No recession

[SeekerJen]

Seeker Jan,
Does your mother live in Michigan? Unfortunately, the worst economies are in states like that. They have been unable to
attract new industries because of their high taxes and therefore
there are no new jobs going into those states. There are other
problems, of course, but that is a big one.
The answer is for voters to clean house with the people in leader-
ship positions and change the dynamics. I understand that there
are areas in Michigan that are not as bad as Detroit, but Detroit
drags down a lot of the economy.
I will keep your mom in my prayers.

Thanks, but you do realize that what happens in one or a few places will eventually hit everywhere? We are a national and increasingly global economy. Say Ford Motor Company goes under. My hometown will go bankrupt, but it doesn’t stop there. All of the plants across the world will close. All of the dealerships will close. All of the suppliers and distributors will close- the people who design and produce the specialized components, all of their support staff, the drivers who move the goods from point A to point B. This will impact home sales and values in ALL of those communities. Stores and restaurants will suffer because much of their business came from the workers. Church donations will suffer because people won’t be able to give anymore. Hospitals will start struggling because as people lose their health insurance due to loss of jobs, they will have to rely on free emergency care, which also clogs up the emergency rooms.

Do you understand that this is not just Michigan?

 

[buffalo]

Thanks, but you do realize that what happens in one or a few places will eventually hit everywhere? We are a national and increasingly global economy. Say Ford Motor Company goes under. My hometown will go bankrupt, but it doesn’t stop there. All of the plants across the world will close. All of the dealerships will close. All of the suppliers and distributors will close- the people who design and produce the specialized components, all of their support staff, the drivers who move the goods from point A to point B. This will impact home sales and values in ALL of those communities. Stores and restaurants will suffer because much of their business came from the workers. Church donations will suffer because people won’t be able to give anymore. Hospitals will start struggling because as people lose their health insurance due to loss of jobs, they will have to rely on free emergency care, which also clogs up the emergency rooms.

Do you understand that this is not just Michigan?

We experienced that in the 80’s here in Buffalo. Growth since has been flat. There have been struggles.

Our lawmakers are still hooked on high taxes making it business unfriendly. They now realize it but still cannot wean themselves.

It takes a while to adjust. Many people had to move to find jobs others to escape taxes.

However, there are many bright spots. Many small mfgs are still going strong.

 

[SeekerJen]

We experienced that in the 80’s here in Buffalo. Growth since has been flat. There have been struggles.

Our lawmakers are still hooked on high taxes making it business unfriendly. They now realize it but still cannot wean themselves.

It takes a while to adjust. Many people had to move to find jobs others to escape taxes.

However, there are many bright spots. Many small mfgs are still going strong.

How did they manage to sell their houses? We bought five years ago, fixed-rate standard mortgage, down payment, etc. We’ve never missed a payment nor have we even been late on a payment. We carefully bought within our means so that we wouldn’t have to worry. Yet thanks to the housing bubble, we now owe more on our house than it’s worth. We went the safe way and still got burned, and there’s no way we could unload this albatross and hope to come out in the clear (we’ve abandoned all hope of making any profit). And even if we could find someone to take our house for what we owe, there’s no guarantee that person could ever get a mortgage loan in this market.

I think a lot of people here would gladly move if they could. Unfortunately a perfect storm of factors have us trapped.

 

[buffalo]

How did they manage to sell their houses? We bought five years ago, fixed-rate standard mortgage, down payment, etc. We’ve never missed a payment nor have we even been late on a payment. We carefully bought within our means so that we wouldn’t have to worry. Yet thanks to the housing bubble, we now owe more on our house than it’s worth. We went the safe way and still got burned, and there’s no way we could unload this albatross and hope to come out in the clear (we’ve abandoned all hope of making any profit). And even if we could find someone to take our house for what we owe, there’s no guarantee that person could ever get a mortgage loan in this market.

I think a lot of people here would gladly move if they could. Unfortunately a perfect storm of factors have us trapped.

Our property values remained stable steady but modest increases. Associates in other parts of the country kept bragging about how much their house price was rising. Some sold and profited, but I always wondered how much they then paid for their new house?

Now the chicken has come home to roost. Most of us here in Buffalo are OK.

Most of us bought a roof over our heads not an investment.

 

[SeekerJen]

Our property values remained stable steady but modest increases. Associates in other parts of the country kept bragging about how much their house price was rising. Some sold and profited, but I always wondered how much they then paid for their new house?

Now the chicken has come home to roost. Most of us here in Buffalo are OK.

I’m not asking about now; I’m asking about the '80s when people left to find jobs. How did they sell their houses without going bankrupt?

 

[buffalo]

I’m not asking about now; I’m asking about the '80s when people left to find jobs. How did they sell their houses without going bankrupt?

Some who lost jobs did go bankrupt. Many didn’t. During this time many didn’t rack up the credit card debt. They budgeted through the use of cash only. They bought what they needed, not what they wanted.

At first the city housing values were not depressed and there was still demand.

As time went on, as in many cities, we have had a rush to the suburbs to avoid the collapse of neighborhoods after the social experiment of forced integration. These neighborhoods home values have fallen and many have simply been abandoned and are falling to the wrecking ball.

During the same period we have seen beautiful 2,000 plus sq foot homes going up all over the suburbs to accommadate this movement. The people who survived worked hard and were frugal with spending.

It’s complicated - did this help?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Thanks, but you do realize that what happens in one or a few places will eventually hit everywhere? We are a national and increasingly global economy. Say Ford Motor Company goes under. My hometown will go bankrupt, but it doesn’t stop there. All of the plants across the world will close. All of the dealerships will close. All of the suppliers and distributors will close- the people who design and produce the specialized components, all of their support staff, the drivers who move the goods from point A to point B. This will impact home sales and values in ALL of those communities. Stores and restaurants will suffer because much of their business came from the workers. Church donations will suffer because people won’t be able to give anymore. Hospitals will start struggling because as people lose their health insurance due to loss of jobs, they will have to rely on free emergency care, which also clogs up the emergency rooms.

Do you understand that this is not just Michigan?

Ford and GM have some terrible business practices.

Partly as a result, competition … other car companies have set up manufacturing plants in the southern U.S.

So, while Ford and GM are hurting, those other car plants are not.

Michigan is a very high tax state. Those high taxes drive businesses out and they drive people out. I know because I live in THE HIGHEST TAX STATE … New Jersey.

Other high tax states are also experiencing a net outflow of people and business.

It’s not “across the world”. It’s just the high tax places.

Ireland cut their corporate tax rate and their economy has been growing hugely.

The United States now has the second highest corporate tax rate of any developed country. Companies move to where they are wanted; they don’t move to or expand in countries where they get penalized.

The reason the U.S. Federal system exists is that the system provides for and allows the individual states to compete … they can offer either a high-tax environment or a low-tax environment. Then everyone can see which system works best.

 

[buffalo]

Ford and GM have some terrible business practices.

Partly as a result, competition … other car companies have set up manufacturing plants in the southern U.S.

So, while Ford and GM are hurting, those other car plants are not.

Michigan is a very high tax state. Those high taxes drive businesses out and they drive people out. I know because I live in THE HIGHEST TAX STATE … New Jersey.

Other high tax states are also experiencing a net outflow of people and business.

It’s not “across the world”. It’s just the high tax places.

Ireland cut their corporate tax rate and their economy has been growing hugely.

The United States now has the second highest corporate tax rate of any developed country. Companies move to where they are wanted; they don’t move to or expand in countries where they get penalized.

The reason the U.S. Federal system exists is that the system provides for and allows the individual states to compete … they can offer either a high-tax environment or a low-tax environment. Then everyone can see which system works best.

American car companies have over 100 job descriptions, the Japanese have 7.

 

[SeekerJen]

Ireland cut their corporate tax rate and their economy has been growing hugely.

Really?

Irish economy sinks into recession
Ireland is first eurozone nation in recession
Ireland becomes first euro-zone nation in recession
Irish economy enters recession
Irish stock market has worst fall
Downturn cages the Celtic Tiger
Ireland leads euroland into recession as property crashes
Whatever way you look at it, we’re in recession now

The tax cuts don’t seem to have staved off the effects of the global economy. Like I said, it’s not just Detroit. Sure, it’s fun to kick Michigan when it’s down, but this will affect a lot more people before it’s over.

 

[DebChris]

My mother lost her job on Monday, along with 20 other people from her building alone (not counting all the people at other locations in her company). Our friend was fired from her last nursing job due to recurring health issues that were out of her control and caused her to miss work and has not been able to get another job for well over a year. My labmate’s father has been out of work since February. I haven’t talked to my high school friends’ father recently; last I knew he was out of his long-time Ford engineering job and hadn’t found anything for months. My mom’s former coworker is hoping she’s not cut next because her husband works in construction and has been laid off indefinitely.

Hopefully this will also make you think. I’m glad that people in your small community are doing well. Unfortunately the country overall has eliminated three-quarters of a million jobs in 2008 as of September. If you ask a broader spectrum of people across the country, I suspect the answer will not be so positive.

I do not live in Michigan. Where I lived in WI, the factory (the main employer) is dependent on the ups and downs of the auto industry in terms of how many people are needed.

Now to where I currently live, the news tonight was K Mart laying off 390 local employees. Last week’s news was 570 being laid offs from a different company. Basically, there are daily reports of layoffs and few about companies hiring.

Many here have been laid off for months. The recession is not news.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

Basically, there are daily reports of layoffs and few about companies hiring.

You forget, the left does not like good news, it will make the Republicans look better. They (including their commrads in the MSM) are deliberately talking down the economy. Just part of the leftist election fraud agenda

 

[DebChris]

You forget, the left does not like good news, it will make the Republicans look better. They (including their commrads in the MSM) are deliberately talking down the economy. Just part of the leftist election fraud agenda

I am one of the people who has been out of work for a very long time.
It is not a matter of the media. It is a matter of life that is being lived by very real people. It is going to the grocery store and finding that the price of rice has doubled. It is living without a vehicle and using public transportation because no income means a person cannot replace what was destroyed.
I lived in WA during the big Boeing layoff that effected so many people. Again, it is not simply what is being reported. It is what I am seeing with my own eyes.
Burying our head in the sand and pretending that all is well when it is not solves nothing. As an individual I cannot change the economic situation. It is good that there are pockets where people are not experiencing the same difficulties.
What I can do is continue my search. What I have done is return to school, giving myself time and additional training for when things do get better.
The economy is not a matter of Republican vs. Democrat. It is big news when jobs come to town. It is also news when our tax money is used to try to turn the economy back.

 

[stinkcat_14]

In the current economy, there are people who are doing ok, and people who are really hurting. Some industries are really experiencing difficulties. If you are in one of those that is doing well, that is something to thank God for. If you are in the wrong part of the economy, things can be a real trial.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Really?

Irish economy sinks into recession
Ireland is first eurozone nation in recession
Ireland becomes first euro-zone nation in recession
Irish economy enters recession
Irish stock market has worst fall
Downturn cages the Celtic Tiger
Ireland leads euroland into recession as property crashes
Whatever way you look at it, we’re in recession now

The tax cuts don’t seem to have staved off the effects of the global economy. Like I said, it’s not just Detroit. Sure, it’s fun to kick Michigan when it’s down, but this will affect a lot more people before it’s over.

In fairness, I think that when Al talks about Ireland cutting its corporate tax rate he is talking about one of the principal factors in the growth of the Celtic Tiger **in the past **rather than the current situation. Ireland cut its corporate tax some years ago and NOT in response to the current economic turmoil. idaireland.com/home/index.aspx?id=659 In the current crisis, Ireland moved to guarantee all bank deposits, a decision that triggered similar actions in Germany and other nations which were concerned that nervous depositors would move their bank accounts to Ireland.

 

[DebChris]

In the current economy, there are people who are doing ok, and people who are really hurting. Some industries are really experiencing difficulties. If you are in one of those that is doing well, that is something to thank God for. If you are in the wrong part of the economy, things can be a real trial.

Thanks. Very succinctly put.
My parents lived through the Great Depression.
What they talked about was how they always had food on the table. We always had fruits and vegetables.
Many did not. Their stories were of hobos that they were able to feed, even when it meant killing the last chicken they owned.
There are people now turning to food banks who would never have considered the possibility that they would ever be one of “those people.” And for the first time, many of these food banks are experiencing shortages. More people needing help and fewer donations coming in.

 

[SeekerJen]

Thanks. Very succinctly put.
My parents lived through the Great Depression.
What they talked about was how they always had food on the table. We always had fruits and vegetables.
Many did not. Their stories were of hobos that they were able to feed, even when it meant killing the last chicken they owned.
There are people now turning to food banks who would never have considered the possibility that they would ever be one of “those people.” And for the first time, many of these food banks are experiencing shortages. More people needing help and fewer donations coming in.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my British advisor last week. He had heard one of the CNN economic pundits saying that if this continued, the breadlines of the Great Depression would be a real possibility. He started reminiscing about being a child in the 70s when the bakers in Britain went on strike and you had to bake bread at home because there wasn’t bread in the stores. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that his idea wasn’t what was meant by “breadline”.

Yeah, I’m truly concerned about this. Before my life got sucked into the vortex of school, I volunteered with the SVDP conference at my parish. I volunteered for about four years, and in that time the number of clients seeking help steadily increased, and so many of them needed food assistance. Two years later, I imagine that number is growing exponentially, and with so many people needing the assistance of food banks, that means that the number of people able to donate is dropping as well. I can’t remember where I read this story last week, but thrift stores are starting to get concerned about inventory stocks- more middle-class shoppers are coming in, and people are making fewer donations, choosing to hold on to their clothes and goods longer rather than pay to replace them.

 

[maryj]

Thanks. Very succinctly put.
My parents lived through the Great Depression.
What they talked about was how they always had food on the table. We always had fruits and vegetables.
Many did not. Their stories were of hobos that they were able to feed, even when it meant killing the last chicken they owned.
There are people now turning to food banks who would never have considered the possibility that they would ever be one of “those people.” And for the first time, many of these food banks are experiencing shortages. More people needing help and fewer donations coming in.

And I know of a lot of stories from old timers that lived through the great depression and will state it was one of the best times in their lives. You shared, you lived as a community, you helped one another out.

 

[DebChris]

And I know of a lot of stories from old timers that lived through the great depression and will state it was one of the best times in their lives. You shared, you lived as a community, you helped one another out.

Survivors of Hurricane Andrew have reported on the growth of community during the aftermath. Before the storm, many had no idea who their neighbor was.
One of the things I like about riding the bus is the different people I meet, that I would not have known if I still had a car.
I remember reading an award winning short story years ago. The young man wrote about his experience in the Peace Corps. When he first arrived, he walked everywhere. He talked to the people in the village. He got a bicycle and waved as he rode by. At last he had a vehicle and could drive to the big city. In the big city, he saw the hovels and understood. He got rid of his vehicle and began again to walk among the people of the village.