No need to revise the Good Friday prayer for the Jews, says leading traditionalist

[gracepoole]

The bishops of England and Wales are appealing to Rome to change the wording of the Good Friday prayer for Jews in the extraordinary form because it had caused “great confusion and upset in the Jewish community”.

…]

Felipe Alanís Suárez added that FIUV were “convinced that any possible continuing misunderstanding regarding the Good Friday prayer for the Jews can be resolved in the context of the Magisterium of the Church, without veiling the treasures of our Faith” and emphasised that the organisation rejects “hatred and hostility towards the Jewish people, and all forms of unjust discrimination.”

But Archbishop Kevin McDonald, chairman of the bishops’ Committee for Catholic-Jewish Relations, said the difference had caused “great confusion and upset in the Jewish community”.

He said: “The 1970 prayer which is now used throughout the Church is basically a prayer that the Jewish people would continue to grow in the love of God’s name and in faithfulness of his Covenant, a Covenant which – as St John Paul II made clear in 1980 – has not been revoked.

“By contrast the prayer produced in 2008 for use in the extraordinary form of the liturgy reverted to being a prayer for the conversion of Jews to Christianity.”

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/12/03/no-need-to-revise-the-good-friday-prayer-for-the-jews-says-leading-traditionalist/

 

[Corki]

Are there a lot of Jewish people who attend EF Mass?

 

[gracepoole]

Are there a lot of Jewish people who attend EF Mass?

I’m guessing that isn’t the point for them.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Are there a lot of Jewish people who attend EF Mass?

Since when would such a consideration be the test for whether a retrograde, throwback statement - inconsistent with the teaching of the last 6 popes and the document “Nostra Aetate” - should be included in liturgy? Your statement is unbelievably offensive to me.

 

[Brendan]

Since when would such a consideration be the test for whether a retrograde, throwback statement - inconsistent with the teaching of the last 6 popes and the document “Nostra Aetate” - should be included in liturgy? Your statement is unbelievably offensive to me.

Are you aware that the prayer used was developed by Pope Benedict and issued in 2008.

So how is a prayer that Pope Benedict promulgated on his own accord incompatible with 'the last 6 popes"

Is Pope Benedict incompatible with himself?

Here is the English translation of the prayer, as an FYI

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen

How is this a ‘retrograde, throwback statement’? Or what part is incompatible with Nostra Aetate?

 

[StGerardMajella]

The bishops of England and Wales are appealing to Rome to change the wording of the Good Friday prayer for Jews in the extraordinary form because it had caused “great confusion and upset in the Jewish community”.

I write this response in due fairness, and not as a personal attack on any individual person of faith, Jewish or Catholic. I speak in full respect - and admiration - of our Jewish brethren.

To be fair, in traditional Orthodox Jewish prayer books - including the daily prayer book called the Siddur, as well as specific prayer books called Machzorim for Jewish festival days - there are a number of anti-Christian and anti-Catholic prayers. These anti-Catholic prayers are isolated, and rare - similar to how this allegedly offensive Catholic prayer is isolated and rare - Yet, they do still exist.

The rabbis have long referred to the Church of Rome as “Esau”, as a highly derogatory and offensive term. Esau being the brother of Jacob, and a rival enemy of sorts - portrayed as a wild man and a hunter in the first few books of the Hebrew Bible. Or, you will hear terms referring to “The Red One/Ones”, which is again an offensive reference to the red-haired Esau directed at the Church. Few Catholics are, I am sure, aware of these derogatory references.

You can even go further. Some Orthodox rabbis refer to Christians as “idolaters” as yet another derogatory reference to our faith.

I find it a bit hypocritical - even ironic - that you don’t hear the same outrage from Catholics asking the Jewish community to change their prayer books, or to stop referring to the Church as Esau. This is probably because the average Catholic has never read a Jewish prayer book, let alone understands Hebrew.

So, not to play the “tit for tat” game, but we could quite easily make similar demands of the Jewish community to remove offensive anti-Church references in their prayer books as well.

Yes, two wrongs do not make a right - Understood. But at least let’s discuss these issues on a level-playing field.

 

[Corki]

Since when would such a consideration be the test for whether a retrograde, throwback statement - inconsistent with the teaching of the last 6 popes and the document “Nostra Aetate” - should be included in liturgy? Your statement is unbelievably offensive to me.

It strains credulity that a single line in a liturgy attended by an extremely small fraction of Catholics, let alone non-Christians is causing “great confusion and upset". I know many Jews and can’t even imagine one that would care what Catholics say at Catholic services, especially a service held once a year and attended by so few people.

The prayer is completely consistent with centuries of Church teaching.

Let us also pray for the Jews: that our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men.

There isn’t anything offensive in this. The Great Commission hasn’t been rescinded.

Should we also edit Holy Scripture and remove John 3:5?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I’m guessing that isn’t the point for them.

Exactly. This prayer should have been either discarded or changed significantly immediately following Nostra Aetate.

My experience was that the Jewish community was very happy with NA. It’s too bad that it was compromised in this way.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

But it’s not even close to being a level playing field. The Catholic Church has been horrendous to Jews. We have slaughtered them for centuries. Why else do you think they call the Church such names? Christians have much to repent over concerning how we have treated the Jews. WE need to level the playing field by being more respectful of our ‘Older Brothers’ in God.

 

[gracepoole]

It strains credulity that a single line in a liturgy attended by an extremely small fraction of Catholics, let alone non-Christians is causing “great confusion and upset". I know many Jews and can’t even imagine one that would care what Catholics say at Catholic services, especially a service held once a year and attended by so few people.

The “many Jews” you know aside, it really shouldn’t “strain credulity” if one is familiar with the history of relations between the faiths.

 

[ProVobis]

It strains credulity that a single line in a liturgy attended by an extremely small fraction of Catholics, let alone non-Christians is causing “great confusion and upset".

That’s what I was thinking too.

I guess we should say “Thanks for the publicity.”

Curiosity goes a long way and is a good start.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

That’s what I was thinking too.

I guess we should say “Thanks for the publicity.”

Curiosity goes a long way and is a good start.

Perhaps some history lessons might be helpful, especially around Good Friday. Have you ever seen this timeline of the Church’s teachings, actions, writings about the Jews? It’s worth a scroll through.

shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/Timeline.htm

Here are some sample listings:

1320: The “Shepherds’ Crusade.” A Christian chronicler records: “The shepherds laid siege to all the Jews who had come from all sides to take refuge… the Jews defended themselves heroically… but their resistance served no purpose, for the shepherds slaughtered a great number of the besieged Jews by smoke and by fire… The Jews, realizing that they would not escape alive, preferred to kill themselves… They chose one of their number (and) this man put some five hundred of them to death, with their consent. He then descended from the castle tower with the few Jewish children who still remained alive… They killed him by quartering. They spared the children, whom they made Catholics by baptism”

1553: Cardinal Carafa instigates a public burning of copies of the Talmud and other Jewish religious works in a square in Rome

1555-1559: Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear

1566-1572: Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons

1592-1605: Pope Clement VIII includes a ban on all Jewish books in the expanded Index of Forbidden Books

1826: Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

 

[Brendan]

Exactly. This prayer should have been either discarded or changed significantly immediately following Nostra Aetate. .

Why?

There is nothing in that prayer that runs counter to Nostra Aetate.

See the text of the prayer in my post above, and please feel free to comment on what exactly you think is contrary to N.A.

(and, as an FYI, it was created AFTER Nostra Aetate). This revised prayer was promulgated at under the personal authority of Pope Benedict in 2008

N.A. . was promulgated in 1965!

 

[StGerardMajella]

But it’s not even close to being a level playing field. The Catholic Church has been horrendous to Jews. We have slaughtered them for centuries. Why else do you think they call the Church such names? Christians have much to repent over concerning how we have treated the Jews. WE need to level the playing field by being more respectful of our ‘Older Brothers’ in God.

I do agree that there has been historical antagonisms on both sides of the aisle, some of which is quite shameful. One could concoct whole litanies of accusations against each other, which would only serve to widen the gulf and divide. This would hardly be a noble aim.

While one might make the accusation that the Church has “slaughtered” Jews for many centuries, you would be completely ignoring the incredible amount of philanthropic and charitable work the Church has done for all of mankind throughout the centuries - caring or the sick, elderly, and the poor; educating the young, running hospitals and schools, etc. It would be entirely one-sided to ignore all of the good the Church has done, and only point out its faults. Much of the charitable work has been done for the poorest of the poor, in some of the most remote parts of the world.

Today, the Church is not at war with the Jewish faith. It is highly disrespectful - and unreasonable - to ask another faith to make changes to their prayer books, when the accuser’s prayer books are, in fact, much worse.

The truth of the matter is that this is just another attack against the Church. We are demonized in the media, in our schools and universities, and more. In some ways, the attack against the Church is multi-pronged, and coming at us from multiple directions. Satan is having a field day. If Christians aren’t getting beheaded in the Middle East, then we are getting accused of having odious prayers in our prayer books.

As Christians, we have to be wise to our accusers, and we need to fight for our values and beliefs in a world that wants to do just about anything and everything to destroy us.

This particular accusation - against a single prayer said in only Latin Rite parishes one time per year and only then in the Extraordinary form of the Mass (i.e., a tiny minority of all of Catholicism) - is really beyond the pale. By comparison, the daily prayers of the Shacharit (the morning liturgy of the Orthodox Jewish faith) include a prayer directed against “heretics” – intended to be a direct (but veiled) condemnation of all of Christianity.

When the liberal, biased media starts addressing the hypocrisy of these false accusations by our fellow monotheists, then I might start to take the debate seriously. Until then, it is best to ignore such attacks, as they only seek to divide us further.

 

[ProVobis]

Perhaps some history lessons might be helpful, especially around Good Friday. Have you ever seen this timeline of the Church’s teachings, actions, writings about the Jews? It’s worth a scroll through.

Perhaps but words and meanings also change. I think you can throw words such as “perfidious” or “queer” or even “slave” in this category. I’m sure 50 years from now there will be other parts of the liturgy which will become offensive to some.

 

[LongingSoul]

Pope Francis has further developed the differences between proselytism and evangelism and could therefore develop the language of the EF liturgy. I’ve no doubt whatsoever that Pope E. Benedict is totally on board with further development of the prayer.

An article by Jimmy Akin on proselytism.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Whilst on the subject we might ask the Jews to revise or at least publicly repudiate certain passages in the Talmud touching non-jewish gentiles - the ‘goyim’, or ‘cattle’. Here are just a few examples:

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile (“heathen”) it does not have to be returned.

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Why?
There is nothing in that prayer that runs counter to Nostra Aetate.

See the text of the prayer in my post above, and please feel free to comment on what exactly you think is contrary to N.A.

(and, as an FYI, it was created AFTER Nostra Aetate). This revised prayer was promulgated at under the personal authority of Pope Benedict in 2008

N.A. . was promulgated in 1965!

I would like to quote an excellent piece in Commonweal that gives an overview of Msgr John Oesterreicher, one of the key drafters of Nostra Aetate. The point being that NA was able to articulate for the first time that the covenant with the Jews was valid in and of itself and that it did not require Christian supercessionism. There is no need whatsoever to convert the Jews in order for them to achieve salvation.

For the Jews, this was a huge leap in Jewish-Christian relations. Both faith communities were on common ground, with no agenda of proselytizing. The prayer, which we are discussing, negates that completely. It should not be used in ANY liturgy.

So a bit of how this came to be:

From the article entitled ‘The Story of Nostra Aetate’…

"After the war Oesterreicher was regarded as one of the church’s experts on the mission to the Jews. As a consequence, he was called to help draft Nostra Aetate. In the difficult negotiations surrounding the drafting of that document a remarkable personal transformation seems to have begun. Long convinced that Jewish conversion was necessary for the fulfilment of salvation history, Oesterreicher came to accept that God’s plan was much more inscrutable, and that the covenant with the Jews had not simply been replaced or superseded by the new covenant in Christ. Nostra Aetate addresses the delicate question of proselytizing the Jews obliquely. In fact, Oesterreicher suggested that language in an early draft of Nostra Aetate that spoke of the conversion of the Jews be removed. It was Oesterreicher who proposed that the document describe the church as awaiting “that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and ‘serve him shoulder to shoulder.’”

The church awaits, but cannot bring that day about through a mission to the Jews.

So, as John Connelly put it in his lecture, “the man who had been the most determined Catholic missionary to the Jews helped the church break with the idea that Jews must become Christians in order to be saved. The missionary helped end Catholic mission to the Jews….

commonwealmagazine.org/blog/story-behind-nostra-aetate

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I do agree that there has been historical antagonisms on both sides of the aisle, some of which is quite shameful. One could concoct whole litanies of accusations against each other, which would only serve to widen the gulf and divide. This would hardly be a noble aim.

While one might make the accusation that the Church has “slaughtered” Jews for many centuries, you would be completely ignoring the incredible amount of philanthropic and charitable work the Church has done for all of mankind throughout the centuries - caring or the sick, elderly, and the poor; educating the young, running hospitals and schools, etc. It would be entirely one-sided to ignore all of the good the Church has done, and only point out its faults. Much of the charitable work has been done for the poorest of the poor, in some of the most remote parts of the world.

No one is denying the good the Church in both the east and the west has done. What we are discussing is a 2000 year old obsession with the Jews, in demonizing them, killing them, forcing them to convert. The Church has in fact been a bit of a bully, especially as it gained power. One of the things I lecture about in its history toward the Jews is an ironic juxtaposition of blood libel. The early Christians were accused of killing babies to use their blood for the mass.

Tertullian wrote 'We are said to be the most criminal of men, on the score of our sacramental baby-killing, and the baby-eating that goes with it." He complains that judicial torture was applied to the early Christians because of this accusation, for “it ought … to be wrung out of us [whenever that false charge is made] how many murdered babies each of us has tasted.… Oh! the glory of that magistrate who had brought to light some Christian who had eaten up to date a hundred babies!” (Apologeticus 7:1 and 1:12, Loeb edition (1931), 10, 36).

By the early Middle Ages, Christians (now in power) turned around and accused Jews of the same. “We have heard it said that in certain places on Good Friday the Jews do steal children and set them on the cross in a mocking manner.” Even when other motifs eventually predominated in the libel, the crucifixion motif did not disappear altogether. On the eve of the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, there occurred the blood-libel case of "the Holy Child of *La Guardia " (1490–91). There, *Conversos were made to confess under torture that with the knowledge of the chief rabbi of the Jews they had assembled at the time of Passover in a cave, crucified the child, and abused him and cursed him to his face, as was done to Jesus in ancient times. The crucifixion motif explains why the blood libels occurred at the time of Passover.

There are many books on the history of Catholics and Jews, and I don’t want to recount them all. But, for the Jews, they have a long memory. Too many deaths at the hand of the Church.

Good works and hospitals don’t even the score, I’m afraid. This is a black mark and it needs healing.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Whilst on the subject we might ask the Jews to revise or at least publicly repudiate certain passages in the Talmud touching non-jewish gentiles - the ‘goyim’, or ‘cattle’. Here are just a few examples:

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile (“heathen”) it does not have to be returned.

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Have you studied Talmud? How wonderful! It’s a hard discipline. Where? Mine were in Jerusalem and was very, very VERY basic. It takes a lifetime of prayer and learning.