No need to revise the Good Friday prayer for the Jews, says leading traditionalist

[TCEL]

The Church does not deny the option and preference for conversion by acknowledging that the covenant between the Jews and God has not been abrogated. The older versions of this prayer lent themselves to supersessionist thinking, which has had some extremely dangerous practical consequences. Acknowledging the special relationship between God and the Jewish people seems a far better and more appropriate option.

You just hit the nail on the head as to why I’m skeptical of all this controversy. I hope I’m not treading too deeply into matters I know little about, but I thought it was the exact opposite idea of supersessionism which helped fuel the current state of Israel, which is also a situation many progressives and liberals seem to decry?

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Fine, let’s dissect my joke and then give it a decent burial:

You said:Oh those naughty Elders hey?
I replied:Mmmh…I see you are a Forum Elder…

What are your real motives for being here? :ehh:
When you referred to ‘Elders’ I took it you meant the ‘Learned Elders of Sion’ as per the ‘Protocols of the Learned Elders of Sion.’ I noticed that you happen to have the rank of a ‘Forum Elder’, so I put the two together although, of course, there is no connection between them, i.e. I do not seriously think you are a member of the Learned Elders of Sion who spends time on CAF as part of their wicked plot to subvert the non-jewish West. Follow? (BTW before this gets out of hand, I don’t believe the Protocols are authentic either)

When it comes to the Talmud I am not kidding: those offensive passages are not meant to be funny - they seriously reflect the attitude of Judaism towards non-jews, or at least, they reflect the attitude of the Talmud towards non-jews, and Jews have never repudiated those passages.

And now perhaps we can move forward…

 

[Justin_Swanton]

These are bishops working closely with and/or responding to the Church’s Committee for Catholic-Jewish Relations. Are you claiming that these men are being duped by Jewish entities? Why is this more likely than their response being born of their close work with the aforementioned committee?

These bishops are echoing the pronouncements of a religious group that is hostile to Christians - or at least has never disowned that hostility evident in its religious texts. The job of bishops is to uphold and spread the Catholic Faith, not kowtow to its enemies.

And why, exactly, is the language of this prayer superior to the one being used in the OF (which is more amenable to Jewish groups)?

The discussion isn’t about whether it is superior but about whether it is legitimate.

There is nothing whatever in the world wrong with praying for the conversion of the Jews, just as there is nothing whatever wrong with praying for the conversion of anyone else. If there is, then we will need to repudiate Christ’s own words in Mt 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

 

[gracepoole]

These bishops are echoing the pronouncements of a religious group that is hostile to Christians - or at least has never disowned that hostility evident in its religious texts. The job of bishops is to uphold and spread the Catholic Faith, not kowtow to its enemies.

The discussion isn’t about whether it is superior but about whether it is legitimate.

There is nothing whatever in the world wrong with praying for the conversion of the Jews, just as there is nothing whatever wrong with praying for the conversion of anyone else. If there is, then we will need to repudiate Christ’s own words in Mt 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

You’ve now described part of an OF liturgy as illegitimate, claimed the bishops who are invested in ongoing dialogues with Jews (as opposed to a layman who is largely ignorant of the history of this subject) are toadies, and characterized Jews as the Church’s “enemies.” I think we can safely end our conversation there.

 

[Brendan_64]

It does seem odd that we would want not to pray for the conversion of all those who have not converted to the Catholic Faith. Or is the conversion if non-Catholics now something that we are to view as something negative? Are we now in a new era where we should accept that different faiths are different paths to the one end?

 

[gracepoole]

It does seem odd that we would want not to pray for the conversion of all those who have not converted to the Catholic Faith. Or is the conversion if non-Catholics now something that we are to view as something negative? Are we now in a new era where we should accept that different faiths are different paths to the one end?

You posted essentially the same thing here, and I responded here and here.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

It does seem odd that we would want not to pray for the conversion of all those who have not converted to the Catholic Faith. Or is the conversion if non-Catholics now something that we are to view as something negative? Are we now in a new era where we should accept that different faiths are different paths to the one end?

One of the objectives of N.A. was to state that the Jews have a special relationship with God, through the initial Covenant made with God. And of course, Christianity sprang from that covenanted community. From my understanding, the RCC now considers that Covenant to be still binding. As I have said before, because of that fact, salvation for the Jews is intact through the first Covenant. This is unique and not applicable for any other faith tradition.

“Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)” N.A.

“An effort will be made to acquire a better understanding of whatever in the Old Testament retains its own perpetual value (cf. Dei Verbum, 14-15), since that has not been cancelled by the later interpretation of the New Testament.” N.A. Guidelines

 

[Sarcelle]

No one is trying to make judgements on the entire Church based on one aspect of their history with the Jews. We are looking specifically at one prayer which is causing problems between the two faith communities. It exemplifies the reason for some of the strife between the two communities.

What the Church has done to the Jewish community needs healing. N.A. has helped immensely but it took a long time in the making. This one prayer sets things back and Rabbis are expressing that reality.

Also, since the Roman Catholic Church has been the perpetrator in the majority of these horrendous acts against the Jews, I think it behooves the Church to be a bit penitential here.

Actually you are making judgements about the Catholic Church.

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is responsible for the Holocaust and organized progroms against Jews? I have been Catholic for almost ten years and I have never seen or learned an official teaching that we must persecute Jews. Catholics in non-European parts of the world such as in Asia, Africa and the Americas do not have a history of persecuting Jews.

I have not killed or persecuted Jews and I doubt that any Catholic here has.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yet there is a poster here who has basically accused Catholics of being the biggest persecutor of Jews ever. There are tons of Catholics who live in Africa, Asia and the Americas yet we seem to be tarred with the same brush and somehow judged just as guilty as the most anti-Semitic European.

 

[Sarcelle]

Are you suggesting somehow that there have not been any “horrendous” acts in the other direction against Catholicism? I surely hope you jest.

Because certainly we could recite not a few crimes, abominations, and “horrendous acts” perpetrated against the Church by its enemies, whether those enemies were Jewish or any other faith, creed, or political stripe.

As I noted earlier, it would be ignoble to run down a litany of “horrendous acts” against any religious faith, whether it be Jewish, Catholic, or any other. In a Catholic forum, no less, we need not be disdainful of our past. The Church has brought enormous benefits to all of mankind.

To somehow suggest that the Church is somehow villainous in its struggles with one particular faith is patently absurd. For every ignoble “horrendous” act you could possibly recite throughout Church history, we could name thousands upon thousands of positive contributions the Church has brought to the table as a counter-argument.

Why would we change one single prayer said annually by a small minority of Catholics in the Extraordinary form of the Mass, when daily the traditional Orthodox Jewish faith prays that Christians should be cut down, smashed, and obliterated? Do tell. Because the hypocrisy, arrogance, and hubris of such an accusation is beyond the pale.

Have you read what the Jewish Sage, the revered Maimonides, had to say about Catholicism? Maimonides will give you a good idea as to what the leading Jewish leaders have historically thought about us Catholics. Certainly, one Sage does not speak for all - Understood. But why is such a hateful speech so revered, even today?

Good grief. No bias there. Be wise as serpents, my friend.

The only reason why the enemies of the Church want this prayer removed is that they don’t believe that Jesus is the Christ. For this reason, they hate the Church, and will seek any mechanism available to attack and destroy it. If they were truly interested in better relations, they would start with removing their own prayers that defame the Church.

And, the prayer is hardly offensive. It asks for conversion. That sounds a lot better than smashing and obliterating Christians prayed daily by our counterparts.

 

[Sarcelle]

Well the US is just one country in the Americas.

What do you consider ironic? I have not painted anyone with the same brush. What post have I written doing this? Can you point it out?

 

[Justin_Swanton]

You’ve now described part of an OF liturgy as illegitimate,

I never mentioned the OF.

claimed the bishops who are invested in ongoing dialogues with Jews (as opposed to a layman who is largely ignorant of the history of this subject) are toadies,

Yes. They are.

and characterized Jews as the Church’s “enemies.”

I don’t think ***all ***Jews personally believe those passages quoted earlier in the thread. I’m talking about a religious system that - to the present day - still officially endorses them. The system as such continues to keep, as part of its sacred writings, affirmations that show extreme hostility towards Catholics and other non-jews. It is for contemporary Judaism to prove it is not an enemy of Catholicism by repudiating those passages.

I think we can safely end our conversation there.

Fine, as you wish.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Agreed, I can’t. I hardly think the average Jew considers non-jewish children to be sub-human, or is just waiting for the opportunity to rob or murder his gentile neighbours. The point though is that prominent Jewish organisations protest at the Good Friday prayer for the conversion of Jews. They’re free to do that if they want to, but then they have to excise any anti-gentile sentiments in their own religious writings and prayers or stand convicted of hypocrisy. And the stuff in the Talmud is in another class altogether from anything you will find in Church documents (as opposed to pronouncements from individual Catholics, however prestigious).

 

[Justin_Swanton]

On the subject of the dreadful things done to Jews in the past by the Church, I would be interested in seeing a little proof, i.e. some concrete facts as opposed to sweeping affirmations. But this is a vast subject and I am under extreme work pressure at present, so perhaps it is better left for another time.

 

[gracepoole]

First:

I never mentioned the OF.

And why, exactly, is the language of this prayer superior to the one being used in the OF (which is more amenable to Jewish groups)?

The discussion isn’t about whether it is superior but about whether it is legitimate.

Second:

I don’t think ***all ***Jews personally believe those passages quoted earlier in the thread. I’m talking about a religious system that - to the present day - still officially endorses them.

These bishops are echoing the pronouncements of a religious group that is hostile to Christians

Positioning your own interpretations of the Jewish faith, the Talmud, and dialogues between Jews and Catholics as superior to those of the Magisterium is one way to go, I suppose…

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Positioning your own interpretations of the Jewish faith, the Talmud, and dialogues between Jews and Catholics as superior to those of the Magisterium is one way to go, I suppose…

All right, let’s clear it up.

The point of this thread is whether the EF Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews is OK or not. Nobody is questioning the prayer in the OF. I maintain there is nothing wrong with the EF prayer - it is legitimate in the sense that it is kosher . In this thread I have nothing to say about the OF prayer.

I have no personal interpretations of the Talmud - I just quoted it.

Re the Magisterium, the whole ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and bishops has nothing to do with official Church teaching. It’s about the practical rapport between Judaism and Catholicism, not about doctrine.

 

[gracepoole]

All right, let’s clear it up.

The point of this thread is whether the EF Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews is OK or not. Nobody is questioning the prayer in the OF. I maintain there is nothing wrong with the EF prayer - it is legitimate in the sense that it is kosher . In this thread I have nothing to say about the OF prayer.

I have no personal interpretations of the Talmud - I just quoted it.

Re the Magisterium, the whole ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and bishops has nothing to do with official Church teaching. It’s about the practical rapport between Judaism and Catholicism, not about doctrine.

Nostra Aetate and its approach to Jewish-Catholic dialogue are magisterial teaching. Nowhere in that document are Jews or the Jewish faith referred to as “enemies.” Quite the opposite, in fact. And I’ve asked multiple times why the OF prayer is somehow inferior to the prayer in the EF. If it isn’t and, as you say, “nobody is questioning the prayer in the OF,” no one should have a problem with excising the EF prayer and replacing it with the OF prayer.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

On the subject of the dreadful things done to Jews in the past by the Church, I would be interested in seeing a little proof, i.e. some concrete facts as opposed to sweeping affirmations. But this is a vast subject and I am under extreme work pressure at present, so perhaps it is better left for another time.

See the succinct Timeline I posted in #12. It will give you an overview on the Church’s teachings as well as actions towards Jews going back to the Early Church.

Also, do you know of the scholarship being done in the area of Catholic Anti-Semitism? It is extensive, especially given University centers for Jewish -Christian studies, such as the one at Seton Hall. Here are some scholars to consider:

John Connelly - From Enemy to Brother
Fr John Pawlikowski
Sr Rose Thering
Fr Edward Flannery - The Anguish of the Jews: 23 centuries of antisemitism
Robert Michael - A History of Catholic Antisemitism: the dark side of the Church

 

[Brendan_64]

You posted essentially the same thing here, and I responded here and here.

You are free to refrain from responding if you find my posts repetitive.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Swanton View Post
On the subject of the dreadful things done to Jews in the past by the Church, I would be interested in seeing a little proof, i.e. some concrete facts as opposed to sweeping affirmations. But this is a vast subject and I am under extreme work pressure at present, so perhaps it is better left for another time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ghetto

So, we should change a liturgical prayer because of an edict that took place in the 1500’s in Italy? And are we really planning to utilize Wikipedia articles as evidence against the Church?

Should we not be taking these allegations into proper historical context, and address what would lead the Church to take even-handed measures to protect itself from its enemies?

As I stated before, the allegations can cut both ways. Both sides can dredge up derogatory accusations and inflammatory rhetoric about each other. We could cite tomes of history on both sides. This could go on ad infinitum.

If you are truly interested in these matters, perhaps one of the most interesting books on the subject from a more modern Catholic perspective is the book, “Anguish of the Jews”, written by Fr. Edward Flannery. This book outlines the historical struggles between the two faiths through the centuries, and engages in a rather particular and unusual criticism of the Church.

And, while there are instances described in this book that would make any Catholic wince, it fails terribly to address the other side of the equation - I.e., the considerable beneficent contributions of the Church throughout the ages.

As I have stated repeatedly throughout this thread, the matter at hand concerning the Good Friday prayer is simply another vicious attack against Christ and His Church. We should not be so naive as to believe that the criticism of the Good Friday prayer is any attempt at reconciliation or goodwill.

We should not change our liturgy or Catholic doctrine simply because anti-Catholics are somehow “offended”.

A real genuine gesture of ecumenical goodwill would be the acknowledgement that the Jewish faith needs to remove defamatory anti-Catholic prayers from their own prayer books, before even asking us to consider making changes to the Good Friday prayer.

See the succinct Timeline I posted in #12. It will give you an overview on the Church’s teachings as well as actions towards Jews going back to the Early Church.

We could post a similar historical timeline of the Jewish Sages’ extensive teachings and actions against the Church over the centuries.