No need to revise the Good Friday prayer for the Jews, says leading traditionalist

[Brendan_64]

Nostra Aetate and its approach to Jewish-Catholic dialogue are magisterial teaching. Nowhere in that document are Jews or the Jewish faith referred to as “enemies.” Quite the opposite, in fact. And I’ve asked multiple times why the OF prayer is somehow inferior to the prayer in the EF. If it isn’t and, as you say, “nobody is questioning the prayer in the OF,” no one should have a problem with excising the EF prayer and replacing it with the OF prayer.

Nostra Aetate does not change the essential truth that we are called to make disciples of all nations, that there is only one true Faith, and that prayers for the conversion of others (including the Jews) is entirely appropriate. It is not as if praying for the conversion of the Jews is the same as personally blaming them for putting Christ to death.

The prayer for the conversion of all people of England to the Catholic Faith is said at the end of the bidding prayers in quite a few OF Masses in England. Should such prayers include a caveat saying that this of course refers to all people apart from Jewish people?

And as for the OF prayer, if it is not superior to the EF prayer then your argument could equally be used to replace the OF prayer with the EF prayer. One could argue that that would be more consistent with our call to evangelise and convert all to the Catholic Faith. When Christ said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” he didn’t included a clause excluding the Jews.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Yes. By ‘personal interpretations’ I meant taking ambiguous or unclear passages in the Talmud and making them say something they don’t. But the quoted passages are clear as the light of day. They are unambiguously ‘hate speech’. No need for 'interpretation" - one just has to cite them and draw the obvious conclusion.

Perhaps we could take this conversation to a higher level: admit the obvious and move on. What say?

 

[StGerardMajella]

See the text of Cum nimis absurbdum for another example that has caused problems of dislike and hate on both sides down the years since it was authored.

Read Maimonides, the revered Jewish Sage, and what he has to say about Catholicism and Christianity. It cuts both ways. We are repeatedly accused of being idol worshipers, heretics, and worse.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

See the succinct Timeline I posted in #12. It will give you an overview on the Church’s teachings as well as actions towards Jews going back to the Early Church.

Also, do you know of the scholarship being done in the area of Catholic Anti-Semitism? It is extensive, especially given University centers for Jewish -Christian studies, such as the one at Seton Hall. Here are some scholars to consider:

John Connelly - From Enemy to Brother
Fr John Pawlikowski
Sr Rose Thering
Fr Edward Flannery - The Anguish of the Jews: 23 centuries of antisemitism
Robert Michael - A History of Catholic Antisemitism: the dark side of the Church

Actually I’ve done some historical research specifically relating to the politics and condition of the Roman army in the late Western Roman Empire in the 5th century and beyond (some Gallic legions survived the official fall of the Western Empire by nearly a century). In the process I Iearned not to trust scholars but to go to primary sources - preferably read in the original language.

Doing the history of the Church’s treatment of the Jews involves not only getting to the facts of what happened but also putting them in context:

• was is the Church in her official pronouncements as such or individual churchmen or laymen who were responsible for any mistreatment of the Jews?
• just how bad and widespread was that treatment? (e.g. the Jewish ghetto in Rome - were poorer Catholics in Rome just as badly off or better off?)
• was Judaism in fact a social or political threat at that time?
• what did the Church do to protect or help the Jews?

And so on. The point is not to exonerate Catholics from any abuse of Jews where they are guilty of abuse, but to apply to this subject the fact that what the Church teaches and what Catholics on the ground actually do can sometimes be two very different things. If you want to judge the Church, judge her by her best members, not by her worst. How did the canonised saints treat the Jews?

But as another poster said, this could be an endless topic and is not really necessary for the thread.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Read Maimonides, the revered Jewish Sage, and what he has to say about Catholicism and Christianity. It cuts both ways. We are repeatedly accused of being idol worshipers, heretics, and worse.

Well, but don’t some Christians - mostly Protestants - say the same thing about Catholics? I’ve read such things on this forum. And many Catholics here are quick to use the word ‘heretic’ for anyone non-Catholic. I’ve even seen Forum Admins ask people to stop.

I am not minimizing the name calling on either side. As equal partners in Dialogue, we have a right to challenge each other over such texts. However, one point I want to reiterate is that up until the N.A. was written, we were NOT equal partners. The Jews were the Church’s victims.

 

[meltzerboy]

I write this response in due fairness, and not as a personal attack on any individual person of faith, Jewish or Catholic. I speak in full respect - and admiration - of our Jewish brethren.

To be fair, in traditional Orthodox Jewish prayer books - including the daily prayer book called the Siddur, as well as specific prayer books called Machzorim for Jewish festival days - there are a number of anti-Christian and anti-Catholic prayers. These anti-Catholic prayers are isolated, and rare - similar to how this allegedly offensive Catholic prayer is isolated and rare - Yet, they do still exist.

The rabbis have long referred to the Church of Rome as “Esau”, as a highly derogatory and offensive term. Esau being the brother of Jacob, and a rival enemy of sorts - portrayed as a wild man and a hunter in the first few books of the Hebrew Bible. Or, you will hear terms referring to “The Red One/Ones”, which is again an offensive reference to the red-haired Esau directed at the Church. Few Catholics are, I am sure, aware of these derogatory references.

You can even go further. Some Orthodox rabbis refer to Christians as “idolaters” as yet another derogatory reference to our faith.

I find it a bit hypocritical - even ironic - that you don’t hear the same outrage from Catholics asking the Jewish community to change their prayer books, or to stop referring to the Church as Esau. This is probably because the average Catholic has never read a Jewish prayer book, let alone understands Hebrew.

So, not to play the “tit for tat” game, but we could quite easily make similar demands of the Jewish community to remove offensive anti-Church references in their prayer books as well.

Yes, two wrongs do not make a right - Understood. But at least let’s discuss these issues on a level-playing field.

I would advise those who are interested in this subject to read Ruth Langer’s book “Cursing the Christians? A History of the Birkat HaMinim.” The historical context, diverse interpretations, and evolution of this Jewish prayer is fascinating, and Langer’s book tackles all the challenges of language, alternate meanings, rabbinical interpretations, and so on.

Further, Reform Judaism no longer includes the prayer in ANY of its meanings or revisions in its liturgy, and even many mainstream Orthodox synagogues use an alternative version which cannot be interpreted as an insult directed toward Christians. Some Hasidic Orthodox congregations do retain the original, uncensored version.

 

[Sarcelle]

I would advise those who are interested in this subject to read Ruth Langer’s book “Cursing the Christians? A History of the Birkat HaMinim.” The historical context, diverse interpretations, and evolution of this Jewish prayer is fascinating, and Langer’s book tackles all the challenges of language, alternate meanings, rabbinical interpretations, and so on.

Further, Reform Judaism no longer includes the prayer in ANY of its meanings or revisions in its liturgy, and even many mainstream Orthodox synagogues use an alternative version which cannot be interpreted as an insult directed toward Christians. Some Hasidic Orthodox congregations do retain the original, uncensored version.

If you don’t mind, what is your take on the view that has been put forth on this thread that the Catholic Church is the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people. I have lived in Asia and the Americas so I am confuzzled (confused and puzzled) about this. I have been to Catholic Churches on both continents and have never heard any official Church doctrine saying that Jews must be hated.

 

[StGerardMajella]

The Jews were the Church’s victims.

Harsh language. Again, there is more than enough evidence to support the notion that the Church has been the historical victim of persecution, and not the other way around. It’s all a matter of perspective, and how one defines the terms “victim” and “persecution”. He who is without sin can cast the first stone.

If you want me to cite evidence of Jewish persecution of the Church throughout the ages, you will have to look elsewhere. I wouldn’t be so foolish as to head down that deep and treacherous road. I’ve already cited enough support earlier to allow any reader of this thread to conduct their own due diligence. You don’t have to look far.

Regardless, we should not change our religious prayers because some anti-Catholics are somehow “offended”. We don’t change our liturgical prayers and doctrine based on the whims and fancies of anti-Catholics.

In reality, this is a media blitzkrieg by the progressive left to undermine the traditional Catholic faith under the guise of “ecumenism”. This is not a genuine attempt at reconciliation. At best, it’s subtle and mean-spirited hypocrisy. At worst, it’s virulent anti-Catholicism. The media has done everything in its power to undermine the Catholic Church at every turn. This is just more of the same, and shouldn’t be taken with any degree of seriousness.

This is the same media that wants legalized abortion, gay marriage, and the rest of the secular, progressive agenda. The Holy Roman Catholic Church stands diametrically opposed to this agenda, especially the traditionalist wing of the Church.

 

[meltzerboy]

Read Maimonides, the revered Jewish Sage, and what he has to say about Catholicism and Christianity. It cuts both ways. We are repeatedly accused of being idol worshipers, heretics, and worse.

Some Orthodox Jews consider both Conservative and Reform Jews heretics. Some Catholics consider Protestants heretics. But in both instances, the understanding of the term and the feeling attached to it by most people is more in line with “separated brethren” than evil-doers.

Please read Maimonides more carefully, if you have already read some of his work. I think you will find a more nuanced position among his writings regarding Christianity than you currently give him credit for.

Besides, the view of Christianity as a religion of idol worshiping is a very old one and presently is held only by the most rigid, close-minded Orthodox Jews (not the majority by any means) just as, I’m sure, there are still some very rigid, traditional Catholics who hold to an antisemitic opinion of Jews.

 

[meltzerboy]

If you don’t mind, what is your take on the view that has been put forth on this thread that the Catholic Church is the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people. I have lived in Asia and the Americas so I am confuzzled (confused and puzzled) about this. I have been to Catholic Churches on both continents and have never heard any official Church doctrine saying that Jews must be hated.

In my view, the Catholic Church today is not only definitely NOT the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people but is probably their best friend. The biggest persecutor of Jews in today’s world is the radical terrorists, both domestic and foreign, who have distorted their Islamic religion’s moral values for their own ends. I don’t believe Christian intolerance toward Jews has fully disappeared but the greatest threat to the very survival of both Jews and Christians is the barbaric behavior of Muslim terrorists.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Besides, the view of Christianity as a religion of idol worshiping is a very old one and presently is held only by the most rigid, close-minded Orthodox Jews (not the majority by any means) just as, I’m sure, there are still some very rigid, traditional Catholics who hold to an antisemitic opinion of Jews.

The Good Friday prayer is stated by only a very tiny minority of Catholics in the older Extraordinary Form of the Mass (sometimes referred to as the old Latin Mass, or “Tridentine” Mass). The prayer is said once a year, on Good Friday, and only in a pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, which means…hardly ever.

There are only a small number of parishes in any Archdiocese that even celebrate the old Latin Mass. Only the traditionalist side of the Church regularly celebrates this liturgy. They are, by far, in the minority.

 

[Sarcelle]

In my view, the Catholic Church today is not only definitely NOT the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people but is probably their best friend. The biggest persecutor of Jews in today’s world is the radical terrorists, both domestic and foreign, who have distorted their Islamic religion’s moral values for their own ends. I don’t believe Christian intolerance toward Jews has fully disappeared but the greatest threat to the very survival of both Jews and Christians is the barbaric behavior of Muslim terrorists.

Thank you.

Muslim terrorists have pretty much targeted everyone who is not exactly like them.

I have also met so called Christians who have harbor anti-Semitic views but again this puzzles me. Don’t they know that Jesus was Jewish?

But then again these so called Christians were also white supremacists so they hated me even more due to the fact that I am not white.

 

[gracepoole]

Nostra Aetate does not change the essential truth that we are called to make disciples of all nations, that there is only one true Faith, and that prayers for the conversion of others (including the Jews) is entirely appropriate. It is not as if praying for the conversion of the Jews is the same as personally blaming them for putting Christ to death.

Of course. Nor did I claim anything different. Again, it’s a red herring to claim that anyone here is offended by praying that people convert to Christianity. At issue is the language used to do so.

Earlier, I said, “Please explain why one version is inferior to the other and why the latter version is evidence that Christians are ashamed to desire conversion for non-Christians.” You responded by stating, “Only one version actually calls for the conversion of the Jews to follow Christ as their saviour.” You chose not to respond to my subsequent comments: “So the change in language was a mistake, then? Should the pre-1955 prayer (which included the word ‘faithless’) have been kept instead? Are those attending the OF and using the updated version somehow offended by conversion, then? Why would the Church permit such language if this is the outcome?”

And as for the OF prayer, if it is not superior to the EF prayer then your argument could equally be used to replace the OF prayer with the EF prayer. One could argue that that would be more consistent with our call to evangelise and convert all to the Catholic Faith. When Christ said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” he didn’t included a clause excluding the Jews.

This is why I asked why we’ve been given two different versions. This is a genuine question. I do find it odd that more than one poster here has identified the OF version as sub par in some way. Surely the Church would not have approved the OF form if it denied the teaching of Christ to convert others. Or is this what people think happened?

 

[gracepoole]

You are free to refrain from responding if you find my posts repetitive.

No – just finding it curious.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

In my view, the Catholic Church today is not only definitely NOT the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people but is probably their best friend… I don’t believe Christian intolerance toward Jews has fully disappeared but the greatest threat to the very survival of both Jews and Christians is the barbaric behavior of Muslim terrorists.

I agree with you fully that the relationship between the Christian Church and Judaism is very good these days. People like Eugene Fisher and Jim Rudin have spent their careers building that relationship. Nostra Aetate was certainly a turning point.

 

[Brendan_64]

In my view, the Catholic Church today is not only definitely NOT the biggest persecutor of the Jewish people but is probably their best friend.

That view won’t please some ‘liberal’ Catholics who seem to to think of themselves as belonging to a patriarchal organisation that oppresses minorities.It’s the liberal Christian’s equivalent of a hair-shirt.

…the greatest threat to the very survival of both Jews and Christians is the barbaric behavior of Muslim terrorists.

Yes indeed. That is something that current events would seem to highlight as self-evident, but there seems to be a real reluctance to recognise or acknowledge this among certain quarters, it goes against the Western liberal narrative of who is supposed to be the victim and who is supposed to be the oppressor.

 

[Mongo]

Since when would such a consideration be the test for whether a retrograde, throwback statement - inconsistent with the teaching of the last 6 popes and the document “Nostra Aetate” - should be included in liturgy? Your statement is unbelievably offensive to me.

So are you claiming that the Church no longer believes that noncatholcs need to convert? If that is the case I might as well join the Orthodox Church. That way I receive the blessing of both The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

 

[Mongo]

Are many Catholics now embarrassed by their own faith?

Are they embarrassed by Jesus’ command and desire that all should convert to the Catholic Church?

Do they not believe the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ?

Do they not believe that Jews are equally worthy persons who deserve the hear the Gospel message and receive our prayers?

That seems to be the case. We are encouraged to hate ourselves and the fact that we are Catholic. It’s a shame that we believe those silly ideas. And the worst part of it is that this nonsense is coming from within the church.

 

[gracepoole]

That seems to be the case. We are encouraged to hate ourselves and the fact that we are Catholic. It’s a shame that we believe those silly ideas. And the worst part of it is that this nonsense is coming from within the church.

Can you please identify where you’re hearing or reading this sentiment?

 

[LongingSoul]

It surprises me greatly that some traditionalists who after all supposedly value the place of tradition in the fullness of Truth… are the ones who desire the extinction of the Jewish religion. The tradtional Bishops of England and Wales seem much more in tune with true traditionalism as our understanding of it develops.