No Purgatory For You!

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Joe_Kelley said:
I like C. S. Lewis’s description of Purgatory. Imagine that you arrive at a country estate for a party weekend in the midst of a driving rain. Won’t you want few minutes to clean yourself up and get dry clothes before joining the rest of the guests?

My other thought is to regard it as “new car dealer prep”.
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Mother Angelica said “Imagine you have a new suit, and when you are out in your suit, you fall in the mud. You show your mother, and she forgives you. But the suit still needs cleaned.”
 
Hello All,

Where in the Bible can I learn more about Purgatory?
 
ServantofChrist said:
Hello All,

Where in the Bible can I learn more about Purgatory?
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1st Maccabees where Judas Maccabees takes up a collection and sends it to the Temple to offer up prayers for his soldiers who had the pagan amulets.

Also, in St. Paul’s writings, I believe its 1 or 2 Corinthians, where our works our burnt up and revealed to be either straw or gold. If straw, then we suffer loss, as though by fire. (lots of paraphrasing going on, here, mind you).

Jesus also writes of the parable where the servant is thrown in prison until he has paid the last penny.

I’m sorry, but as you can probably tell, I’m pressed for time. If you need the Scriptural references for what I posted, I can provide them later.
 
CWBetts said:
Purgatory is never explicitly mentioned in the Scriptures, but there are several passages that refer to some kind of purification
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Thank you…do you have any of those “purification” references available? Appreciate your help. 🙂
 
ServantofChrist said:
Thank you…do you have any of those “purification” references available? Appreciate your help. 🙂
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Rev 21:27 (Shows why Purgatory is necessary)
1 Cor 3:15
Heb 12:14
2 Sam 12:13-14 (Punishment after forgiveness)
Heb 12:22-23 (speaks of saints being “made perfect”)
Mt. 5:18-30
Lk. 12:58-59
Rev. 7:13-14
1 Jn. 5:16-17 (What happens when we die in sin that isn’t deadly?)
Mk, 9:49
1 Pet 3:19
Eph 4:8-9
Mt. 12:32
2 Mac 12:42-46

Thought not all of these verses are about the purifiaction itself, they do lend to a belief that there is some form of purification for those who did not achieve saintly holiness in this life.
 
CWBetts said:
Rev 21:27 (Shows why Purgatory is necessary)
1 Cor 3:15
Heb 12:14
2 Sam 12:13-14 (Punishment after forgiveness)
Heb 12:22-23 (speaks of saints being “made perfect”)
Mt. 5:18-30
Lk. 12:58-59
Rev. 7:13-14
1 Jn. 5:16-17 (What happens when we die in sin that isn’t deadly?)
Mk, 9:49
1 Pet 3:19
Eph 4:8-9
Mt. 12:32
2 Mac 12:42-46

Thought not all of these verses are about the purifiaction itself, they do lend to a belief that there is some form of purification for those who did not achieve saintly holiness in this life.
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I read when Jesus was on the cross, one of the men next to Him said “…remember me when You go into Your Kingdom…” and Jesus replied “Today, you will be with me in Paradise”…this seems to say he went straight to Heaven…?
 
ServantofChrist said:
I read when Jesus was on the cross, one of the men next to Him said “…remember me when You go into Your Kingdom…” and Jesus replied “Today, you will be with me in Paradise”…this seems to say he went straight to Heaven…?
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Jesus did not say “Today you will be with me in Heaven” or 'Today you will see the Father" He said Paradise, or the realm of the dead that were not damned before the opening of Heaven. At other times referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom” The truth is, Hevan wasn’t open to anyone until after the resurrection, therefore this verse does nothing to indicate theat there is no purgatory.
 
Although 2 Mac 12: 42-46 is probably my favorite passage concerning Purgatory, I was amazed how many times I’d read Matt 12:32 without ever making the link. I imagine since its tone was so serious - considering blasphemy against the Holy Spirit…the ‘unforgiveable sin’, that I was too preoccupied to spot the subtlety that St. Augustine and St. Gregory did:

Matt 12:32

32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

32" ‘Nor in the world to come’… From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. 21, c. 13) and St. Gregory (Dialog., 4, c. 39) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and, consequently, that there is a purgatory or a middle place."
 
LiamUK said:
Is this statement found in the catechism? This is what the catechism says about purgatory;

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends alms giving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]

According to the catechism purgatory is a purification and not a punishment.
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Yes, Purgatory is a purification; a punishment only in that you could see it that way since it’s a deprivation of the presence of God. You will find information on ‘temporal punishment’ in the following paragraphs from the Catechism - under “Indulgences” - that’s where it appears. See the following paragraphs. (btw, temporal punishment refers to the consequences in the temporal realm (this life - here and now) that results from and attaches to our sin and is a very real thing. This is as opposed to the ‘supernatural punishment’, which is forgiven in the Sacrament of Reconciliation / Confession).

*X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84*

🙂
 
Fidelis said:
From Fr. Paul Duffner over at the Rosary Confraternity:
rosary-center.org/ntrll.htm
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There is no proof that Mother Mary actually died–separation of soul from the body. And, there is no evidence that she resurrected before she was assumed to heaven. What was plausible is that she was assumed to heaven after completing her earthly life marked by a deep slumber.

About purgatory…it is just a transition in which a person saved by Xt from getting eternally damned undergoes purification from “impurities”–venial sins–to make him/her fit in the presence of God. How long it takes, we don’t know and we don’t have to know. How will it fit with the coming of Xt for those still living, i don’t know. We can speculate…purification will be instant…like “instantaneous combustion process.” The intensity will be commensurate to the seriousness of the venial sins and those forgiven mortal sins.

What is important, i think, is our disposition to the necessity of preparing well for the second life by practicing charity always in every circumstance with every people. The key to enable us practice charity is detachment from selfishness, from materialism…and attaching ourselves to the the will of God.
 
cheeto1 said:
Well it sounds very creepy to me. But who can argue with a saint?
Some of you mentioned the idea of a “get out of purgatory free card”, or that
purgatory may be like a split second since there is no time. That there is no
time is something I have never been able to imagine. Because first something
happens, and then something else happens, and they didn’t happen at the same
time. First, Adam and Eve ate the apple, then Jesus came to earth. First He was
born, then He died. (then He rose). Even without a clock or calendar, He didn’t
rise from the dead and then die. I was afraid that purgatory wasn’t a luxury provided
to those who were alive at the time Jesus comes for the faithful. But it seems like
no one else is worried about this…
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Saints are not infallible. Their holiness does not make them infallible.
 
Careful! – personal"revelations," visions, auditions, etc., received by even the holiest of saints and mystics are just that, personal (and often “private”) events. They are not a part of the Deposit of Faith to which we all subscribe. They are often highly colored by the culture of the time in which they were received, the personality of the saint in question, and even IMHO by what the saint had for breakfast that day.
– Likewise, on all things related to the Assumption of Our Blessed Lady. It is a doctrine and a MYSTERY that has been debated in depth by the best of theologians for centuries. We simply do not know the details of its particulars. God in His wisdom has chosen not to give us any full record of them. Again, IMHO, best to stick to the clear, simple, and succinct language of the Holy Father’s pronouncement on this doctrine/event (was it 1954?).
– One poster described purgatory as a “deprivation of the presence of God,” I think. I certainly hope not. Perhaps he was speaking in short hand. A delay of the experience of the fullness of the presence of God, certainly. A delay of the Beatific Vision, yes. Can a true believer, filled with the Holy Spirit, shed this mortal flesh of sin, move closer to heaven, and at the same time be farther away from God? It seems like a logical impossibility to me. (Though God could do it.) If being in purgatory is completely outside the presence of God, does God employ imported demons from hell to do the necessary administrative and reparative work in purgatory? If God’s angels and saints are doing that work, are the souls detained there really deprived of the presence of God? Tis a puzzlement!
– Peace to all. – Rusty
 
LiamUK said:
Fair Enough

God Bless
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Yes, this poster beat me to it but I was also going to refer you to the Indulgences section of the CCC. I don’t know that it explains it necessarily, but it does refer to the term “temporal punishment”, so you know it’s a valid term.

All it really means is the damage/consequences, in time, of our sin…as opposed to the supernatural consequences/punishment. Both of these types of consequences/punishments are involved when we sin. We incur the supernatural punishment for our sin because any sin is an offense against God (‘whatever you do to the least of these, you do to Me’) and because it’s a violation of His natural law. The Sacrament of Confession removes, by God’s grace using the merits of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection, this supernatural punishment. However, the temporal punishment (the damage our sin does in the world and to others in the here and now) remains to some degree and that needs to also be expunged before we are ‘perfect’ and fit for the Beatific Vision/God’s Holy Presence.

We can also atone for this temporal punishment while still in this world through reparation, penance, prayer, indulgences, etc., (and the best of all, the feast of The Divine Mercy on Divine Mercy Sunday, the Sunday after Easter).

God bless you
Keep the faith! 👍
 
CWBetts said:
Jesus did not say “Today you will be with me in Heaven” or 'Today you will see the Father" He said Paradise, or the realm of the dead that were not damned before the opening of Heaven. At other times referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom” The truth is, Hevan wasn’t open to anyone until after the resurrection, therefore this verse does nothing to indicate theat there is no purgatory.
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CW: You may be overlooking something here, and that is the fact that all the acts of God/Jesus, besides taking place in our historical time, are also outside of time, as God is outside of time. In the same way that the sacrifice of Calvary, the act of our redemption, is made present at each Mass and not ‘repeated’ over and over again (because this sacrifice is always present to God in the “eternal now”), and in the same way that the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God was due to the merits of Jesus’ death and resurrection and was her redemption (same as it was our redemption) was accomplished by God by applying those merits “in advance” of the historical act. Because God is not bound by time and because the merits of His acts can be applied - by Him - backward, forward or in the present - by His decision and power, it is possible that the good thief was, indeed, welcomed into heaven, as Jesus promised him, prior to the actual resurrection ‘in time’. I don’t believe that parsing the words ‘heaven’ and ‘paradise’ proves anything or is even necessary, because there is no conflict in Jesus’ statement even if He DID mean heaven or ‘seeing the Father’…

Most take Jesus’ use of ‘paradise’ to mean ‘heaven’ and there is no conflict when we understand that God is not bound by time and that God could, if He so wished, grant entry to heaven/paradise on that very day. There is no problem viz Scripture with that interpretation and no contradiction with any doctrine - anymore than there is a contradiction between Mary’s Immaculate Conception and freedom from Original sin (her redemption) occurring prior to Jesus’ historical death and resurrection.

God’s providence be with you
🙂
 
alacoque said:
CW: You may be overlooking something here, and that is the fact that all the acts of God/Jesus, besides taking place in our historical time, are also outside of time, as God is outside of time. In the same way that the sacrifice of Calvary, the act of our redemption, is made present at each Mass and not ‘repeated’ over and over again (because this sacrifice is always present to God in the “eternal now”), and in the same way that the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God was due to the merits of Jesus’ death and resurrection and was her redemption (same as it was our redemption) was accomplished by God by applying those merits “in advance” of the historical act. Because God is not bound by time and because the merits of His acts can be applied - by Him - backward, forward or in the present - by His decision and power, it is possible that the good thief was, indeed, welcomed into heaven, as Jesus promised him, prior to the actual resurrection ‘in time’. I don’t believe that parsing the words ‘heaven’ and ‘paradise’ proves anything or is even necessary, because there is no conflict in Jesus’ statement even if He DID mean heaven or ‘seeing the Father’…

Most take Jesus’ use of ‘paradise’ to mean ‘heaven’ and there is no conflict when we understand that God is not bound by time and that God could, if He so wished, grant entry to heaven/paradise on that very day. There is no problem viz Scripture with that interpretation and no contradiction with any doctrine - anymore than there is a contradiction between Mary’s Immaculate Conception and freedom from Original sin (her redemption) occurring prior to Jesus’ historical death and resurrection.

God’s providence be with you
🙂
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Either way, the exchange between the thief and Jesus do not preclude Purgatory
 
alacoque said:
The point/purpose of Purgatory is ‘purgation’, or purification. Purgatory exists as an expression of the mercy of God, while also serving His justice. We are purified and made perfect in Purgatory, since nothing with the least stain or imperfection can enter into the presence of God. With rare exceptions, no one dies in a state of perfect goodness (immediately ready for Heaven and the Beatific Vision) and no one dies in a state of perfect evil, beyond all hope of purification due to their own free will / choices.

So, we see that the reason for Purgatory is our own purification, from the remaining temporal affects of personal sin in our lives. Regarding your question/issue, I think it is completely safe to say that since the purpose of Purgatory is our final purification into perfect holiness, the Lord will do that (on the last day) in some way of His design, if Purgatory is no longer an option for whatever reason.

The fact is we don’t know, for sure, the answer to your inquiry - but suffice it to say that we will be purified prior to our enjoying the Beatific Vision - whether the mode for that purification is Purgatory or some other means designed by God. Our final purification MUST happen; HOW it happens is ultimately up to God.

Peace!
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I don’t understand purgatory? didn’t Jesus die for our sins? Wasn’t his perfect sacrifice sufficient? He said from the cross, “It is finished.”
Is there a passage in the bible that teaches purgatory?

God bless,
jean
 
jean8 said:
I don’t understand purgatory? didn’t Jesus die for our sins? Wasn’t his perfect sacrifice sufficient? He said from the cross, “It is finished.”
Is there a passage in the bible that teaches purgatory?

God bless,
jean
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Purgatory is not punishment, it is purification. Did you ever notice that when we read about judgement in the Bible, that we are being judged according to our works? Do you remember reading that nothing impure can enter heaven? Purgatory is this state of putification. It is not punishmnet for sin, but rather a removal of impurity that we accumulate during this life. Are ye forgiven? Yes. But there is stil the stain of sin that must be cleaned. When Jesus said “It is finished” the “it” he is referring to is redemption. Every person in all time was redeemed at that very moment. However does that mean that all would be saved? No. Only thise who have a living faith that is displayed through good works are saved. Jesus’ cricifixion completed work was redemption, we are justified by our faith, and sanctified through Purgatory if we fail to reach that level of holiness in our earthly life.
 
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