits to provide their services to many communities. This is why we begin to see crucifixes and other religious art really come into its own in the 5th and 6th centuries. The images in the church itself were meant for instruction, and would have been the only way for many Christians to learn about the Bible.

 

[revelations]

GOD is PERFECT, His WORD is PERFECT!

YOU are not perfect, YOU are WRONG!

Asa, you are wrong too. We’re both wrong!

There were no real Christians until 1611 anyway, right? For 1500 years there was unified Christianity, what we call today the Catholic church. Thank the Lord that you aren’t saying these things way back in 1200 BC…you might have been burned at the stake!

Here are a couple of other things that are never explicity defined in the bible:

Jesus explicitly saying he is God, the trinity, hell, and purgatory.

If you believe in these things you believe in some of what the Catholic church has been teaching for so many years. If we are wrong about crucifixes, then we are wrong about everything else, which means that we are all sorely mistaken and misguided about Jesus, the trinity, etc. I don’t believe this to be true. Asa, you already believe so much of Catholic dogma, why not come into the fullness of it?

Asa if i may, why are you so angry?

-revelations

ps And no, none of us think we ARE God. We just follow the church he founded 2000 years ago and swore by his word to guide through the Holy Spirit, and also promised never to let the gates of hell prevail against it.

 

[LilyM]

Yes I understand that you refuse to admit that YOU were wrong to say that God’s inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice in the Sacred Scriptures is not 100% true.

So now as well as attacking the accuracy of God’s inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice you go on to say that God has given us an incomplete account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross. Are you really trying to say God doesn’t know what He’s doing, YOU know better?

I mean God hasn’t told His followers to make an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross and YOU just have to say I know better than God and YOU try to attack His perfect Word to try and prove that the false man made idea of making images of the Lord Jesus on the cross is right. Are YOU saying YOU are God?

GOD is PERFECT, His WORD is PERFECT!

YOU are not perfect, YOU are WRONG!

God’s WORD is indeed perfect. That perfect Word, however, is not a something, certainly not a created object - in short not a written book. I’m not perfect, nor God, but you seem to think Matthew Mark Luke and John were

God’s Word is a someONE, that Word became flesh - not printed page - and dwelt among us - that Word is Jesus.

That’s how the illiterate and those living in the decades before the Gospels and Epistles were written could still be perfect Christians.

That’s how the Good Thief was saved - not by reading a book but by physically beholding Christ crucified. This is what we at least try to do with our crucifixes.

If you don’t know the difference between a written page and the Son of God or God Himself, then you truly have crossed the line into idolatry.

At least I don’t pretend my crucifixes ARE Jesus Christ. Nor am I claiming that I am God - but you ARE claiming - or incredibly close to it - that a printed book IS God, which is disturbing indeed.

 

[Asa]

I’m not perfect, nor God,

There you are your own words, you don’t believe God is perfect so no wonder you don’t believe His inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross as recorded in the Sacred Scriptures is perfect.

Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.

Also again please give me biblical evidence for the man made idea of making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

 

[revelations]

why are you reading a high level english version of the bible (KJV can be confusing sometimes with all the thy thee this that and the other) when you can’t discern someones simple level english meaning?

She said “I am not perfect, NOR GOD” meaning i am not perfect nor am i a God. Sheesh. If she had said “nor IS God” then we’d have a problem

Asa do you believe in the Trinity? That Jesus our Lord is truly God? In hell? In purgatory? Show me where those are in the bible!

Asa I will pray that this anger is taken from you, why do you hate so strongly!

 

[tee_eff_em]

There you are your own words, you don’t believe God is perfect so no wonder you don’t believe His inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross as recorded in the Sacred Scriptures is perfect.

Now you are just being disingenuous.

Go away again, Asa.

tee

 

[Fidelis]

"Never wrestle with a pig: You both get all dirty, and the pig likes it."

What is it about Christmas time that brings out all the angry anti-Catholic cranks? Since Asa is very obviously not interested in anything any Catholic has to say, he is not here looking for any answers we can give him. This goes beyond doctrine.

Scratch an anti-Catholic (especially around Christmas and Easter) and you’ll find an angry, insecure person who wants to strike out at something greater and more blessed than him.

What is it Asa: are you an angry ex-Catholic come here to sooth your guilt over leaving the Church over some moral or other personal problem with the Church? Tell the truth. We’ve seen a million of 'em.

 

[revelations]

Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.

And for the final time i will tell you that I DON’T READ the bible as a legal document. I believe in the providence of God, and have Jesus in my heart. That’s all that i need.

 

[homewardbound]

Asa is obviously just a troll with no life. Their comments are ridiculous.

 

[LilyM]

There you are your own words, you don’t believe God is perfect so no wonder you don’t believe His inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross as recorded in the Sacred Scriptures is perfect.

Again for the final and last time i ask you to give me evidence of errors in the KJV regarding the God inspired account of the Lord Jesus’ death on the cross.

Also again please give me biblical evidence for the man made idea of making an image of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

Good heavens, in what parallel universe did you think I could possibly believe that God is imperfect? I of course meant ‘nor am I God’.

Again for the final time I ask YOU for just one passage of scripture - just one - that says someone needs to read even a single word of scripture in order to be saved.

One needs to hear ‘the Good News’, sure, that Jesus died and rose again - but that can be done without a single reference to scripture you know.

While you’re at it - show me anywhere where scripture gives a list of the books that are inspired. How do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are inspired and the Didache, for one example, or the Protevangelion of James, for another, are not?

The answer in both cases is traditions of men - those men being the successors of the Apostles. In other words those very same men who by the fourth century had told us that it was OK to paint or sculpt crucifixes are the ones who by the fourth century told us (and you) that Matthew et al are inspired scripture. In other words the CANON OF SCRIPTURE IS A TRADITION OF MEN!!! Just like the tradition of painted or sculpted crucifixes.

 

[Leeta]

Asa,

The Bible is not the only guide or authority we have to know what is good and holy and helpful to grow in the spiritual life.

There is also Tradition which is all that the Apostles and Church Fathers who said and did. These were those who knew and walked with Christ and with the Apostles.

In the old Testament, GOD commanded that Moses make a bronze snake and fasten it on a pole so that the Israelites who had been bitten by the poisonous vipers could ‘look on it and be saved’. This was a foreshadowing of how Jesus’ death on the cross would enable those who looked on Him to be saved; not just from illness, but from eternal death. Jesus himself relates this incident about Moses and the snake on a pole to his own coming death on a cross and how he would save all men through this. So, of course, as Christians we should always gaze upon the crucifix and be strengthened and ultimately be saved, just as the Jews were when they gazed upon the bronze snake.

You need to go to another thread where sources of authority are discussed and read the tracts which are on the Catholic Answers website. You can’t really discuss this with us until you understand that Christians have not relied solely on the Bible for knowledge of God’s revelation or for aids to grow in holiness or means to resist temptations.
Have you ever realized that the books of the Bible were not listed in there present state until 400 AD? How do you think they came to know Christ without reading or even hearing all the Bible?
And yet these Christians were the ones who died for Christ in the arena and in the terrible Roman persecutions!