"no salvation except that within the Church"

[Even_So]

846 “… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Doesn’t that contradict the other quote somewhere that those who go to another church can get grafted in? Like, oh, Protestants.

 

[Even_So]

Really? We can believe any old thing? Well there are many protestants who profess to loving Jesus but believe in contraception, homosexual marriage and even abortion. Jesus founded the Catholic Church in order to pass His teachings on. I think He was pretty concerned with what we believe.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Love requires obedience.

If a couple gets married but doesn’t want kids right away, contraception is not an alternative and sex is out?

 

[Gorgias]

Who makes up the group of whom salvation awaited? Only faithful Jews or was it many nations of people.?

The Church believes that salvation is possible for all, so it can’t be the case that, from a dogmatic standpoint, we’d say that it could only have been ‘faithful Jews’.

 

[Gorgias]

If a couple gets married but doesn’t want kids right away, contraception is not an alternative and sex is out?

No; they can use Natural Family Planning as a means to continue to allow the marital act to be open to procreation, while at the same time intending to make a prayerful, prudential judgment as to the proper spacing of children throughout their marriage.

Doesn’t that contradict the other quote somewhere that those who go to another church can get grafted in? Like, oh, Protestants.

No, since it implies that those who do not know that the Church is necessary for salvation (like, oh, Protestants ) are not being addressed in that statement.

We really get in based on conscience? Sounds like go right ahead and save yourself.

No – it’s not the person who saves himself, but God who saves, through Christ, regardless the means. For those who know Christ, salvation comes through Him and Him alone. However, this does not imply that those who (through no fault of their own) do not know Christ are not thrown in the trash bin by a capricious God.

Which means infant baptism is not necessary, right?

No – in the case of infant baptism, parents stand as proxy for the child. It’s their belief – as proxy for the child’s (later-expressed explicit) belief – that makes infant baptism possible.

Atheists will not get in. They do not believe so they have rejected GOD.

You’re making a blanket statement about all atheists, right? What if they were never exposed to the Gospel of Christ? Would they still have ‘rejected God’ sufficiently to ‘not get in’ to heaven?

 

[Even_So]

No Catholic denies that a pagan in good faith will be led by God to heaven, if that pagan perseveres. Some believe explicit faith is necessary for justification though

Unless that pagan believes on JESUS (where they would no longer be pagan), they will not enjoy Heaven.

 

[Even_So]

If churches are teaching another gospel which is different from one that is taught by Christ, and reasonable diligence would be able to get you the correct answer, to remain in those churches and claiming invincible ignorance in my POV is clinging on to false hopes that it is available to them.

 

[Gorgias]

Unless that pagan believes on JESUS (where they would no longer be pagan), they will not enjoy Heaven.

So, God created all the people who lived and died before Christ – and never came in contact with the Jewish religion… and all the people who lived and died after Christ – but never came in contact with the Gospel… stricly and deterministically so that they would be damned?

So much for 1 Timothy 2:4, huh…? :nope:

 

[Even_So]

St Redemption;13095834:

I do believe that Christ is the only way, but we should not presume to state that we always know the way that he will choose to lead a person to heaven. It is entirely possible that he can incline the heart of a Muslim, perhaps without the Muslim even knowing who is involved.

Makes perfect sense. Works that way quite a bit i would think. Rats, i said i think again.

 

[Even_So]

Rephrsed It’s saying, good hope is NOT to be entertained for the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the Catholic Church.

It’s not denying that for the Catholic Church.

Rephrased, Protestantism is NOT the same true Christian religion as the Catholic Church and does NOT please God equally as the Catholic Church.

Hi Steve. Been awhile since we kinda talked…Time will tell i spose.

 

[steve_b]

Doesn’t that contradict the other quote somewhere that those who go to another church can get grafted in? Like, oh, Protestants.

Do you have the quote?

 

[Even_So]

Do you have the quote?

Steve,

the quote i tried to find i think is in the beginning of: Are Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science actually Christian? It is baptism, i think. I forgot by now what we are talking about. We are all grafted in by baptism regardless of belief maybe? If you disagree, that was prolly it.

 

[Even_So]

No; they can use Natural Family Planning as a means to continue to allow the marital act to be open to procreation, while at the same time intending to make a prayerful, prudential judgment as to the proper spacing of children throughout their marriage.

You’re making a blanket statement about all atheists, right? What if they were never exposed to the Gospel of Christ? Would they still have ‘rejected God’ sufficiently to ‘not get in’ to heaven?

But what if they do not want children?

Now you are getting specificical. From a blanket point of view, Atheist’s reject any religious teaching. If they didn’t, would we be talking about them in same manner? Do they claim to be atheistic, or just have no faith?

 

[Gorgias]

But what if they do not want children?

Your post to which I replied seems to have disappeared. So, I can’t tell whether you’re talking about Christians or non-Christians. If Christians, then Catholics believe that an intention never to have children is so antithetical to Christian marriage as to invalidate an attempt to marry validly. So, for Christians, the claim “we don’t want any children” is not possible within the context of Christian marriage.

Now you are getting specificical.

I have no idea what ‘specificical’ means.

 

[steve_b]

Steve,

the quote i tried to find i think is in the beginning of: Are Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science actually Christian? It is baptism, i think. I forgot by now what we are talking about. We are all grafted in by baptism regardless of belief maybe? If you disagree, that was prolly it.

This is the context #78

to your point, would you agree that Graft = fully incorporate into the tree it’s grafted to ?

Are protestants regardless of stripe fully incorporated (grafted) into the Catholic Church? No

Here’s why

I numbered the points of CCC 837 (all emphasis mine)

It makes 4 salient points

***"***Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, (i.e. baptised)

1. 
   *]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church
   *]together with her entire organization,
   *]who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ,
   *]who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
   
   taking that same list and applying that to validly baptised Protestants, they don’t meet the requirements for being fully incorporated “in” the Church.
   
   Here’s why
   
   Do Protestants
   1. 
      *]-]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church /-]
      *]-]together with her entire organization, /-]
      *]-] who by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, i.e. the Catholic profession of faith the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, /-]
      *]-]who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops./-]
      
      Protestants are NO on all 4 points.
      
      Ergo they are **NOT **“in” the Church.

 

[Even_So]

Your post to which I replied seems to have disappeared. So, I can’t tell whether you’re talking about Christians or non-Christians. If Christians, then Catholics believe that an intention never to have children is so antithetical to Christian marriage as to invalidate an attempt to marry validly. So, for Christians, the claim “we don’t want any children” is not possible within the context of Christian marriage.

I have no idea what ‘specificical’ means.

Just means specific. I think Tigger used it. I like to play on words.

 

[Even_So]

This is the context #78

to your point, would you agree that Graft = fully incorporate into the tree it’s grafted to ?

Are protestants regardless of stripe fully incorporated (grafted) into the Catholic Church? No

Here’s why

I numbered the points of CCC 837 (all emphasis mine)

It makes 4 salient points

***"***Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, (i.e. baptised)

1. 
   *]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church
   *]together with her entire organization,
   *]who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ,
   *]who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
   
   taking that same list and applying that to validly baptised Protestants, they don’t meet the requirements for being fully incorporated “in” the Church.
   
   Here’s why
   
   Do Protestants
   1. 
      *]-]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church /-]
      *]-]together with her entire organization, /-]
      *]-] who by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, i.e. the Catholic profession of faith the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, /-]
      *]-]who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops./-]
      
      Protestants are NO on all 4 points.
      
      Ergo they are **NOT **“in” the Church.

1. 1. 
      I am curious if I did everything asked but declared myself to be Protestant, would that still exclude me?

 

[Gorgias]

to your point, would you agree that Graft = fully incorporate into the tree it’s grafted to ?

Are protestants regardless of stripe fully incorporated (grafted) into the Catholic Church? No

Ergo they are **NOT **“in” the Church.

To be fair… you just moved the goalposts.

You set out to prove that Protestants are not “fully incorporated into the Catholic Church”, and then, after setting up your argument, concluded that Protestants are not “in the Church.” This conclusion is in error. As Lumen gentium reminds us, “those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian … [they] are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. … Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”

So, to say that they’re “not fully incorporated” into the Catholic Church is reasonable; but saying that they’re “not in the Church” is not.

 

[Gorgias]

I am curious if I did everything asked but declared myself to be Protestant, would that still exclude me?

That wouldn’t make any sense. That would be like being fully human but asking that people identify you as a daisy. Even if you had a name tag that said, “No, really… I’m a daisy!”, no one would say that you’re a flower; we’d say you were ‘Even So’…

 

[steve_b]

To be fair… you just moved the goalposts.

You set out to prove that Protestants are not “fully incorporated into the Catholic Church”, and then, after setting up your argument, concluded that Protestants are not “in the Church.” This conclusion is in error. As Lumen gentium reminds us, “those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian … [they] are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. … Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”

So, to say that they’re “not fully incorporated” into the Catholic Church is reasonable; but saying that they’re “not in the Church” is not.

Let’s test that highlighted statement

If they are “in” the Church, they can walk off the street and receive the sacraments of …oh let’s say… Penance and the Eucharist in any parish… right?

• Can Protestants confess to a Catholic priest? NO catholic.com/quickquestions/as-a-protestant-who-wishes-to-stay-focused-on-the-lord-may-i-confess-my-sins-to-a-pri
• Can Protestants receive the Eucharist? Near proximity of death. Who Can Receive Communion? | Catholic Answers

That does NOT demonstrate someone who is “in” the Chuirch …agreed?

 

[steve_b]

I am curious if I did everything asked but declared myself to be Protestant, would that still exclude me?

If you can say yes to those points, because you believe those truths, then you need to make it official, and become Catholic