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Acts831
Guest
Other than God, who has “full knowledge” of anything?
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OKAstro
Guest
This seems to be clearer than all of the responses
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
"Salvation outside the Church
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).
Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
***However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. ***
(see link above for full text and church father’s quotes)
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
"Salvation outside the Church
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).
Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
***However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. ***
(see link above for full text and church father’s quotes)
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IMFORGOD
Guest
Yes and not of the words of man but a reference from the Bible please.
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IMFORGOD
Guest
Did GOD say that salvation is just for Catholics? NO For GOD so loved THE WORLD that HE gave His only begotten SON that WHOSOEVER believeth in HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life. There is said that GOD loves the world, Not just Catholics
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Acts831
Guest
So it doesn’t matter if a person is Catholic or not?
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IMFORGOD
Guest
Like I have said before I honestly believe that as long as you have asked JESUS in your heart and become baptized you are saved. Now as for messages I believe the Catholic church delivers the best for messages,Although they lack other teachings and here I Can’t get any answers for my questions on that!
I do think that to become Catholic is ideal and JESUS did say that he has other sheep that we know not about so therefore that could mean other religions.But being Catholic is best
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Emerite
Guest
Yes, Harry 1941, your statement is partly true. There is salvation outside the Church for non-Catholics who lead a Christian life, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict, himself), which states, at No. 847, “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”There is salvation outside the Church, even if a Christian use to a member of the Catholic Church. So long as the Christian believes and obeys the Ten Commandments of God, and does so for God they saved.
Harry
Love and charity to all.
However, the Catechism further states, at Page 224, Nos. 846 and 847, “… “they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it?” This applies to those who “used to be a member of the Catholic Church”, and to anyone who is non-Catholic and realizes the Catholic Church, the original Christian church, is the one, true church and fails to enter the Catholic Church.
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davidv
Guest
Yes, as can anyone who loves God and Neighbor.
I don’t believe you understand what you read in the CCC. If Luther repented of his sins, God in His mercy would forgive Him.
You want to be Catholic because you want the fullness of truth. And you want access to all of grace that is available in the Sacraments of the Church that you need to become holy
Because, some through no fault of their own, are not official members of the Church .
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davidv
Guest
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OKAstro
Guest
David - Look at my post 122. It is clear that unless Luther repented, returned to the CC, and received the sacrament of penance, the Church would say he did NOT achieve salvation. As for as I know, he never did.
It seems that you do not believe that being in full communion with the CC is necessary for salvation (except for those who are ignorant of the CC or of God). Luther was clearly aware of the CC and rejected her teachings - heresy. You are twisting the CCC’s clear teaching on this
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davidv
Guest
How could you possibly know this? Do you have access to Luther’s soul?
What do you mean by salvation?
How do you know that I am the one twisting and not yourself?
I believe you have misinterpreted the CCC based on a different meaning of Salvation than the Church uses in this particular context.
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OKAstro
Guest
Since you seem to know how the “Church uses it in this particular context”, you define it.
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davidv
Guest
Nice dodge. Please address my other questions in the post.
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OKAstro
Guest
OK - Salvation to me is the attainment of everlasting life in the Church Triumphant. No go ahead and tear it apart.
Maybe you can answer this. A life long Catholic decides he cannot accept certain basic CC teachings (real presence, confession to a priest, whatever). He leaves the church and joins a Baptist Church or a Methodist church, and never returns to the CC nor receives anymore sacraments. Will he receive salvation? yes or no
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davidv
Guest
Thank you. No tearing apart needed.
I cannot answer. This judgement is reserved for Jesus alone. All I can know is that if one dies in the state of grace one will join the Church Triumpant. If not, they have chosen eternal separation from God.
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OKAstro
Guest
I know you can’t, but the CCC says salvation would not be possible in this case. There’s no other possible interpretation - the text is very straight forward
The_Reginator
Active member
I was just catching up on about 5 pages of this thread. I noticed that you (and one or two others) have asked this kind of question a number of times.
Why become Catholic?
It makes our Christian life easier.
We receive the saving power of more graces. Through special prayers and devotions, for example.
If we are faithful to the teachings of the Church in our lives than we can shorten our time in Purgatory.
We especially are helped through the sacraments: Chiefly Holy Communion and Penance.
Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his apostles. Todays priests are only priests via Apostolic Succession.
In the Catholic Church we participate in a real live miracle at each and every Mass. Since God dwells outside of time, when the bread and wine are consecrated we are (re)present at the foot of the cross. The bread and wine are physically changed into the very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus!
We join the Heavenly Hosts as we can adore our Lord. While they gaze on him in Heaven, we adore Him as He is veiled in the form of the Blessed Sacrament. No protestants have access to Jesus so closely. Neither can they consume Him as He instructed in John 6.
There are many, many reasons to belong to the Church He instituted.
Why would anyone not want to be in the very presence (physical presence, not just spiritual) of the Lord of the universe.
Catholics get taught the true interpretation of sacred scripture, not just some individual’s ideas.
As Catholics we are encouraged to ask for the prayers of not only our friends and relatives, but also all holy men and women: the saints in heaven. We know of and practice the Communion of the Saints.
We learn to know the Mother of Jesus and how she has visited the earth since biblical times. Jesus still listens to her, just as he did while on earth.
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AnneElliot
Guest
The authoritative declarations of the Catholic Church are not the mere “words of man” but the handing on of the Revelation received by the Apostles from Jesus Christ. Our Lord told St. Peter, as He gave Him the Office (of Pope) symbolized by the giving of the keys, that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in Heaven, and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven (Matthew 16:19). As a Catholic, you ought to refrain from casually calling the teachings of the Church the “words of man”. The Bible was written by holy men under Divine inspiration; and the Bible was inspired by the same God who inspires our Holy Father (the keeper of the keys, the successor of the Apostle Peter).
There are plenty of references from the Sacred Scriptures which support the Catholic Dogma, “No Salvation Outside the Church”.
As recorded in the Sacred Scriptures… did Jesus found one Church, or many?
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AnneElliot
Guest
This has got to be one of the worst reasons for doing anything… ever! I’m not Catholic because I think it makes my Christian life easier. I’m Catholic because Catholicism is TRUE!
Christian life is not about feeling good, making things easier, etc. Christian life is about participating in the life of Jesus Christ Who is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. (“The Way which you must follow, the Truth you must believe, the Life for which you must hope… the Way imperishable, the Truth infallible, the Life everlasting… the straightest Way, the highest Truth, the true Life…”)
It’s about TRUTH.
Not feelings. Not abilities. Not preferences. Etc.
If someone asks you why you are Catholic, the first words out of your mouth ought to be because Catholicism is TRUE! Truth matters. There is no point to being Catholic if Catholicism is not true.
There are 10 million reasons to be Catholic, but the only reason that matters is that Catholicism is the truth.
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Deconi
Guest
Many ECFs and Popes have already spoken to the ways of salvation known ONLY to God that may be outside the scope of The Catholic Church! Multitudes rely on that truth as justification or validation of arguments about those OUTSIDE The Catholic Church.
This is grave!
We know what we have been given! We are limited to that, but it was given so that THERE IS NO GUESS WORK as to where salvation can be found on this earth, if one was looking for it!
Outside The Catholic Church, as we have been revealed in Scriptures and TEACHING, there is no salvation.
This WHY every Catholic, at every Mass - intensified during All Souls week -, PRAY FOR EVERY SOUL, DEAD, LIVING, or to come!..as well as for each other.
For Catholics who HARBOUR notions about salvation outside The Catholic Church, it is the realm of the unknown for a reason; ONLY God knows, and there is absolutely no way to conclude one way or the other!!
A man can be born, live a righteous life in the jungle, never hear about Jesus and His Gospel, die, and still go to Hell. We have absolutely no way of knowing for sure which ‘direction’ he goes! None. Zip. Nada!
The only INDICATION is what The Catholic Church have decreed regarding ‘Baptism of desire’ and ‘Invincible Ignorance’! These are not assurances but illumination of the scope of The Church.
This is grave!
We know what we have been given! We are limited to that, but it was given so that THERE IS NO GUESS WORK as to where salvation can be found on this earth, if one was looking for it!
Outside The Catholic Church, as we have been revealed in Scriptures and TEACHING, there is no salvation.
This WHY every Catholic, at every Mass - intensified during All Souls week -, PRAY FOR EVERY SOUL, DEAD, LIVING, or to come!..as well as for each other.
For Catholics who HARBOUR notions about salvation outside The Catholic Church, it is the realm of the unknown for a reason; ONLY God knows, and there is absolutely no way to conclude one way or the other!!
A man can be born, live a righteous life in the jungle, never hear about Jesus and His Gospel, die, and still go to Hell. We have absolutely no way of knowing for sure which ‘direction’ he goes! None. Zip. Nada!
The only INDICATION is what The Catholic Church have decreed regarding ‘Baptism of desire’ and ‘Invincible Ignorance’! These are not assurances but illumination of the scope of The Church.
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