No one is allowed to amass excessive wealth?

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FLGreg

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I wanted get some thoughts on a statement that I came across while researching the topic of Catholic social justice:

.No one is allowed to amass excessive wealth when others lack the basic necessities of life

I find that quote quite disturbing since I cannot find any corroborating teaching in the Catechism 2419 -2436 or 2443 – 2449 or in POPULORUM PROGRESSIO that the Catholic Charities Office of Social Justice in St. Paul, Minnesota cites as a justification.

I’d love the have someone tell me what I am missing here.

Have a Blessed Day!
 
2445 "Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

‘Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days…You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter…’

2446 St John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: ‘Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess our not ours, but theirs.’ ‘The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity.’ " (Emphasis added)

This all seems to me to be unmistakably clear, and it supports the sentence you were asking about. The emphasized sentence in particular seems to have a direct correlation–it says that the basic necessities of life are something everyone has a right to, and helping a fellow human being have access to these should not be considered an act of voluntary charity, but a duty that the more fortunate have to the less fortunate. In light of this it seems self-explanatory that no one should have a right to have excessive wealth–because justice demands that that excessive money should belong to those who still lack basic necessities.
 
2445 "Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

‘Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days…You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter…’

2446 St John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: ‘Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess our not ours, but theirs.’ ‘The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity.’ " (Emphasis added)

This all seems to me to be unmistakably clear, and it supports the sentence you were asking about. The emphasized sentence in particular seems to have a direct correlation–it says that the basic necessities of life are something everyone has a right to, and helping a fellow human being have access to these should not be considered an act of voluntary charity, but a duty that the more fortunate have to the less fortunate. In light of this it seems self-explanatory that no one should have a right to have excessive wealth–because justice demands that that excessive money should belong to those who still lack basic necessities.
You conclusion is incorrect. Please refer to Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Rerum Novarum, paragraph 5:

“But it is precisely in such power of disposal that ownership obtains, whether the property consist of land or chattels. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner, since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages, and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life.”

Saint John therefore was guiding us in an understanding of Christian charity, not an iron-clad rule regarding social justice. To make the leap from the one to the other is, with all respect, presumptuous, and as Pope Leo XIII alluded to, dangerous as well.
 
To make the leap from the one to the other is, with all respect, presumptuous, and as Pope Leo XIII alluded to, dangerous as well.
Agreed.

Quoting the beginning of Chapter 5 of the Letter of James where the writer denounces the unjust rich only points out the misery that one faces for “oppressing the righteous poor”. It does not justify the absolute nature of the statement from the Minnesota Catholic Charities Office of Social Justice where “[n]o one is allowed…”.

I submit that the world is a better place (especially Africa) because of folks like Bill Gates who have amassed excessive wealth yet use it for the betterment of society.

The statement, in my opinion, runs contrary to 2429 of the Catechism where it states: “Everyone has the right of economic initiative; everyone should make legitimate use of his talents to contribute to the abundance that will benefit all and to harvest the just fruits of his labor”.
 
Money in a way is a morally neutral object, when it is coveted and turned into an idol it most certainly becomes morally bad, but when one uses the money to try to get fewer people to have abortions it most definitely becomes morally good. Like a gun it can be used for both good and evil
 
It looks like I am going to have to retract my praise of Mr. Gates. I was poking around his foundation website and found some disturbing information regarding contraceptives and “family planning”.
 
You conclusion is incorrect. Please refer to Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Rerum Novarum, paragraph 5:

“But it is precisely in such power of disposal that ownership obtains, whether the property consist of land or chattels. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner, since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages, and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life.”
But of course that’s a straw man. We aren’t talking about private property itself, but about excessive wealth.

Your interpretation of St. John Chrysostom is convenient for your ideological purposes but lacks a rational basis. St. John does not suggest that the attitude to wealth he advocates is optional or that charity can somehow be separated from justice. That is a modern heresy.

Edwin
 
But of course that’s a straw man. We aren’t talking about private property itself, but about excessive wealth.
What I think he’s arguing is that “excessive” is a rather a subjective word and history suggests that establishing principles on vague and subjective notions leads to worse tyranny. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

From God’s untainted judgement, I believe it is true that it is wrong to hoard excessive wealth for one’s own personal benefit. The trouble is that God refuses to be elected to government position. He gives us the choice to choose good or evil and live out the consequences.

Using force to make people charitable doesn’t work. The coercive power of the state can be used to coerce people not to commit evil deeds in many cases and to punish them when they do. But government has been a pretty spectacular failure in coercing people to cultivate virtue.

There are also differences in how wealth is gathered. Someone who develops a new vaccine to cure a disease that saves many lives is (IMO) well deserved to be rewarded with wealth. Somebody like George Soros who makes fortunes off the calamities of others is despicable. (also IMO)

But aside from how the wealth is gained, there is virtue to be gained or not in the wise use of that wealth for good or for self indulgence.
 
What I think he’s arguing is that “excessive” is a rather a subjective word and history suggests that establishing principles on vague and subjective notions leads to worse tyranny.
I can’t see that it’s any more intrinsically vague that the principles underlying just war or any other government policy. Of course you have to look at specific circumstances, and of course a straightforward “no one can have more than X amount of wealth” policy is crude and unwise (I don’t think it’s unjust or contrary to Catholic teaching, just not the best way to get the job done).

Nearly everything the Church says about what governments should do (other than “protect innocent life”) is “vague and subjective” in the sense that there’s a general principle that needs to govern the actions of the government, but lots of room for debate on how it should be applied. It seems to me that many “conservative” American Catholics want to use this room for debate as an excuse to rob the principles of all meaning whatsoever.
The trouble is that God refuses to be elected to government position.
But God calls on us to live in this world according to the principles of justice and right reason. And insofar as Christians participate in government at all, these principles should guide their actions.
He gives us the choice to choose good or evil and live out the consequences.
I hear this “free will” argument routinely from both left and right–invariably as an excuse for avoiding a serious discussion of some question of justice. If you followed this principle consistently, there would be no laws at all–or law would be based on purely pragmatic considerations (precisely the position against which the Pope argued so eloquently in his recent speech to the German parliament). I hear it from pro-choice folks as a reason why abortion shouldn’t be against the law. It’s a bogus argument. Law restrains the exercise of free will in the interests of justice and the common good. It doesn’t take away free will.
Using force to make people charitable doesn’t work.
If yo mean “make people have charity in their hearts,” sure. If you mean “make people act in a way that benefits rather than harming the neighbor,” then of course using “force” (i.e., law) to do so can work. Otherwise there would be no point having any laws at all.
The coercive power of the state can be used to coerce people not to commit evil deeds in many cases and to punish them when they do. But government has been a pretty spectacular failure in coercing people to cultivate virtue.
How? Does modern government even try to do this? I don’t think the failure is spectacular at all. I think that of course any success is going to be very limited. But law does have a pedagogical function. If the law says “you should do X,” people will, by and large, come to think that X is good, and vice versa. That’s the main reason to be opposed to gay marriage–it will inevitably shape how people think about marriage. (Of course, the fact that many people push for gay marriage shows that our understanding of marriage is confused in the first place.)

Furthermore, the point of laws taxing the rich to provide for the poor (the main way in which the principle under discussion is applied in our society) isn’t primarily to get the rich to cultivate virtue (in this case, it’s probably true that such laws will not have that effect), but to provide for the needs of the poor, which is one of the basic ethical mandates for society according to Scripture and Christian tradition.

Edwin
 
I don’t fundamentally disagree with much of what you say, Edwin (don’t mistake me for a trickle down guy). But the OP point in question here is whether there is a point of wealth at which more is excessive and immoral. Other posters inevitably brought in politics and I admit I jumped aboard as its a tangent I can rarely resist. (must… refrain from listing … spectacular failures…) We should discuss political policy elsewhere and not further hijack the OP’s thread though.

My point is that it is unwise to attempt to establish a line at which people should not be allowed to accumulate more wealth. It would be especially unwise to attempt to draw such a line in state policy or church teaching.

Jesus didn’t do it. He rebuked those who were obviously owned by their wealth. But at other times, he rebuked those who grumbled about opulence “wasted” that could have been used for the poor. It seems to me that it isn’t the level of wealth amassed that is necessarily evil, but how it is used.
 
I don’t fundamentally disagree with much of what you say, Edwin (don’t mistake me for a trickle down guy). But the OP point in question here is whether there is a point of wealth at which more is excessive and immoral. Other posters inevitably brought in politics and I admit I jumped aboard as its a tangent I can rarely resist. (must… refrain from listing … spectacular failures…) We should discuss political policy elsewhere and not further hijack the OP’s thread though.

My point is that it is unwise to attempt to establish a line at which people should not be allowed to accumulate more wealth. It would be especially unwise to attempt to draw such a line in state policy or church teaching.

Jesus didn’t do it. He rebuked those who were obviously owned by their wealth. But at other times, he rebuked those who grumbled about opulence “wasted” that could have been used for the poor. It seems to me that it isn’t the level of wealth amassed that is necessarily evil, but how it is used.
When the accumulation and holding of wealth harms others, then I believe it is immoral. It is difficult for me to fathom the justification for flying in a private jet, let’s say, while a poor child goes without needed medical care. I don’t pretend to know how to solve that problem, but the inequity of it is appalling.
 
Is it immoral for a pension fund to accumulate excess wealth? (I suppose it wouldn’t be excess unless it was more than needed to continue to pay the promised pensions. But that’s often unpredictable.)

Is it immoral for a college endowment fund to accumulate excess wealth?

Is it immoral for a charitable endowment fund to accumulate excess wealth.

Our diocese, for example, has an endowment fund to support seminarians. It contains a lot of wealth, but still the income from it is only sufficient to support one seminarian at a time.)

Suppose a very wealthy person establishes a charitable endowment fund, and uses the income from it to support the poor. Does the mere existence of that pile of wealth violate social justice? Or is it acceptable because it is used to help the poor?

And suppose that the charitable endowment, instead of being separately incorporated, were wholly owned by an individual but still used for charitable purposes. Immoral?
 
You conclusion is incorrect. Please refer to Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Rerum Novarum, paragraph 5:

“But it is precisely in such power of disposal that ownership obtains, whether the property consist of land or chattels. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner, since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages, and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life.”

Saint John therefore was guiding us in an understanding of Christian charity, not an iron-clad rule regarding social justice. To make the leap from the one to the other is, with all respect, presumptuous, and as Pope Leo XIII alluded to, dangerous as well.
You have truncated Rerum Navarum to fit your right wing doctrine. What the Pope’s call socialism and you call socialism are two different things. The popes do not condemned a welfare state unless that welfare state violates subsidiary.

Not even Sweden and Norweigh violates subsidiary and they are the best example of a welfare state out there but they are NOT SOCIALISM. Only true socialism violates subsidiary because it is the collective ownership of labor AND property. Being a collective ownership of labor eliminates wages and replaces wages with provisions and privilidges from the state.

Clearly this violates freedom because it eliminates personal inovation and the pursuit of happiness through private property. This is what paragraph 5 of RERUM NAVARUM is addressing. But if you were to read the entire document you would see he also condemns a lessez faire capitalism and busting up labor unions. Rerum Navarum is all about just and living wages being the legitimate fruits of work and to withhold such wages whethert it is by Marxism or Capitalism is a grave offence against God, a sin that cries out to heaven for justice.

In Christ,

David
 
Deuteronomy 15:7
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
 
When the accumulation and holding of wealth harms others, then I believe it is immoral. It is difficult for me to fathom the justification for flying in a private jet, let’s say, while a poor child goes without needed medical care. I don’t pretend to know how to solve that problem, but the inequity of it is appalling.
Who do you think built the private jet? Or flies it? Or maintains it? I don’t know either, but I do know that it is not the person who bought it. You can knock private jets, or big yachts, or fancy cars. But the people who built them very much appreciate the buyers.
In the 90’s, a 10% luxury tax was placed on luxury items like a yacht. The result was the yacht builders went out of business, forcing lay offs of thousands of workers.
 
Who do you think built the private jet? Or flies it? Or maintains it? I don’t know either, but I do know that it is not the person who bought it. You can knock private jets, or big yachts, or fancy cars. But the people who built them very much appreciate the buyers.
In the 90’s, a 10% luxury tax was placed on luxury items like a yacht. The result was the yacht builders went out of business, forcing lay offs of thousands of workers.
Well, we build a lot of corporate jets in Kansas. The entire private aircraft industry employs something like 10,000 people. Corporations use private jets to fly people to meetings because it is more cost effective for them than sending everybody on commercial flights. And if you’re paying a manager or CEO, say, 200K/yr, would you want that time you are paying for to be whiffled away in an airport or spent on company business?

Or, you could just shut down the industry and add the 10,000 people to the unemployment lines.
 
When the accumulation and holding of wealth harms others, then I believe it is immoral. It is difficult for me to fathom the justification for flying in a private jet, let’s say, while a poor child goes without needed medical care. I don’t pretend to know how to solve that problem, but the inequity of it is appalling.
But is your line just one of convenience because it doesn’t cut YOU? Why is the private jet immoral, but flying coach for a vacation isn’t? Is it a sin to use air conditioning when poor children are starving? Surely its a luxury that humanity long survived without. Where is that line? Doesn’t it seem a tad convenient that you’ve drawn it beyond the point where you’d have to sacrifice anything?
 
Who do you think built the private jet? Or flies it? Or maintains it? I don’t know either, but I do know that it is not the person who bought it. You can knock private jets, or big yachts, or fancy cars. But the people who built them very much appreciate the buyers.
In the 90’s, a 10% luxury tax was placed on luxury items like a yacht. The result was the yacht builders went out of business, forcing lay offs of thousands of workers.
You are trying to use the aviation industry as a model example for how wealth works for everyone. But no one working in the aviation industry is being deprived a just wage and therefore there is no problem that these executives accumulate weal,th. That is because in the aviation industry the accumulation of wealth is not to the detriment of the working class.

But now let us turn to Wal-mart where the executive class makes well over 1 million dollar a year in salary PLUS a lucrative pension plan, health care and dental care benefits. The average Wal-mart associate makes about 10 dollars an hour. In contrast the average aviation worker makes about 19 dollars an hour while the averaage aviation executive makes about 250K a year. Do you see the difference here? The executives in the Walmart industry make about 2 to 5 times the salary that aviation executives make while the employees of aviation corporations make double that of a walmart associate.

This is where wealth tramples on human dignity and should rightly be condemned. The solution is a constitutional amendment gauranteeing workers the right to collectively bargain for wages and benefits. Let the average Wal-mart Associate collectively bargain to make 15 dollars an hour and receive the same pension and benefit plans the executives receive. Then justice is served and when the contract ends a new one is negotiated. After all this is how it works in the aviation industry.

David
 
David,

I believe workers already have federal rights to organize in ALL states. An employer is subject to big federal fines if they are found to have fired somebody for joining a union, IIRC.

Are you really demanding that all workers be FORCED to join a union (and pay dues, and see that union promote certain politicians, etc). That’s pretty different. Do elaborate.
 
Who do you think built the private jet? Or flies it? Or maintains it? I don’t know either, but I do know that it is not the person who bought it. You can knock private jets, or big yachts, or fancy cars. But the people who built them very much appreciate the buyers.
In the 90’s, a 10% luxury tax was placed on luxury items like a yacht. The result was the yacht builders went out of business, forcing lay offs of thousands of workers.
I have flown many times in private aircraft. I have sat on heated toilet seats. I have lived in multiple homes. It is obscene. The average person has no concept of what I am talking about. It is sinful to live a life that costs $1,000 per minute when others are living without clothing.

Your “let them eat cake”, or reaganesque… if we let them have the crumbs off the table, they will be better off, or whatever your point is about keeping a working class to build jets, does not agree with what I saw once I left the privileges of my family’s wealth.

As for the laborers at Cessna or Gulfstream… there are plenty of other jobs than building multimillion dollar aircraft which guzzle thousands of gallons of fuel per flight.
 
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