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Jerome42
Guest
There is a demonic underpinning going on in the world today. The secular media is a prime example.
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Thekla
Guest
What if 42.3% of Catholics are using the Sacrament of Communion for show. How are we going to find out?No, I think this is about Catholics who use the Sacrament of Communion for show. As for the Church using the Sacraments for discipline, that’s exactly what excommunication does…it bars a person from the sacraments…usually for public, obstinate persistence in grave sin…which can be a source of scandal for their brothers and sisters.
As for excommunication, that bars you from all of the sacraments. I was just asking about when the Church started to use the Sacrament of Communion as a form of discipline? Nobody seems particularily concerned about the other sacraments that “show-Catholics” might be receiving.
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miguel
Guest
We don’t have to find out. Disciplining the obstinate public offenders will at least end the scandal they are giving to the rest.What if 42.3% of Catholics are using the Sacrament of Communion for show. How are we going to find out?
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pnewton
Guest
Communion already is used as discipline. One can not receive communion if one is in an irregular marriage.
So adultery bars communion but participating in the murder of millions of innocents does not. Nice pastoral style. I am sure King Herod would be proud.
So adultery bars communion but participating in the murder of millions of innocents does not. Nice pastoral style. I am sure King Herod would be proud.
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bones_IV
Guest
Satan has officially hijacked the media.There is a demonic underpinning going on in the world today. The secular media is a prime example.
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Kielbasi
Guest
I think Bishop Wuerl is being true to his self, acting the same as he did in Pittsburgh. Any number of liberal, pro-abortion politicians here were never disciplined, including the Kerrys who have a place in the Pittsburgh suburb of Fox Chapel.What do you think?
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=74933
I’m not suprised at all.
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Thekla
Guest
Everything that you talk about involves self-discipline. We are the ones who know if we carry sin with us and we are the ones to know the state of our marriages. I’ve never seen anyone bounced by the priest for trying to take communion when they are not supposed to.Communion already is used as discipline. One can not receive communion if one is in an irregular marriage.
So adultery bars communion but participating in the murder of millions of innocents does not. Nice pastoral style. I am sure King Herod would be proud.
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Thekla
Guest
By the rest, do you mean the Catholics that agree with you? Because I don’t feel the scandal that you feel. So you want them disciplined for your sake?We don’t have to find out. Disciplining the obstinate public offenders will at least end the scandal they are giving to the rest.
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urban-hermit
Guest
I think it is a matter of it already being public knowledge in her case.What if 42.3% of Catholics are using the Sacrament of Communion for show. How are we going to find out?
But I don’t think it’s any different at a more local level either. If I were doing something that was objectively a mortal sin, and it was public knowledge and the priest at my parish knew it, well, that priest (as I understand it) should deny me communion for my own good as well as the good of others, so that I do not commit a sacrilege myself or lead others into the same sin by giving them the impression that what I am doing is ok.
I mean, if my actions are public knowledge, and I continue to profess communion with Christ’s Church, and I regularly unite myself to Him in the public act of receiving Him in Holy Communion, then either: (1) my actions are not gravely sinful, or (2) the Church is permitting me to engage in a sort of public fakery.
Which is it?
I would like more information about why this is happening. I don’t think Nancy Pelosi can say it’s just between her and God, or her and the bishop - the cat’s been out of the bag for a while already. It is all of our business because the whole Church is affected by her actions.
We look to our shepherds for leadership and genuine unity, but Bishop Wuerl’s handling of this situation … well, I want to acknowledge he has a tough job and I don’t want to be disrespectful, but I feel we deserve an explanation of this serious matter.
Has the explanation already been given and I just haven’t found it? Is there some protocol for going about getting an explanation? Would it be a sin to stand outside the archbishop’s cathedral with a giant sign that read
"IS IT OK TO RECEIVE COMMUNION IF I FACILITATE ABORTIONS?"
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Jerome42
Guest
This is not a matter of vengence. Those of us who believe in the Word and all that we may attain only wish that that Our Lord’s message can be spread to all of those we love. Conversely, our love for the sinners does not want to see them suffer eternal damnation.By the rest, do you mean the Catholics that agree with you? Because I don’t feel the scandal that you feel. So you want them disciplined for your sake?
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miguel
Guest
The point of it is medicinal. I think they (pro-choice Catholic politicians) should be disciplined for their own sake (i.e., their eternal salvation) and for the sake of their scandalized brothers and sisters who erroneously believe the pro-choice position is acceptable and compatible with the Catholic faith. The shepherds bear some responsibility for this sorry state due to their inaction. They have the authority and responsibility to clear up these sorts of misunderstandings. Souls are at stake including their own.By the rest, do you mean the Catholics that agree with you? Because I don’t feel the scandal that you feel. So you want them disciplined for your sake?
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mary_bobo
Guest
And that’s the problem. The bad name that these politicians give to the Church cannot be measured. Our pastor said that Jackie Kennedy, for example, was ex-communicated because of the effect on the Church when she married Ari. Perhaps he is wrong?Everything that you talk about involves self-discipline. We are the ones who know if we carry sin with us and we are the ones to know the state of our marriages. I’ve never seen anyone bounced by the priest for trying to take communion when they are not supposed to.
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Jerome42
Guest
I am so sorry to say that even our clergy have been infiltrated by evil spirits. One only has to recall the child abuse scandal, complicity on the parts of many Bishops, the timidity of the Bishops when it comes to confronting sinful politicians, total preoccupation with parish donations, diocesan quotas, etc.The point of it is medicinal. I think they (pro-choice Catholic politicians) should be disciplined for their own sake (i.e., their eternal salvation) and for the sake of their scandalized brothers and sisters who erroneously believe the pro-choice position is acceptable and compatible with the Catholic faith. The shepherds bear some responsibility for this sorry state due to their inaction. They have the authority and responsibility to clear up these sorts of misunderstandings. Souls are at stake including their own.
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system
Guest
By saying you KNOW exactly who, where, and when someone is using a sacrament "for show", you are saying you know what is within a person’s heart.No, I think this is about Catholics who use the Sacrament of Communion for show. As for the Church using the Sacraments for discipline, that’s exactly what excommunication does…it bars a person from the sacraments…usually for public, obstinate persistence in grave sin…which can be a source of scandal for their brothers and sisters.
I think that sort of statement is out of bounds here on CAF, since only God knows what is within a person’s heart.
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miguel
Guest
Pardon my hyperbole. A person’s voting record in Congress is public knowledge. Receiving Our Lord in Communion is a public statement of unity with him and his Church. The claim of unity is a lie if one is pro-choice. It is a private lie if no one knows how you vote. It is a public lie, and a source of scandal, if you vote pro-choice in Congress.By saying you KNOW exactly who, where, and when someone is using a sacrament "for show", you are saying you know what is within a person’s heart.
I think that sort of statement is out of bounds here on CAF, since only God knows what is within a person’s heart.
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Richardols
Guest
"When he took questions, a woman asked how be would respond to Catholic politicians who support legal abortion.Newsspeak for “only hardcase nutjobs would find the bishop’s stand objectionable.”
His response was “teach.”
“That is what Jesus did,” he said. “Did everyone accept that teaching? No. … But he didn’t stop teaching. We are in this for the long haul.”
He noted that he sometimes gets letters from Catholics demanding to know what he will do about such situations. His temptation, he said, was to reply with, “What are YOU doing about it? How is your voice heard?”
Well spoke, Your Excellency! Well Spoken!
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Ecce_homo_1
Guest
Zero backbone…
Not surprising, our Bishops have turned into stooges rather than the great Bishops of Christendom, it’s an embarassment.
Not surprising, our Bishops have turned into stooges rather than the great Bishops of Christendom, it’s an embarassment.
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Richardols
Guest
Every last one of them, judging by your generalization.Zero backbone…
Not surprising, our Bishops have turned into stooges
It might be interesting to some here to read what Walt Oliver said on another thread about the Archbishop:
The rules of CAF require that all people be treated with charity and respect and that we do not speculate as to their motives or try to read their hearts. This includes both politicians and church hierarchy.
Why do lay Catholics think that they can so uncharitably pass judgment on our bishops? I think that re-reading the Scriptures about casting the first stone might be in order before being judgmental.
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Ecce_homo_1
Guest
I’m not reading anyones heart, I’m calling a spade a spade. Allowing a known abortion proponent to receive the Lord in Holy Communion shows zero backbone, and usurping your position you’ve been Graced with as a Bishop:Every last one of them, judging by your generalization.
It might be interesting to some here to read what Walt Oliver said on another thread about the Archbishop:
The rules of CAF require that all people be treated with charity and respect and that we do not speculate as to their motives or try to read their hearts. This includes both politicians and church hierarchy.
Why do lay Catholics think that they can so uncharitably pass judgment on our bishops? I think that re-reading the Scriptures about casting the first stone might be in order before being judgmental.
**“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”
-Pope St. Felix III**
I’ll go with Pope St. Felix III and the history of our great Church on this one. Bishops are held to a higher standard and not above criticism, especially when in my opinion they are clearly not confronting a grave evil because the person/people in question are powerful politically. Great Saints of the past have been martyred to not allow the Blessed Sacrament to be defiled. Yet our Bishops are incapable of pulling Nancy Pelosi aside and explain she can’t receive because of ehr stance on abortion? Mother Theresa said the thing that made her the saddest was people blaspheming the Blessed Sacrament, this from a future Saint who saw the most heinous forms of human suffering.
I think St. Basil the Great would’ve thrown Nancy Pelosi out on her ear until she had a change of heart.
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b_justb
Guest
Very interesting thread. Clearly, we have a couple of schools of thought going on in here. I think each idea is backed up by the individuals concern on the abortion issue. The faux righteous indignation that springs up about people questioning the bishop and his actions, or the lack thereof in this case, is pretty comical. It’s just more smoke and mirrors to hide ones ideas on the abortion issue.
Just because one doesn’t feel the scandal another feels does not mean that the scandal is any less prevalent.
Just because I am extremely mortified at a public figure that is clearly a pro-abortionist who is receiving the Eucharist does not mean I get to smash the bishop with a verbal hammer.
It might be that a middle ground should be explored? Maybe it’s a combination of teaching and enforcing the Church’s discipline. Maybe the Catholic Church is not in fact united and the claim She lay bare as The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is in question (Scandal? Indeed.).
The more I read on this forum the more I question where I rest my hat every Sunday.
Just because one doesn’t feel the scandal another feels does not mean that the scandal is any less prevalent.
Just because I am extremely mortified at a public figure that is clearly a pro-abortionist who is receiving the Eucharist does not mean I get to smash the bishop with a verbal hammer.
It might be that a middle ground should be explored? Maybe it’s a combination of teaching and enforcing the Church’s discipline. Maybe the Catholic Church is not in fact united and the claim She lay bare as The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is in question (Scandal? Indeed.).
The more I read on this forum the more I question where I rest my hat every Sunday.
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