No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches

[GKC]

Should we review the founding of the Anglican Church?

Henry VIII is always a great topic of discussion…

Amen!

What feast do you suppose Paul was speaking of?

I’m your huckleberry (as Doc Holliday said).

I find Hank to be a source of fascination, a most interesting train wreck. He and his times are a hobbies of mine.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[Randy_Carson]

“…remember…” is another term for “commemoration of Me.” However, the most important words that preceeded " rememberance/commemoration"

He said, “DO THIS IN remembrance/commemoration of Me”
He was instituting His UNBLOODY sacrifice of the Mass so generations may have their sins forgiven. It wasn’t so that He should not be forgotten.

Bingo!

 

[estesbob]

I’m your huckleberry (as Doc Holliday said).

I find Hank to be a source of fascination, a most interesting train wreck. He and his times are a hobbies of mine.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

The mini-series “The Tudors” makes him look like the middle-ages version of Hugh Hefner.

 

[MarisStella]

Reading all of this back and forth debating has been very interesting (and time consuming)! My heart aches when I read about Catholics who have left the church, but I can understand because I too wasn’t well catechised. What I’ve learned (which has been quite a lot over the past 10 years or so) has been through EWTN, bible study, and lots of reading and praying.
I did not really know or understand the Eucharist, even though I’m a cradle Catholic who has been going to Mass and receiving the Eucharist for years.
Now, I feel like I’m only beginning to touch on the surface of the most wonderful mystery of Jesus giving us His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity to feed and nourish us on our earthly journey.
You know what has made a huge difference for me? Eucharistic Adoration. When my mother went into a nursing home run by Carmelite sisters a few years ago, through my visits there and ongoing contact with them, I was eventually invited by one of the sisters to participate in Eucharistic Adoration. My dear mother died last year and I frequently tell others of the gift that she gave me without even realising it (she had Alzheimers). Her entrance into the nursing home, painful though it was for all of us, did actually give me the gift of Jesus in the Eucharist. And isn’t that the way that God works, He’s in everything…“For we know that all things work for good for those who love the Lord and who are called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28
I say that she gave me the gift of Jesus in the Eucharist. Of course, He was there all along, but I did not have eyes to see.
At first, it seemed strange. At times I would pray along with the father in Mark 9:24 “I believe, help my unbelief!”
And He did. No great “aha” moment. Just a gradual growth in my faith and my recognition that it is indeed Him.
One day as I was walking back to the chapel at Mt. Carmel for my hour of Eucharistic Adoration, one of the dear, very elderly sisters grabbed my arm and said smilingly “He’s waiting for you!” and I thought, “Yes! Yes! He is! And I can’t wait to see Him!”
Praise God for His grace which has enabled me, has enabled all of us who call ourselves Christian, to have faith and believe! Jesus speaking to the apostle Thomas said, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” John 20:29

 

[cheddarsox]

Sounds like you belonged to a Catholic Church none of us who still belong recognize. To say you were were poorly catechized would be an understatement.

Ah yes…the…if they didn’t remain in the church, it was the result of poor cathechism…reasoning.

I know you cannot fathom that anyone who was properly taught could possibly find anything wrong with the teachings, yet, somehow…it happens.

And…I know a number of Catholics, who do recognize the issue I mentioned. So, maybe things havent changed so drastically in the 25 years…I can’t say, since I am no longer Catholic, I’ve been going by what the “insiders” report as far as present day conditions.

 

[cheddarsox]

Dear Cheddarsox,

are you avoiding answering my question?

You made the accusation that what I stated was “ridicuous”

Please back this up and tell me which Christians denied it prior to the Reformation?

No, I wasn’t avoiding your question…it’s Sunday, and Mother’s day, and I have a life outside of these forums…hence the delay.

Here is a Catholic site that talks about some of the earlier examples of christians rejecting transubstantiation. It is even mentioned in the Bible, when Jesus spoke to his disciples of them needing to eat his flesh and drink his blood, many turned away. so…it’s been an issue from early on.

I’m not arguing Real Presence. I accept it. I am arguing the statement that it was never challeged until Luther.

therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist/Eucharist

cheddar

 

[estesbob]

Ah yes…the…if they didn’t remain in the church, it was the result of poor cathechism…reasoning.

I know you cannot fathom that anyone who was properly taught could possibly find anything wrong with the teachings, yet, somehow…it happens.

And…I know a number of Catholics, who do recognize the issue I mentioned. So, maybe things havent changed so drastically in the 25 years…I can’t say, since I am no longer Catholic, I’ve been going by what the “insiders” report as far as present day conditions.

You left the Church because of your percieved shortcomings of some of the members of the Church… Hardly a reason to reject the One True Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. What I found even more amazing is you left Our chruch over the supposed “pridefullness” of its members to join a Church who’s very foundation was based on ego and lust! Go figure.

Oh and BTW-anyone who leaves the Truth to settle for a pale shadow of the turth was definately poorly cathecized.

 

[cheddarsox]

And has been from the beginning.

“This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

However, Jesus did not pander to the crowd by saying, “Hey, c’mon back, folks. I was speaking metaphorically.” :nope:

They left him because they could not accept his teaching. It is still so.

Every Christian?

Maybe not. But the Church continues to proclaim the truth whether people accept it or not.

She has a hard time getting people to accept the resurrection, too. Some believe and some don’t.

Their lack of faith does not diminish the truth of the teaching, however.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

I never argued the truth of Real Presence. I argued that Luther was, by far, not the first to challenge it.

I know you are in a hurry to defend your faith…even against those who did not challenge it, but only an incorrect statement made about church history.

hope this helps

 

[estesbob]

I’m not arguing Real Presence. I accept it

But you never experience it-how sad.

 

[cheddarsox]

Well, Ratramnus and Berengarius each got into a little controversy over the definitions.

Don’t get the wrong idea. I’m Anglican; I think Trent, Session XIII got it right. But what I read Cheddarsox as saying is historically correct. The idea of the Real Presence has been a complicated one.

GKC

Thankyou. I am very honored that you not only took the time to attentively read my post, but didn’t immediately assume I was attacking your faith, and rush to defend it at the expense of understanding the point I was making.

that is, unfortunately, a rare thing on these forums.

I accept the Real Presence, but, as you say, it has been a complicated issue right from the start.

 

[Lee]

This was obviously posted to propagate an argument with the many non-Catholics here. You seem to be that kind of individual in the short time I have been here. What you have stated is an abject lie that the Catholic church has used to attempt to keep their members intact. The real truth is that Jesus is where two or more are gathered. There is nothing whatsoever in scripture that suggests that only Catholics and Orthodoxs have the real presence of Christ, nothing at all. I am absolutely sick of this badgering and it is one of the main reasons why I left the Catholic church. You can’t do whatever you wish to whomever you wish throughout history and just claim that God ordained it to be and if someone disagrees then they are automatically wrong. Anyone can claim to be anything but it doesn’t make it so.

And exactly what church did you end up in? Sorry, but I have very rarely seen Catholics outside of chat rooms display the kind of badgering you are talking about. You come back to me when there is a Catholic priest standing outside your church saying that you are going to burn in hell because your are Protestant. Every Palm Sunday after Mass in my Cathedral there is someone with his bible saying that about me and my Catholic Bretheren. I have never heard a priest in all my years say something bad about a Protestant Chuch during Mass, though I have been to many a Protestant service or Sunday school and had to endure outright Catholic bashing. Yes, we may believe we are the one true Church, but I find Catholics to be very humble about this belief. We dont go putting flyers in windshielf wipers at the local Protestant Church telling them their wrong. Really, I think you had other reasons for leaving the Church.

 

[cheddarsox]

I read your post carefully. You were unhappy with the way some people were acting. That’s understandable.

Scandalous behavior is a problem. Wouldn’t it have been more appropriate for you to remain and encourage your brothers and sisters to live properly?

Jesus instructed you as follows:

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

It kinda sounds like you took your lamp and went elsewhere.

I took my lamp where the Divine led me. Still shining. I was not informed that it was my calling to be the next Doctor of the Church. I’m sure that God will provide one in His good time.
Maybe its YOU!

Or, maybe it’s me…through you, and others who take the time to stay in conversation with folks like me.

Often people tell me why I left, without bothering to listen. They think that loving the Church means they cannot hear even honest concern from those who have left.

Not all of us are hatin’ and out to destroy the Catholic Church.

believe me, it wasn’t easy to leave. One of the hardest things I have ever done.

 

[cheddarsox]

You left the Church because of your percieved shortcomings of some of the members of the Church… Hardly a reason to reject the One True Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. What I found even more amazing is you left Our chruch over the supposed “pridefullness” of its members to join a Church who’s very foundation was based on ego and lust! Go figure.

Oh and BTW-anyone who leaves the Truth to settle for a pale shadow of the turth was definately poorly cathecized.

I see that you have already come to your conclusions about me, not really interested in letting me speak for myself. So…have fun with that.

I didn’t leave over pridefulness of the members…you got that wrong, but by all means, hang with the version that most easily fits your predetermined arguements, thats so much less of a bother than actually dialoging with a real person, and a real situation.

this is what makes these forums so tiresome. someone says something…and then someone else plays “let me translate that into Catholicspeak for you”.

It’s sunday, the day of rest, don’t bother to leave your comfort zone on my account.

It’s so much easier to blame poor catechesis and say…next!

isn’t it a wonder I haven’t hurried back to the church?

 

[cheddarsox]

You left the Church because of your percieved shortcomings of some of the members of the Church… Hardly a reason to reject the One True Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. What I found even more amazing is you left Our chruch over the supposed “pridefullness” of its members to join a Church who’s very foundation was based on ego and lust! Go figure.

Oh and BTW-anyone who leaves the Truth to settle for a pale shadow of the turth was definately poorly cathecized.

oh, almost forgot…what church did I join who’s foundation is based on ego and pride?

What do you think you know about me…and all without asking…?

I’m so impressed!

no pride involved in your assumptions…I’m sure

 

[cheddarsox]

But you never experience it-how sad.

again…with the assumptions. You don’t know me. so maybe it would be better to stick to the issues. I may be the person kneeling next to you at adoration.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

That contradicts your heading, which is “No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches” - “most” =/= “no”.​

Only the two large main Christian body which is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church maintain Holy Orders and valid Sacraments.

The Assyrians & Armenians & others offer the Eucharist too.​

Therefore, these Churches have Real Presence of Jesus in the form of Bread and Wine, which has become Jesus Christ.

No - has become His Body & Blood. The difference is a subtle one, but important.​

For His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is there but hidden in the appearance of Unleaven Bread (leaven Bread / E. Rite/Orthodox).

Though there are Protestant Tradition that have bishops in the Anglican Churches and Episcopalian, they do not have valid sacrament since the Church of England broke their union with Rome during the Reformations.

Some Anglican clergy are validly ordained - such as those who were formerly RC priests. If their intention is to do what the Church does, & if they use valid form & valid matter, then that Eucharist is valid by Roman standards. Apostolicae Curae does not take account of such clergy.​

There is some presence of Jesus Christ but only in Spiritual form in the communities founded in the Protestant Churches but they lack Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing second-rate (which is what seems to be implied) in that, since His Eucharistic Presence is no less spiritual. So even if the the sacramental sign is not sacramental, but is bread & no more, the inward spiritual grace conferred is present - the sacramental gift is the visible vehicle of the spiritual good conferred by the sacrament: & Jesus Christ is not bound to the sacraments - He can dispense with the sacramental vehicle, & give grace in other ways instead.​

To press on the Eucharist with one’s teeth is worthless, if there is no faith in the recipient.

FWIW, Masses in which invalid matter is used are invalid, so they are not Masses; which does not mean that grace is not conferred even so (it is intolerable, to put it mildly, that invalid matter should be used even once.) ##

I have been approached several times by Non-Catholic Christians to go to to alter in an Non-Denomination Church and I said to myself. "Why should I join this Church since this Church lack the Blessed Lord’s Real Presence? I cannot. So I remain Catholic. The Jesus’ Presence in the Blessed Sacrament is the only that has kept me Catholic.

If I leave, where will I go? Maybe I can go as far as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Yet I remain a Catholic.

For you Non-Catholic Christians who want us to leave our Church, convince us why we should leave. For I tell you there is no Real Presence of Jesus in your Church. Not One.

Even so, God is not defeated by such things - He gives grace to whom He wills, & is not bound by anything that binds us.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

We have the sacrament of baptism, which even the Catholic Church acknowledges is valid. So we do have the sacraments.

In Rome’s opinion. The Anglican Church, of course, has a different opinion, as does Orthodoxy when it comes to the Pope.

I suspect having Jesus in spiritual form is more than enough, and more than any of us deserve.

I overlooked that last point - but how true ​

…O+

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi,
I was talking about this statement that I bolded. Just in case you didnt get the question

But I understand if you dont want to answer it. Maybe another catholic here will.
I was just curious because I have never heard it asked this way before.

It was a needless inference - it’s not Jesus leaves us, but that He wished His disciples to join in table-fellowship with one another: as we see them doing in Acts This table-fellowship is a participation, by the redeemed community which He founded, in the blessings of the eschatological banquet mentioned in several parables; for them to share in it at the Last Supper was the greatest gift He could give to His disciples; & by sharing in it then, they shared in the fruits of His coming victory on the Cross. We share in it too, in the same way - except that we live late than they did. The Lord is the same, & so is His gift. That’s why we renew it - He told us to, until His Coming.​

 

[johnstown_johnn]

When the protstant Reformation broke with the Roman catholic Church, the continuity of priestly ordinations were also broken.

Clergy of the Reformation did not and could not confer on their newly ordained priests the powers to forgive sins; Consecrate bread and wine and could not ordain priests.

Therefore, the necessary sacraments in forgiving sins committed after Baptism (Original Sin) are not handed down to the generations.

A duly ordained Catholic bishop confers those powers by the laying of hands on the candidate…the laying of hands has been continuous for 2,000 years.

Absent the laying of hands means the absence of a true priesthood.

Christ is spiritually Present, yes, but he is bodily present in the tabernacles everywhere.

 

[GKC]

Thankyou. I am very honored that you not only took the time to attentively read my post, but didn’t immediately assume I was attacking your faith, and rush to defend it at the expense of understanding the point I was making.

that is, unfortunately, a rare thing on these forums.

I accept the Real Presence, but, as you say, it has been a complicated issue right from the start.

You’re welcome. But remember, I’m not Roman Catholic. I’m another sort of Catholic (Duck!).

History is general is complicated.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus