No Salvation Doctrine: Since when?

[jwinch2]

Yes, indeed. Speaking of twisting teachings, have you overlooked the encyclical of this very same Pope, who wrote in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore…

Yes, there exists the possibility that some outside the Church can be saved. I have never denied that. However, that is the exception, rather than the rule itself. The encyclical goes on to say:

1. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11]
2. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

Why would we need to “rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen” and “guide them back to Catholic truth” so that they “will gain eternal salvation” if they are just fine where they are at?

 

[jwinch2]

I have no idea what JW’s teach. Dei Verbum teaches …

If anyone wants to believe that the 5,000+ Councillors who voted on this document were somehow misguided, lacked understanding, and were completely in error, that is their perogative. As for me and my house…we will serve the Lord and listen to His Church.

I could have missed it, but I have not seen anyone in this thread claim that either Dei Verbum or the council Fathers were in error.

 

[Sirach2]

Yes, there exists the possibility that some outside the Church can be saved. I have never denied that. However, that is the exception, rather than the rule itself. The encyclical goes on to say:
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.

This is not in any way related to #7 touching upon invincible ignorance. It speaks of those who OPPOSE, meaning an active willful decision.

1. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
   Why would we need to “rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen” and “guide them back to Catholic truth” so that they “will gain eternal salvation” if they are just fine where they are at?

Again, this does not deal with inviincible ignorance, and Lumen Gentium and a host of other documents dealt with this. We need to make every effort to evangelize and not rest on our laurels. Nobody has denied that.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Thank you for your good sense, Guanophone. JMJ will most assuredly find the truth he seeks, and we do not need to engage ourselves debating with trads who fail to understand this doctrine. I believe no amount of words or counter-documents will suffice for them. If they are truly seeking, let them ask valid questions, as JMJ is doing. Otherwise, I think it’s time to let them have the floor while their time is short.

Well to be correct here, the Church does not say that non-Catholics are saved. You do realize that, yes? It only acknowledges the technical possibility that a non-Catholic may be saved.

But for all practical purposes, the Church sees the best chances of salvation is for those who embrace the Catholic Church and give full assent of the mind and will to her teachings and guidance. So nothing has really changed in terms of how we approach our daily lives. Our goal should be to bring all non-Catholics in to the Church. Apostasy is still as bad as it used to be. The only difference from before is that instead of saying the one who refuses to become Catholic as definitely damned, we will say that God may still save them (not apart from the Church but still through the truths and Graces given through the Church).

So in that sense, the Traditional Catholic views and practices are more consistent with the truth than the current practices of those who have distorted the teaching. Therefore, it is most likely that it is the other camp which is looking at a very short future

 

[guanophore]

Yes, there exists the possibility that some outside the Church can be saved. I have never denied that. However, that is the exception, rather than the rule itself.

No, this is not consistent with the Catholic faith. The CC says there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Those who are saved that are not visible members are only saved through invisible membership in the ONE CHURCH, because they are connected to the One Head, Jesus Christ.

Why would we need to “rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen” and “guide them back to Catholic truth” so that they “will gain eternal salvation” if they are just fine where they are at?

The Church recognizes Trinitarian Baptism as the entrance rite into the Church, and the Body of Christ. However, Protestants who are sanctified in Baptism receive deficient teachings, and are vulnerable to make choices contrary to the teachings of Christ, even in ignorance.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Again, this does not deal with inviincible ignorance, and Lumen Gentium and a host of other documents dealt with this. We need to make every effort to evangelize and not rest on our laurels. Nobody has denied that.

But what you are defending or proposing makes it sound like the Church declared “Those outside the Church are saved” which it did not.

So for all practical purposes, the fact that there is a slim chance someone might be saved without officially being Catholic does not factor in to how we live our lives. We do not bank on such possibility of someone being saved till our normal method of evangelizing and converting them to be part of the Church has failed. Even then, it is not our call.

To put this another way, just because the Church will say in 2020 AD that unbaptized babies who die are saved and in heaven does not mean that we should put any less effort as parents to have our babies baptized. So similarly, this technicality should not affect our lives when all it has done is lead many people to incorrectly believe that all Protestants and those in other religions are saved if they continue to be good Protestants/Muslims/Hindus etc.

 

[Ghislieri]

You tell me. Here is the article from which the poster pulled that isolated paragraph. The whole article focused on his speech to religious: the International Union of Superiors General (UISG). How do you interpret it?

I think the same rule that our holy father is applying to the religious would apply to those outside the Catholic church, no? Or are there two different criteria’s in assesing love for Christ and His Church?

The quote that our holy father he used was made by Pope Paul VI, and that was not being applied to religous when he uttered that. So I guess I would ask, how would you understand what Paul VI said?

 

[Eufrosnia]

No, this is not consistent with the Catholic faith. The CC says there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Those who are saved that are not visible members are only saved through invisible membership in the ONE CHURCH, because they are connected to the One Head, Jesus Christ.

If I may ask, how do you then understand this statement from Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi

“Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond.”

It seems, at least at first glance to disagree with the idea of invisible membership, no?

I have always understood VII as therefore saying that Baptism is the sign of starting a visible membership in the Church, and that as the way we reconcile the two. So Protestants are those who like pretty bad Catholics who although baptized are refusing to assent to the Church in a sense. But at the same time, a Catholic who becomes Protestant is guilty of Apostasy while a Protestant who remains Protestant is not. Which seems to indicate there being a difference.

 

[Sirach2]

But what you are defending or proposing makes it sound like the Church declared “Those outside the Church are saved” which it did not.

I have never said that. You are imputing meanings that I never expressed - not even close.

However, the Church has said that christians who are lawfully baptized in the trinitarian formula belong to the Mystical Body of Christ, although imperfectly. We never rebaptize them when they enter the Church, since their baptism was valid in their own faith.

Pius XII spoke clearly about this in Mystici Corporis (guess what - prior to V-II).

 

[jwinch2]

No, this is not consistent with the Catholic faith. The CC says there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Those who are saved that are not visible members are only saved through invisible membership in the ONE CHURCH, because they are connected to the One Head, Jesus Christ.

Mea Culpa. I misspoke. It would be more proper to say that God, in His mercy, may choose to reveal the Truth of the Catholic Faith to some who are outside of the Church through no fault of their own and are sincere in their seeking of God.

My intent when using the word “exception” is the incorrect idea that all or even most will receive such a revelation which would imply that there is little benefit to being in the Church throughout one’s life.

Thanks for the catch on that.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I have never said that. You are imputing meanings that I never expressed - not even close.

However, the Church has said that christians who are lawfully baptized in the trinitarian formula belong to the Mystical Body of Christ, although imperfectly. We never rebaptize them when they enter the Church, since their baptism was valid in their own faith.

Well no one is discussing re-baptism. But do you admit then that those who are baptized must still come in to full communion with the Church as far as practical daily lives and efforts of Catholics are concerned?

 

[Saints_Alive]

I think the same rule that our holy father is applying to the religious would apply to those outside the Catholic church, no? Or are there two different criteria’s in assesing love for Christ and His Church?

The quote that our holy father he used was made by Pope Paul VI, and that was not being applied to religous when he uttered that. So I guess I would ask, how would you understand what Paul VI said?

Good question

 

[Sirach2]

Well no one is discussing re-baptism. But do you admit then that those who are baptized must still come in to full communion with the Church as far as practical daily lives and efforts of Catholics are concerned?

I’m not sure what you mean. That they MUST become CATHOLIC in full communion, or what? They do not achieve salvation? That is false. Read Mystici Corporis and then we’ll talk.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I’m not sure what you mean. That they MUST become CATHOLIC in full communion, or what? They do not achieve salvation? That is false. Read Mystici Corporis and then we’ll talk.

Actually, I have read Mystici Corporis Christi. What is your point?

As for your other question, no, unless someone comes in to full communion with the Catholic Church, their chances of salvation are slimmer. So the best chance of salvation is if one give full assent of the mind and will to the Catholic Church. Do you deny that?

P.S. Baptism is not the be all and end all of salvation. To say so is almost Protestant like. After Baptism, a believer must persevere. Important sources of Grace like the Sacrament of Confession and the Eucharist are missing in Protestant Churches. Important sources of Grace such as the Authority and guidance of the Pope is missing in Orthodox Churches. All of this seems to be swept under the carpet and you have decided to emphasize baptism as the only sacrament required for salvation?

 

[Ghislieri]

These are some quotes from some recent popes to add to the conversation.

“Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to NO ONE; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if a man be separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members nor is he fed by His Spirit.” Pope Paul VI

“We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present, namely: Indifferentism, that vicious manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE.” Pope Gregory XVI

“It is an error in a matter of divine truth to imagine the Church as invisible, by which many Christian communities, although they differ from each other in their faith, are united by a bond that is invisible to the senses.” Pope Pius XII

“Faith in Christ cannot be maintained pure and unalloyed when it is not protected and supported by faith in the Church. Faith in Christ and faith in the Church stand together. If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from her, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.” Pope Pius XI

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation; for their is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Truth, grace, the Sacraments: all the certain norms for our journey to God come from the Church. The Catholic Church is the extension of Jesus Christ in time and space. Outside this Body the Holy Spirit does not give life to anyone. Those who are enemies ot unity do not participate in the charity of divine life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. A Christian must fear nothing so much as to be separated from the Body of Christ. If he is separated from Christ’s Body, he is not one of His members; he is not fed by His Spirit.” Pope Paul VI

The ruin of souls is wrought by this single cause: Ignorance of those most sublime truths, so far beyond the natural understanding of the multitutde, which nonetheless must be known by all men in order that they may attain eternal salvation. We positively maintain that the will of man cannot be upright, nor his conduct good, while his intellect is the slave of crass ignorance. This We solemnly affirm: the majority of those who are condemned to eternal punishment fall into this everlasting misfortune through ignorance of the mysteries of the Faith which must necessarily be known and believed by all who belong to the Elect. Pope St. Pius X

“Since it is recognized that it is extremely rare to find men entirely devoid of religious sense, some people entertain the hope that nations, in spite of their differing religious viewpoints, may be brought to unite as brothers in the profession of certain doctrines as a common foundation of the spiritual life. Certainly, such efforts as these cannot receive the approval of Catholics, for they rest on the false opinion which regards any religion whatsoever to be more-or-less praiseworthy and good. Those who hold this opinion are in grave error; they even debase the concept of the true religion and lapse, little by little, into naturalism and atheism.” Pope Pius XI

As Christ is the head of the Church, so is the Holy Ghost her soul. ONLY those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and who profess the true Faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from the Body or, for grave reasons, been excluded by legitimate authority. It follows that those who are divided in faith or in government cannot be living in one Body such as this, and cannot be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. Pius XII

“By means of religious Indifferentism, crafty men deceitfully pretend that people can attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion, as though there could be any fellowship of light with darkness. These men conclude that not only sons of the Church but also others, however estranged they may remain from Catholic unity, are equally on the road to salvation and are able to achieve everlasting life. Words fail Us from utter HORROR in detesting and abhorring this new and terrible insult!” Pope Pius IX

 

[Saints_Alive]

Pope Francis has reaffirmed EENS.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means No Salvation Outside the Church. Always has, always will.

 

[guanophore]

If I may ask, how do you then understand this statement from Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi

“Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond.”

It seems, at least at first glance to disagree with the idea of invisible membership, no?

No, not at all. He us just saying that the claim of the Reformers, that Jesus left no visible form of leadership on earth is in error. The fact that Jesus left a visible, authorative church on earth does not negate the fact that the Church also exists on a spiritual an invisible level as well. It is not “merely” spritual, though. The Church founded by Christ is identifiable by the four Apostolic marks, which are all visible.

I have always understood VII as therefore saying that Baptism is the sign of starting a visible membership in the Church, and that as the way we reconcile the two. So Protestants are those who like pretty bad Catholics who although baptized are refusing to assent to the Church in a sense.

Yes, baptism is the visible sacrament of initiation/joining. But most Protestants don’t even think about the CC, and are taught lies about her. However, if a Protestant were to come to know that the CC was the church founded by Christ, yet refuse to enter, they could not be saved.

But at the same time, a Catholic who becomes Protestant is guilty of Apostasy while a Protestant who remains Protestant is not. Which seems to indicate there being a difference.

The ignorant cannot be charged with teh sin of apostasy, and many Catholics leave the Church not knowing what they are leaving. However, if one truly is clinging to the One Faith, then denies it, they are guilty of apostasy.

 

[Sirach2]

Actually, I have read Mystici Corporis Christi. What is your point?

As for your other question, no, unless someone comes in to full communion with the Catholic Church, their chances of salvation are slimmer. So the best chance of salvation is if one give full assent of the mind and will to the Catholic Church. Do you deny that?

P.S. Baptism is not the be all and end all of salvation. To say so is almost Protestant like. After Baptism, a believer must persevere. Important sources of Grace like the Sacrament of Confession and the Eucharist are missing in Protestant Churches. Important sources of Grace such as the Authority and guidance of the Pope is missing in Orthodox Churches. All of this seems to be swept under the carpet and you have decided to emphasize baptism as the only sacrament required for salvation?

I did not say anything of the kind. As long as you continue to impute false words and/or meanings to my posts, there will be no further discussion with you.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Did you change your opinion so quickly from this post, David?

No. That other post expands on the post I made in this thread (where I also said, “I’m sure that most of the Church’s teaching is taught infallibly…”)

I maintain that the majority of Church doctrine is proclaimed infallibly, but we cannot know for sure if any particular doctrine is actually taught this way unless the Church tells us so. And, to my knowledge, the Church has said, “Yup. That’s infallible” only once.

It’s not our place to hold a Vatican-1 checklist up to doctrine and determine if it is infallibly proclaimed. That determination can only come from the Magesterium. Otherwise, the best we can say is that we *believe *it to be infallibly proclaimed, but that is only our opinion.

For the record, I believe “no salvation outside the Church” is infallibly taught (and there are, of course, no exceptions).

 

[jwinch2]

Its worth noting that Pope Francis has quoted Paul VI multiple times on the necessity of belonging to the Church. Recently, he did so to major superiors of women’s religious communities. However, he also did so in a homily to the cardinals on the Feast of St. George.

But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: “Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy.” And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.