No Purgatory For You!

[cheeto1]

I was reading the thread on saints in purgatory compared to the average faithful and
I thought of this:

1Thessalonians 4:16 –
No, the Lord Himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s vice and God’s trumpet; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.
(18) Console one another with this message.

This is my question: for those alive at the coming of Christ, the ones being caught
up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is there a purgatory for them?

I hear a lot of people say they plan on going to purgatory when they die. But what
happens if they take too long to die, the Lord comes back, and only the living who
are already perfected can meet Him?

 

[Nita]

I was reading the thread on saints in purgatory compared to the average faithful and
I thought of this:

1Thessalonians 4:16 –
No, the Lord Himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s vice and God’s trumpet; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.
(18) Console one another with this message.

This is my question: for those alive at the coming of Christ, the ones being caught
up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is there a purgatory for them?

Well, if a day can be as a thousand years (cf 2 Peter 3:8), I wonder how much a split second could turn out to be?

 

[CWBetts]

I was reading the thread on saints in purgatory compared to the average faithful and
I thought of this:

1Thessalonians 4:16 –
No, the Lord Himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s vice and God’s trumpet; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.
(18) Console one another with this message.

This is my question: for those alive at the coming of Christ, the ones being caught
up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is there a purgatory for them?

I hear a lot of people say they plan on going to purgatory when they die. But what
happens if they take too long to die, the Lord comes back, and only the living who
are already perfected can meet Him?

Also remeber that there is no time in heaven. God exists outside of time meanoing that every event in human history is happening simultaneously. In those terms, Christ’s secon coming is not a “Get Out Of Purgatory Free Card”

 

[NotWorthy]

I understand that when Christ comes, Purgatory will be disbanded (for lack of a better word). Those who are lifted up will skip Purgatory and those in Purgatory will be released.

 

[Beachcomber]

I always thought that the passage meant that those who are living are caught up with Christ and everything gets sorted out later; by that, I mean, who goes to purgatory or wherever. There are people who say that the Rapture (which this refers to) separates the believers from the non-believers, who will be left behind. That makes me think that Jesus will sort everyone out afterwards.

There was a great thread about the Rapture, so I’m not going there with this.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

One theory is that Jesus will come in a time of intense persecution. Those who are caught up will have had their Purgatory on earth.

 

[Halos1n2Horns]

Yes i believe in purgatory, and i believe we all enter until judgement day. I was also informed that purgatory can be on earth, Its here we purify our souls for heaven, and its on earth we pray hard for those in purgatory, and our own selfs as in one day being in heaven.

My Opinion

Halos

 

[Fidelis]

From Fr. Paul Duffner over at the Rosary Confraternity:
rosary-center.org/ntrll.htm

**The destruction of the world by fire **

*“The present heavens and earth are reserved by God’s word for fire; they are kept for the day of judgment, the day when godless men will be destroyed. . . .The day of the Lord will come like a thief, and on that day the heavens will vanish with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and all its deeds will be made manifest. . . .The heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt away in the blaze. What we await are new heavens and a new earth where, according to his promise, the justice of God will reside.” *(2 Pet. 3:7-13)

As regards those who are still living when the world comes to an end, the more common opinion is that they will die in that final conflagration. The Catechism of the Council of Trent speaks of that as follows:

"When we say all (die) we mean those who will have died before the day of judgment, as well as those who will then die. That the Church acquiesces in the opinion that all, without distinction, shall die, and that this opinion is more consonant with truth, is the teaching of St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Nor does St. Paul in his epistle to the Thessalonians depart from this doctrine when he says:

*‘Those who have died in Christ will rise first. Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.’ *(3:16,17)

“St. Ambrose explaining these words says: ‘In that very being caught up death shall take place, as it were, in a deep sleep, and the soul, having gone forth from the body, shall instantly return. For those who are alive shall die when they are taken up that, coming to the Lord, they may receive their souls from His presence; because in His presence they cannot be dead.’ This opinion is supported by the authority of St. Augustine in his book THE CITY OF GOD.” (St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that those alive at the world’s end will die in that conflagration. - Suppl. 74, 7, ad 3)

There are some Scripture scholars who hold that those living at the end of the world will be taken up to Christ without undergoing death. However, it is difficult to reconcile that opinion with the fact that the punishment of original sin imposes the obligation of undergoing death on every member of the human race with the exception of Christ and His Mother, both of whom voluntarily accepted death for the redemption of mankind. (CCC 1008, 1018) “If we die in Christ’s grace, physical death completes this dying with Christ (begun in Baptism) and so completes our incorporation into Him in His redeeming act.” (CCC 1010)

rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm

 

[cheeto1]

"'In that very being caught up death shall take place, as it were, in a deep sleep, and the soul, having gone forth from the body, shall instantly return. For those who are alive shall die when they are taken up that, coming to the Lord, they may receive their souls from His presence; "

Fidelis, are you saying that those who are alive at His coming, and meet Him in the
air, that it is their dead bodies that meet Him in the air, and then receive life again?

 

[Fidelis]

"'In that very being caught up death shall take place, as it were, in a deep sleep, and the soul, having gone forth from the body, shall instantly return. For those who are alive shall die when they are taken up that, coming to the Lord, they may receive their souls from His presence; "

Fidelis, are you saying that those who are alive at His coming, and meet Him in the
air, that it is their dead bodies that meet Him in the air, and then receive life again?

Not me, but St. Ambrose as quoted by Fr. Duffner.

But, yes, that is what I understand St. Ambrose to be saying. Since the people alive at the Second Coming are the exception to the rule that applies to all other persons who have ever lived previously, this sounds as good an explanation as any.

 

[cheeto1]

Well it sounds very creepy to me. But who can argue with a saint?
Some of you mentioned the idea of a “get out of purgatory free card”, or that
purgatory may be like a split second since there is no time. That there is no
time is something I have never been able to imagine. Because first something
happens, and then something else happens, and they didn’t happen at the same
time. First, Adam and Eve ate the apple, then Jesus came to earth. First He was
born, then He died. (then He rose). Even without a clock or calendar, He didn’t
rise from the dead and then die. I was afraid that purgatory wasn’t a luxury provided
to those who were alive at the time Jesus comes for the faithful. But it seems like
no one else is worried about this…

 

[Nita]

Well it sounds very creepy to me. But who can argue with a saint?
Some of you mentioned the idea of a “get out of purgatory free card”, or that
purgatory may be like a split second since there is no time. That there is no
time is something I have never been able to imagine. Because first something
happens, and then something else happens, and they didn’t happen at the same
time. First, Adam and Eve ate the apple, then Jesus came to earth. First He was
born, then He died. (then He rose). Even without a clock or calendar, He didn’t
rise from the dead and then die. I was afraid that purgatory wasn’t a luxury provided
to those who were alive at the time Jesus comes for the faithful. But it seems like
no one else is worried about this…

Earthly “time” is a mysterious thing (among many other mysterious earthly things )
Contemplate the whole concept of “now”/“this instant”. By the time it registers in your brain it is gone!!!

In a sense the only important, all critical moment is the “now” - what we do in a “present” moment. Yet, the only thing we can “think about” (in the way mentioned above) is the past or the future. I find it a delightful enigma; sleep being another delightful enigma.

 

[jean8]

I was reading the thread on saints in purgatory compared to the average faithful and
I thought of this:

1Thessalonians 4:16 –
No, the Lord Himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s vice and God’s trumpet; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.
(18) Console one another with this message.

This is my question: for those alive at the coming of Christ, the ones being caught
up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is there a purgatory for them?

I hear a lot of people say they plan on going to purgatory when they die. But what
happens if they take too long to die, the Lord comes back, and only the living who
are already perfected can meet Him?

Believers will be with Christ. Jesus will come back for his church once. All eyes will see him.
I believe when a person dies he is immediately in the presence of the Lord. That person either stays with the Lord or is sent to hell. At the end times, The Lord will judge everyone.
1Thess.4:13-18 5:1-2
Rev.14;13,Rev.5, the Scroll and the Lamb.Rev.3;21-22
My late husband’s favorite scripture was Rev.3:19-20 He opened the door to his Savior.

God bless you,
jean

See Rev.21:27 The Lamb’s Book of Life

 

[alacoque]

I was reading the thread on saints in purgatory compared to the average faithful and
I thought of this:

1Thessalonians 4:16 –
No, the Lord Himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s vice and God’s trumpet; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.
(18) Console one another with this message.

This is my question: for those alive at the coming of Christ, the ones being caught
up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is there a purgatory for them?

I hear a lot of people say they plan on going to purgatory when they die. But what
happens if they take too long to die, the Lord comes back, and only the living who
are already perfected can meet Him?

The point/purpose of Purgatory is ‘purgation’, or purification. Purgatory exists as an expression of the mercy of God, while also serving His justice. We are purified and made perfect in Purgatory, since nothing with the least stain or imperfection can enter into the presence of God. With rare exceptions, no one dies in a state of perfect goodness (immediately ready for Heaven and the Beatific Vision) and no one dies in a state of perfect evil, beyond all hope of purification due to their own free will / choices.

So, we see that the reason for Purgatory is our own purification, from the remaining temporal affects of personal sin in our lives. Regarding your question/issue, I think it is completely safe to say that since the purpose of Purgatory is our final purification into perfect holiness, the Lord will do that (on the last day) in some way of His design, if Purgatory is no longer an option for whatever reason.

The fact is we don’t know, for sure, the answer to your inquiry - but suffice it to say that we will be purified prior to our enjoying the Beatific Vision - whether the mode for that purification is Purgatory or some other means designed by God. Our final purification MUST happen; HOW it happens is ultimately up to God.

Peace!

 

[NeedImprovement]

One theory is that Jesus will come in a time of intense persecution. Those who are caught up will have had their Purgatory on earth.

It was recorded in his biography that Blessed Brother André Bessette - founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal, had said there **are **some souls who do their Purgatory here on earth.

Another implication in the scenario in the OP’s question would be that all those currently in Purgatory would have completed their purification at that moment. Although Purgatory is defined as temporal punishment due to sin, we need to be cautious not to allow our entire view of things eternal to be expressed in terms of time alone.

Regarding suffering, it is not only time-related, there are also many different intensities of suffering. ( I can feel my brain starting to “go” Nita ) As Beachcomber said, God will sort all that out.

 

[LiamUK]

temporal punishment due to sin,.

Is this statement found in the catechism? This is what the catechism says about purgatory;

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]

According to the catechism purgatory is a purification and not a punishment.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Is this statement found in the catechism? This is what the catechism says about purgatory;

…
According to the catechism purgatory is a purification and not a punishment.

Hi LiamUK

I’m not sure, but my guess would be you’re hoping we can avoid depicting God as this big mean Guy waiting to beat us with a stick the first time we do something wrong. I don’t like that image either…doesn’t say anything about Mercy.

However, you will find those exact words - temporal punishment due to sin, in the Catechism. They are used to help describe the double consequence of sin and indulgences. Have a look at CCC # 1471

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM .

There are different ways of referring to these things, purification, chastisement … etc…what they all have in common is suffering. We refer to the holy souls in Purgatory as the Church Suffering. Here is how our Blessed Lord referred to them when speaking to St. Faustina - from the Day 8 meditation on the Novena to the Divine Mercy:

Eighth Day
“Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory,
and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”

St. Faustina had several visions of Purgatory (actually, according to her words, she visited Purgatory). On one such visit we find the notions of suffering and purification perfectly reconciled together, since the holy souls told St. Faustina that **their greatest torment was their “longing for God.” **:

Diary No. 20
(Vision of Purgatory)
“One day I asked the Lord, ‘Lord, who else should I pray for?’ Jesus said that on the following night He would let me know for whom I should always pray for.
The following night, I saw my Guardian Angel who asked me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her ‘The Star of the Sea.’ She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of the prison of suffering. * which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.”*

pwhs-mfi.org/newsletter/news13/st_faustina.htm

Mercy does not deny or negate justice, it presupposes justice.

I always hope that each thread we start on Purgatory will help us become better acquainted with it and spur us on to pray for those dear souls detained there.

God bless.

 

[Rustyxcv]

When we are no longer confined by the restraints of space and time, as we know them in this life, we are freed to approach God. I suspect, though I have no proof, that it is the fire of God’s love and truth that “burns” away the residue of sin that clings to us (of sin that WE have done, of sin that was done TO us, and of sin that simply is an inescapable part of this fallen world). It seems to me, that those who are “caught up in the air” at Christ’s Second Coming will experience that process as they rise. Even those “in purgatory” now are aware that their goal is to enter the intimate blessed presence of Our Lord. The pains they suffer are as nothing compared to their hope and joy. Yet we will continue to pray for them and offer up our own sufferings to speed them along. – Rusty
PS-- It is bad catechesis and misinformed popular piety that thinks of purgatory as a “little hell” – it is anything but! It is the vestibule, the antechamber, the “Welcome” mat to PARADISE!!! It is that small lobby where you sit looking through the frosted glass at the feasting diners, knowing that any minute now the Maitre’D will step out and say, “Your table is ready.”

 

[NeedImprovement]

The Treatise of St. Catherine of Genoa on Purgatory is quite an interesting read. It can be viewed here:

marys-touch.com/Saints/purgatory.htm

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I like C. S. Lewis’s description of Purgatory. Imagine that you arrive at a country estate for a party weekend in the midst of a driving rain. Won’t you want few minutes to clean yourself up and get dry clothes before joining the rest of the guests?

My other thought is to regard it as “new car dealer prep”.