No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[elvisman]

Also, many RC on here like to link to the early church fathers for theology. What about what St. Augustine wrote about the Eucharist?

“If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).

**You REALLY shouldn’t Quote St. Augustine if you don’t understand what he is saying. He was one of the mose vehement believers in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist - but his writings go high above the heads of most people, so don’**t feel too bad:

Augustine
**"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ"(Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

"What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid. 272).

Oh, and, ummm . . . the REST of the Church Fathers are UNANIMOUS about the Real Presence - so were many of the so-called "Reformers" . . . **

“Who**, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.”**
- Martin Luther on the Real Presence

 

[elvisman]

Also, many RC on here like to link to the early church fathers for theology. What about what St. Augustine wrote about the Eucharist?

Just thought I’d share a few more quotes from Augustine regarding his passionate belief in the Real Presence . . .

**"Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.” {Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p.377}

---

Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it. {Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p.387}

---

Christ is both the priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church. {Ibid, 10, 20; on p.99}

---

He took flesh from the flesh of Mary**. . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring. {Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p.20}**

---

Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body. {Ibid., 234, 2; on p.31}

---

The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side. {Sermo iii. 1-2; on p.62}

---

---

Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. {Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65}

---

Out of hatred of Christ the crowd there shed Cyprian’s blood, but today a reverential multitude gathers to drink the Blood of Christ . . . this altar . . . whereon a Sacrifice is offered to God . . . {Sermo 310, 2; cf. City of God, 8, 27, 1; on p.65}

---

He took into His hands what the faithful understand; He in some sort bore Himself when He said: This is My Body. {Enarr. 1, 10 on Ps. 33; on p.65}

---

The very first heresy was formulated when men said: “this saying is hard and who can bear it Jn 6:60]?” {Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66}

---

Had enough - or do you STILL wanna talk about Augustine not believing in the Real Presence?

 

[lutherlic]

The Christian rite!!

freedomwriter, the people here are trying to answer your questions. It is inappropriate to be evasive like this. This is a Catholic forum and you identify yourself as Catholic in your profile. We draw conclusions from that.

It is perfectly OK if you are not Catholic and wish to respectfully ask questions / state opinions, but please don’t identify yourself as Catholic.

Just to be clear, if you are Catholic then you fully accept and are obedient to the teaching authority of the Magisterium headed by the Pope in Rome.

 

[freedomwriter]

So, you’re a Protestant who merely hijacked the name Catholic.

PRECISELY what I thought . . .
You’re not a heretic for merely calling yourself Catholic and speaking against the Christ’s Church.
You actually have to have been part of the Body of Christ - the Church - to be a heretic . . .

A former catholic and not speaking against Christ. I can put whatever i want on here.

 

[freedomwriter]

freedomwriter, the people here are trying to answer your questions. It is inappropriate to be evasive like this. This is a Catholic forum and you identify yourself as Catholic in your profile. We draw conclusions from that.

It is perfectly OK if you are not Catholic and wish to respectfully ask questions / state opinions, but please don’t identify yourself as Catholic.

Just to be clear, if you are Catholic then you fully accept and are obedient to the teaching authority of the Magisterium headed by the Pope in Rome.

I am not evasive and I can put what i wish on here. I am a former catholic who has been born again. No i don’t go by the teaching of any pope but by the Written Word of God.

 

[freedomwriter]

Sorry but there are not many views when it comes to Jn 3:16 and no i am not a catholic but a born again Christian by the blood of Christ. As far as leading the faithful astray I could say the same for yourself. James 3:1 says My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement. I’m not called to offer my own opinions. I’m called to teach what God’s Word says.

 

[Brandon72]

You REALLY shouldn’t Quote St. Augustine if you don’t understand what he is saying. He was one of the mose vehement believers in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist - but his writings go high above the heads of most people, so don’t feel too bad:

Augustine
***“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God ***is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ”(Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

Really? What Augustine said there I have no beef with, because it’s what Christ said! This is my body take and eat. SYMBOLISM!! It’s bread!! If Augustine thought Jesus Christ was in the bread, how do you explain this sermon delivered September 23, 416, that is a direct contradiction to the modern Roman teaching on the doctrine of transubstantiation.

We have heard the True Master, the Divine Redeemer, the human Savior, commending to us our Ransom, His Blood. For He spake to us of His Body and Blood; He called His Body Meat, His Blood Drink. The faithful recognize the Sacrament of the faithful. But the hearers what else do they but hear? When therefore commending such Meat and such Drink He said, "Except ye shall eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, ye shall have no life in you; " (and this that He said concerning life, who else said it but the Life Itself? But that man shall have death, not life, who shall think that the Life is false), His disciples were offended, not all of them indeed, but very many, saying within themselves, "This is an hard saying, who can hear it? " But when the Lord knew this in Himself, and heard the murmurings of their thought, He answered them, thinking though uttering nothing, that they might understand that they were heard, and might cease to entertain such thoughts. What then did He answer? “Doth this offend you?” “What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?” What meaneth this? “Doth this offend you ?” “Do ye imagine that I am about to make divisions of this My Body which ye see; and to cut up My Members, and give them to you? ‘ What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before ?’” Assuredly, He who could ascend Whole could not be consumed. So then He both gave us of His Body and Blood a healthful refreshment, and briefly solved so great a question as to His Own Entireness. Let them then who eat, eat on, and them that drink, drink; let them hunger and thirst; eat Life, drink Life. That eating, is to be refreshed; but thou art in such wise refreshed, as that that whereby thou art refreshed, faileth not. That drinking, what is it but to live? Eat Life, drink Life; thou shalt have life, and the Life is Entire. But then this shall be, that is, the Body and the Blood of Christ shall be each man’s Life;** if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, “It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you,” saith He, “that believe not.” Such were they who said, “This is a hard saying, who can hear it?” It is hard, but only to the hard; that is, it is incredible, but only to the incredulous. **

Also:
“…our Lord Himself, and apostolic practice, have handed down to us a few rites in place of many (Old Testament rites), and these at once very easy to perform, most majestic in their significance, and most sacred in the observance; such, for example, as the sacrament of baptism, and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. And as soon as any one looks upon these observances he knows to what they refer, and so reveres them not in carnal bondage, but in spiritual freedom. Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage” (On Christian Doctrine, Book 3).

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Jesus is with the elect at all times, not just for 15 minutes at Sunday mass. Even Augustine believed that.

 

[elvisman]

A former catholic and not speaking against Christ. I can put whatever i want on here.

Sorry, but that’s where you’re wrong.

Of his Church, Jesus said the following:
"Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me."

---

You have stated that you’re a "former Catholic" - so you have walked away from him and are in need of returning home.

 

[elvisman]

Really? What Augustine said there I have no beef with, because it’s what Christ said! This is my body take and eat. SYMBOLISM!! It’s bread!! If Augustine thought Jesus Christ was in the bread, how do you explain this sermon delivered September 23, 416, that is a direct contradiction to the modern Roman teaching on the doctrine of transubstantiation.

We have heard the True Master, the Divine Redeemer, the human Savior, commending to us our Ransom, His Blood. For He spake to us of His Body and Blood; He called His Body Meat, His Blood Drink. The faithful recognize the Sacrament of the faithful. But the hearers what else do they but hear? When therefore commending such Meat and such Drink He said, "Except ye shall eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, ye shall have no life in you; " (and this that He said concerning life, who else said it but the Life Itself? But that man shall have death, not life, who shall think that the Life is false), His disciples were offended, not all of them indeed, but very many, saying within themselves, "This is an hard saying, who can hear it? " But when the Lord knew this in Himself, and heard the murmurings of their thought, He answered them, thinking though uttering nothing, that they might understand that they were heard, and might cease to entertain such thoughts. What then did He answer? “Doth this offend you?” “What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?” What meaneth this? “Doth this offend you ?” “Do ye imagine that I am about to make divisions of this My Body which ye see; and to cut up My Members, and give them to you? ‘ What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before ?’” Assuredly, He who could ascend Whole could not be consumed. So then He both gave us of His Body and Blood a healthful refreshment, and briefly solved so great a question as to His Own Entireness. Let them then who eat, eat on, and them that drink, drink; let them hunger and thirst; eat Life, drink Life. That eating, is to be refreshed; but thou art in such wise refreshed, as that that whereby thou art refreshed, faileth not. That drinking, what is it but to live? Eat Life, drink Life; thou shalt have life, and the Life is Entire. But then this shall be, that is, the Body and the Blood of Christ shall be each man’s Life;** if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, “It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you,” saith He, “that believe not.” Such were they who said, “This is a hard saying, who can hear it?” It is hard, but only to the hard**; that is, it is incredible, but only to the incredulous.

Also:
“…our Lord Himself, and apostolic practice, have handed down to us a few rites in place of many (Old Testament rites), and these at once very easy to perform, most majestic in their significance, and most sacred in the observance; such, for example, as the sacrament of baptism, and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. And as soon as any one looks upon these observances he knows to what they refer, and so reveres them not in carnal bondage, but in spiritual freedom. Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage” (On Christian Doctrine, Book 3).

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Jesus is with the elect at all times, not just for 15 minutes at Sunday mass. Even Augustine believed that.

**Again - you shouldn’t quote Augustine to try to prove your position if you DON’T understand what he wrote.

These quotes ALL point to his adamant belief in the Real Presence. It has gone completely over your head, as many of hos writings go over the heads of those who just don’t get it.

When he is quoting John 6 and speaking of those who can’t believe in the Real Presence (which I have highlighted in Red, above) - he is speaking of YOU. Read it again, very carefully. He’s not denying the Real Presence - he’s supporting it and condemning those who deny it as hard-headed and weak in the Spirit.

**For the Catholic, Jesus is indeed always present - but he is more intimitely present for us who heed his command to consume his flesh and blood. **
Just as the Jews consumed the flesh of the sacrificial lamb - we, too are commanded to eat the flesh of the Paschal Lamb, Jesus.

 

[freedomwriter]

Sorry, but that’s where you’re wrong.

Of his Church, Jesus said the following:
"Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me."

---

You have stated that you’re a "former Catholic" - so you have walked away from him and are in need of returning home.

No such thing elvis. Again I am a born again catholic. I have had a relationship with Christ for over 11 yrs. I am with Christ. No need for me to return. Sorry to say but catholics will probably have me banned for saying I am a born again catholic. Thats ok. Still doesn’t change the fact that I have a relationship with Christ and not religion. But I it doesn’t surprise me that catholics are trying to have me banned for speaking the truth. One day we will all appear before Christ and will have to give an account of what we have done.

 

[Brandon72]

**Again - you *shouldn’t ***quote Augustine to try to prove your position if you DON’T understand what he wrote.

These quotes ALL point to his adamant belief in the Real Presence. It has gone completely over your head, as many of hos writings go over the heads of those who just don’t get it.

When he is quoting John 6 and speaking of those who can’t believe in the Real Presence (which I have highlighted in Red, above) - he is speaking of YOU. Read it again, very carefully. He’s not denying the Real Presence - he’s supporting it and condemning those who deny it as hard-headed and weak in the Spirit.

For the Catholic, Jesus is indeed always present - but he is more intimitely present for us who heed his command to consume his flesh and blood.
Just as the Jews consumed the flesh of the sacrificial lamb - we, too are commanded to eat the flesh of the Paschal Lamb, Jesus.

**
if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, “It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you,” saith He, “that believe not.” Such were they who said, “This is a hard saying, who can hear it?” It is hard, but only to the hard; that is, it is incredible, but only to the incredulous. **

The ones that believe not, are the ones who thought Jesus literally meant they need to eat his flesh!! It’s staring you right in the face! Augustine tells you it’s eaten spiritually, not fleshly. The flesh doesn’t profit a thing. It’s not the flesh of Christ we are eating or the literal blood of Christ we are drinking.

Augustine (Faustus 6.5): “while we consider it no longer a duty to offer sacrifices, we recognize sacrifices as part of the mysteries of Revelation, by which the things prophesied were foreshadowed. For they were our examples, and in many and various ways they all pointed to the one sacrifice which we now commemorate. Now that this sacrifice has been revealed, and has been offered in due time, sacrifice is no longer binding as an act of worship, while it retains its** symbolical authority**.”

Symbolic Symbolic Symbolic. When he mentions “we now commemorate”, that means we do it in memory of Christ, which is what Jesus commanded us to do! It’s very easy to understand Augustine’s point here.

Even a Pope agrees with me:
Pope Gelasius of Rome in his work against Eutyches and Nestorius:

The sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing, because by it we are made partakers of the divine-nature.** Yet the substance or nature of the bread and wine does not cease. And assuredly the image and the similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the performance of the mysteries.**

 

[Nicea325]

I am not evasive and I can put what i wish on here. I am a former catholic who has been born again. No i don’t go by the teaching of any pope but by the Written Word of God.

Catholics are also born-again,but apparently you never paid attention when you were taught that simple fact. As for the pope? He is a servnt of the church and Christ and not above God’s Word. The Written Word of God is not to be separated from Christ Church.

 

[Nicea325]

You REALLY

shouldn’t Quote St. Augustine if you don’t understand what he is saying. He was one of the mose vehement believers in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist - but his writings go high above the heads of most people, so don’t feel too bad:

Augustine
***“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God ***is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ”(Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

Really? What Augustine said there I have no beef with, because it’s what Christ said! This is my body take and eat. SYMBOLISM!! It’s bread!! If Augustine thought Jesus Christ was in the bread, how do you explain this sermon delivered September 23, 416, that is a direct contradiction to the modern Roman teaching on the doctrine of transubstantiation.

We have heard the True Master, the Divine Redeemer, the human Savior, commending to us our Ransom, His Blood. For He spake to us of His Body and Blood; He called His Body Meat, His Blood Drink. The faithful recognize the Sacrament of the faithful. But the hearers what else do they but hear? When therefore commending such Meat and such Drink He said, "Except ye shall eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, ye shall have no life in you; " (and this that He said concerning life, who else said it but the Life Itself? But that man shall have death, not life, who shall think that the Life is false), His disciples were offended, not all of them indeed, but very many, saying within themselves, "This is an hard saying, who can hear it? " But when the Lord knew this in Himself, and heard the murmurings of their thought, He answered them, thinking though uttering nothing, that they might understand that they were heard, and might cease to entertain such thoughts. What then did He answer? “Doth this offend you?” “What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?” What meaneth this? “Doth this offend you ?” “Do ye imagine that I am about to make divisions of this My Body which ye see; and to cut up My Members, and give them to you? ‘ What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before ?’” Assuredly, He who could ascend Whole could not be consumed. So then He both gave us of His Body and Blood a healthful refreshment, and briefly solved so great a question as to His Own Entireness. Let them then who eat, eat on, and them that drink, drink; let them hunger and thirst; eat Life, drink Life. That eating, is to be refreshed; but thou art in such wise refreshed, as that that whereby thou art refreshed, faileth not. That drinking, what is it but to live? Eat Life, drink Life; thou shalt have life, and the Life is Entire. But then this shall be, that is, the Body and the Blood of Christ shall be each man’s Life;** if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, “It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you,” saith He, “that believe not.” Such were they who said, “This is a hard saying, who can hear it?” It is hard, but only to the hard; that is, it is incredible, but only to the incredulous. **

Also:
“…our Lord Himself, and apostolic practice, have handed down to us a few rites in place of many (Old Testament rites), and these at once very easy to perform, most majestic in their significance, and most sacred in the observance; such, for example, as the sacrament of baptism, and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. And as soon as any one looks upon these observances he knows to what they refer, and so reveres them not in carnal bondage, but in spiritual freedom. Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage” (On Christian Doctrine, Book 3).

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Jesus is with the elect at all times, not just for 15 minutes at Sunday mass. Even Augustine believed that.

Symbolism? WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

I challenge you to provide the overwhelming historical records from the early church and early church fathers explicitly stating the belief in the Real Presence is a usurpation of Christ?

If Augustine thought Jesus Christ was in the bread, how do you explain this sermon delivered September 23, 416, that is a direct contradiction to the modern Roman teaching on the doctrine of transubstantiation.

WRONG AGAIN! It is who is in direct contradiction of what St.Augustine believed and taught. He did not believe in your modern belief of a symbolic Eucharist. You as so many Protestants simply want to protray the early church fathers as Protestant and it is absurd.

 

[Dokimas]

Really? Where does it say that he is not offered eternally? Let’s examine very carefully what Heb. 10:10-12 says:
v. 10 “By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
The Catholic Church taught this to the world with the guidance of the Holy Spirit from the very beginning.

v. 11 “Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins.”
That’s why the sacrifice that Jesus made is re-presented during the Mass - just like Jesus commanded* (“Do this* in memory of me”).
Christ’s Church would NEVER offer anything else - not a bull or goat or lamb. NOTHING but Christ.

v.12 “But this one (Jesus) offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God”
As I pointed out to you before - the Bible tells us that he is eternally present before the Father in heaven as a perfect sacrifice - the slain Lamb before the foundations of the world (1 Pet. 1:19-20, Rev. 13:8).
To reject this is heresy, friend - pure and simple.

I agree with those wonderful verses. In fact they support what I was saying. How’d you miss that?

As one of those verses mentioned that the priest regularly offers sacrifices, because Jesus sacrificed Himself once, there is NO need to offer Him again each week.

 

[elvisman]

**if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, “It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you,” saith He, “that believe not.” Such were they who said, “This is a hard saying, who can hear it?” It is hard, but only to the hard; that is, it is incredible, but only to the incredulous. **

The ones that believe not, are the ones who thought Jesus literally meant they need to eat his flesh!! It’s staring you right in the face! Augustine tells you it’s eaten spiritually, not fleshly. The flesh doesn’t profit a thing. It’s not the flesh of Christ we are eating or the literal blood of Christ we are drinking.

Oy vey – you but you do NOT understand.

In John 6:63, Jesus told the crowd that it is the spirit that gives life – the flesh profits nothing.
He WASN’T speaking of HIS flesh. HIS flesh profits us EVERYTHING. It was by the sacrifice on the cross of his flesh and blood that we are redeemed.

He was talking about those who thought in worldly terms – not spiritual terms. that is why he said 2 verses later:
"As I have told you, no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father."
The plain fact is – YOU don’t get it because it has not been revealed to you by the Father.

Augustine (Faustus 6.5): “while we consider it no longer a duty to offer sacrifices, we recognize sacrifices as part of the mysteries of Revelation, by which the things prophesied were foreshadowed. For they were our examples, and in many and various ways they all pointed to the one sacrifice which we now commemorate. Now that this sacrifice has been revealed, and has been offered in due time, sacrifice is no longer binding as an act of worship, while it retains its** symbolical authority**.”

Symbolic Symbolic Symbolic. When he mentions “we now commemorate”, that means we do it in memory of Christ, which is what Jesus commanded us to do! It’s very easy to understand Augustine’s point here.

From WHERE do you get this line of thinking?? We DOcommemorate Jesus’ sacrifice at every mass. Nobody is denying that. the problem is that you take Augustine’s words as “merely commemorating”. I gave you several verses from Augustine’s letters and homilies that EXPLICITLY proclaim the Real Presence. Do you honestly believe that he was a liar or schizophrenic?? Why do you think he would completely contradict himself about this belief?

**Like I told you before – you really shouldn’t quote from Augustine or Aquinas unless you know what you’re talking about and understand what they wrote. You obviously *don’t *. . **.

 

[elvisman]

Even a Pope agrees with me:
Pope Gelasius of Rome in his work against Eutyches and Nestorius:

The sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing, because by it we are made partakers of the divine-nature.** Yet the substance or nature of the bread and wine does not cease. And assuredly the image and the similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the performance of the mysteries.**

WHHAAAT???
Do you realize what you’re saying?? Did you even bother to read the quote??
He said, “The sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing.”**
“Divine”** means that it is divinity itself – GOD.**

Secondly – the Church has** ALWAYS **taught that the appearance of Bread and wine REMAIN.

Lastly - let me give you some advice:
Please – do your homework before you continue this conversation.

 

[elvisman]

I agree with those wonderful verses. In fact they support what I was saying. How’d you miss that?

As one of those verses mentioned that the priest regularly offers sacrifices, because Jesus sacrificed Himself once, there is NO need to offer Him again each week.

And you have proven once again that you have no grasp of the reality of eternity . . .

Jesus doesn’t offer himself once a week. He does it ETERNALLY.
**The Bible says he’s been doing it long before the world was even conceived (Rev. 13:8). **
I’m sorry you don’t get it . . .

 

[Dokimas]

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm

"*Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son. We, your people and your ministers, recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into glory; and from the many gifts you have given us we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.

**Look with favor on these offerings **and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek.

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.] *"
Is this not what is said in a mass?

 

[Dokimas]

And you have proven once again that you have no grasp of the reality of eternity . . .

Jesus doesn’t offer himself once a week. He does it ETERNALLY.
The Bible says he’s been doing it long before the world was even conceived (Rev. 13:8).
I’m sorry you don’t get it . . .

I NEVER said Jesus offers Himself once a week. The CC offers Him each mass according to my link in the last post I posted.

What I said was quite clear, IMO. Sorry you had trouble understanding what I said.

 

[elvisman]

I NEVER said Jesus offers Himself once a week. The CC offers Him each mass according to my link in the last post I posted.

What I said was quite clear, IMO. Sorry you had trouble understanding what I said.

Jesus doesn’t offer himself once a week and neither does his Church.

There is a mass being said somewhere on earth 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a years. He is CONSTANTLY being offered before the Father on our behalf in heaven - and it reflects in every Catholic Church around the globe.

His will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.