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No Problem with Civil Unions for Catholic Church: English Bishop
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Walter_Casler
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I would truly hope that everyone would listen to God’s teachings on this moral matter and not the false teachings of a truly misguided man. Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide him back to Christ and to the TRUE teachings of the Catholic Chruch.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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People always seem to believe they can rewrite God’s laws to suit their own whims.
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crazzeto
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This is one that I used to really struggle with, and I’m certanily not one to rejoice in denying civil liberties to anyone… But after actually seeing gay people interact with eachother candidly and interacting with them on online forums I can to see that truely, there is nothing beautiful about the “gay culture”. Truely, it’s depraved, and we can not simply sit by and say “there’s nothing wrong with being totally depraved, that doesn’t affect me”. It most certainly does affect us.
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KC91
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Sure there are a few dissident priests but until now I had never thought that a Bishop would be so openly defiant of some of the most important Church teachings
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Rich_Olszewski
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The bishop was speaking of civil partnerships, not marriage. I think that “Render unto Caesar” holds here. If the state wants to give legal status to such parnerships, it doesn’t affect the status of marriage as a religious bond.
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KC91
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Yes but it is a potential threat to marriage as it is a stepping stone towards gay marriage being legalised.
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manualman
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I think the bishop’s opinion on civil unions is within the bounds of defensible catholic opinions. He isn’t endorsing the behavior or suggesting that the state endorse it. He is simply addressing the fact England is not a theocracy. The state does not legislate sexual morality anymore. The state DOES need to legislate morality in as far as it extends to the protection of human rights, but allowing a homosexual couple to have what amounts to a glorified power of attorney over each other’s matters is not a threat to anyone’s human rights (unlike, say, abortion). This is also why we don’t seek to make contraceptives illegal.
But I am dismayed at his statement about such people working at catholic institutions, especially schools. That seems to reveal that he doesn’t even understand the primary purpose of a catholic school. Sad. Catholic schools are only worth the expense and effort when they provide a critical mass of faithful believers that establishes a faith community that not only educates young people to the faith, it inspires and evangelizes them. Introducing notorious and unrepentant sinners (as opposed to acknowledged and repentant sinners) into such a place is total poison to that mission. Might as well close those schools today.
But I am dismayed at his statement about such people working at catholic institutions, especially schools. That seems to reveal that he doesn’t even understand the primary purpose of a catholic school. Sad. Catholic schools are only worth the expense and effort when they provide a critical mass of faithful believers that establishes a faith community that not only educates young people to the faith, it inspires and evangelizes them. Introducing notorious and unrepentant sinners (as opposed to acknowledged and repentant sinners) into such a place is total poison to that mission. Might as well close those schools today.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Yes, it can be, just as heterosexuals, both single and married, can be depraved. But, there are also the homosexuals who don’t bother anyone, don’t carry on in public, and live quiet lives. There’s a restaurant here in Little Rock that is owned and operated by two middle-aged lesbians. They don’t publicize their status and I’d have no problem if they moved in next door to me. There’s also a fellow at work who is “gay.” He once brought his companion to a company picnic. You’d never know it; few of them are “flaming.”
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canadianguy1143
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Of course he was speaking about civil partnerships, that is why its called **civil **unions and in case you didn’t realize, civil unions are not something that a Catholic can endorse.
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Rich_Olszewski
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I know what a “civil union” is. I see no reason not to recognize such. A civil union is a creature of the State, the same way a corporation can be “incarnated” as a legal “person” - because it is a creature of the State. As such, it need not impinge on marriage. It gives such people legal rights vis-a-vis their partner, which is a good thing.
When I hear someone say, “Well, they can contract to provide the same rights to one another,” I agree, but say that it can just as well be tied up in one “transaction” to be called a “civil union.”
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cathgal
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Who made him bishop !?
It does not help the Church that the bishop agrees to civil union. All it does is causes more confusion for the laity. Either homosexuality is wrong or it isn’t, under every circumstances.
He can say something like, ‘I and the Church do not agree nor encourage civil union but if the state wants to legalize it, that’s their business. We have no control over it. All the Church can do is to teach the truth of the matter and especially practice it in our OWN institutions’
Man I wish I’m a bishopess!
It does not help the Church that the bishop agrees to civil union. All it does is causes more confusion for the laity. Either homosexuality is wrong or it isn’t, under every circumstances.
He can say something like, ‘I and the Church do not agree nor encourage civil union but if the state wants to legalize it, that’s their business. We have no control over it. All the Church can do is to teach the truth of the matter and especially practice it in our OWN institutions’
Man I wish I’m a bishopess!
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wisdomseeker
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just because the state makes these unions legal, it doesnt mean the CC has to accept as such. the CC is supposed to stand against sin and not accept it.
since the state doesnt recognize God’s law, why is it that the CC must recognize what the state is doing?
these people live in sin and has no business with the CC. and just how is the CC to speak up against this evil, when the Church is accepting all their agenda?
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mdgspencer
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The people who have been posting here perhaps aren’t aware that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that under no circumcstances should homosexual acts be accepted. (In fact it also says homosexual acts are acts of “grave depravity”(section 2357)
These may seem strong statements, however in fact they are the teaching of the Catholic Church.
There has been a similar dissenting bishop in the United States, Bishop Gumbleton. In fact I once saw a photo of him wearing a miter with a gay symbol on the front. However, the liberal brand of 1960s styles clerics have been aging and dying out, and actually are men of the past.
These may seem strong statements, however in fact they are the teaching of the Catholic Church.
There has been a similar dissenting bishop in the United States, Bishop Gumbleton. In fact I once saw a photo of him wearing a miter with a gay symbol on the front. However, the liberal brand of 1960s styles clerics have been aging and dying out, and actually are men of the past.
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JimG
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Civil unions are simply gay marriage under a different name. Heterosexuals have been fired from working in Catholic schools for cohabiting, thus providing improper example to children. When then would the bishop want gay couples working in Catholic schools?
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Jon_S
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From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:
"4. There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)
“In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
"4. There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)
“In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
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Rich_Olszewski
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- No, civil unions are not marriages. Those who want to allow such unions don’t necessarily promote marriage for homosexual couples.
- How would the children know about it unless that couple flaunted their cohabitation? They made waves, they were looking to be fired.
- You can’t tell looking at, for example, me if I’m homo- or heterosexual unless I advertise it. Nor would you know other people’s sexual orientation unless they were blatant about it.
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Rich_Olszewski
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True enough. The Church is against divorce even though the State recognizes it. The Church is against artificial birth control even though the State allows it. The Church opposes heterosexual couples living together before marriage even though the State says nothing about it…
Not everyone in the U.S.A. is a Catholic and the State is not doing things with only the Catholics in mind. That’s why.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Nor should heterosexual fornication be accepted. The Church doesn’t have to bless those homosexual unions in any way. Let those couples do their business at City Hall at the Registrar’s Office.
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JReducation
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There are two serious problems here.
Br. JR, OSF
- The bishop may be expressing his opinion, but as bishop his opinion carries a great deal of weight in his diocese and there is the risk that it can be interpreted as “The Catholic Position.”
- I’m not sure, but I believe that Catholic schools and other private schools in the UK are not as we know them in the USA. If I’m not mistaken, they are funded by the state. If that’s the case, then there can be a problem with the school system. I don’t know if they use a voucher system or if every school is state subsidized. I went to school in Italy where all schools, private and public, are under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education. You cannot open or close them without their permission. There are many countries in Europe and elsewhere with this setup. When I was a missionary in South America, we could not grant diplomas or degrees. Private and public schools were dependent on the Ministry of Education to grant the degree or diploma. Therefore, you had to follow their rules. You could not threaten to close them. They simply handed them over to a lay administration and continued running them as Catholic schools. The point is, if this is the same system in the UK, they have to do some fancy legal work to restrict the employment and licensing of gay teachers.
Br. JR, OSF
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