No Salvation Outside The Church?

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Then what do you mean? Am I a mind reader?
Members of the Church are those who have been validly baptized and profess the true faith.

Parish registration is not a requirement.
Yes and No.
Yes for an adult in formation to be baptised Catholic. No for infants (though for a Catholic infant the profession is made by the parent on behalf of the infant) and any other validly baptised adult.
For any infant (validly) baptized, the profession of faith by the parents is sufficient. There is still a profession of faith.
 
Please do so - I am anxious to know the true position of the CC on this, because no one except Anne has provided official CCC teaching to back up their position
This is just plain wrong. Have you understood anything that other Catholics have posted?
 
Members of the Church are those who have been validly baptized and profess the true faith.
Where does the Church define that this is what it means?
Parish registration is not a requirement.

For any infant (validly) baptized, the profession of faith by the parents is sufficient. There is still a profession of faith.
What about valid non-catholic baptism?
 
This is just plain wrong. Have you understood anything that other Catholics have posted?
It’s not entirely wrong.

Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name.
(I can list numerous Catholics who are in Heaven, by name. 😉 )

Others have asserted that St. Paul claims persons outside the Church can be saved, yet have provided no Scriptural reference stating this.

etc.
 
Where does the Church define that this is what it means?
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis #22 “Only those are to be accounted really members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism and profess the true faith, and have not cut themselves off from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed therefrom, for very grave crimes, by the legitimate authority”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei # 43 “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.”

etc.
What about valid non-catholic baptism?
They are ‘Catholic’ until they embrace heresy and cut themselves off from the true faith. (thus, children validly baptized in non-Catholic churches are really Catholic)
 
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson’s Disease and Alzheimer’s Disease who doesn’t even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?
holly,
Judging the salvation of other christians is a bumpy street…
Mt.7:1-5, Lu.6:37, Rom.2:1-5 See Rom.2:11 also. 🙂

God bless,
bluelake
 
It’s not entirely wrong.

Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name. (I can list numerous Catholics who are in Heaven, by name. 😉 )
So? What does this prove? That we don’t have the mind of God? That our knowledge is limited? That we are instructed to not judge the enternal fate of others?
Others have asserted that St. Paul claims persons outside the Church can be saved, yet have provided no Scriptural reference stating this.

etc.
This is the same argument that atheits use to claim the is no God. It is a bogus argument.
 
It’s a terrible horrific death that Jesus went through for just a few select people that think they’re special. Some Catholics here sound more like Calvinists. As a matter of fact, they have the same mind. Limited atonement for those that subscribe to THEIR beliefs only. The rest of the Christian body of Christ is condemned to eternal flames because of the prouncements of humans. What a shame. What a sham.
Shall we keep in mind that Jesus Christ died for all sinners. Jesus does not show favoritism. Rom.2:11
My personal opinion is God knew how we would behave, so he blessed us with many Different Chrisristian denominations where we can worship Him. Jesus saves , not churches.

God bless,
bluelake
 
So? What does this prove? That we don’t have the mind of God? That our knowledge is limited? That we are instructed to not judge the enternal fate of others?
While the Church does not dare define who is (or may be) in Hell, she has not hesitated to declare Saints. We know, infallibly, that there are certain persons who are in Heaven. The Church has never canonized a non-Catholic. That was the point.
This is the same argument that atheits use to claim the is no God. It is a bogus argument.
Atheists say that since St. Paul doesn’t reference salvation outside the Church in the Scriptures that God doesn’t exist? :confused: How does that argument work?
 
It’s not entirely wrong.

Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name.
(I can list numerous Catholics who are in Heaven, by name. 😉 )

Others have asserted that St. Paul claims persons outside the Church can be saved, yet have provided no Scriptural reference stating this.

etc.
Don’t you mean non-believers? 🙂
God looks on the heart of man. 'Walk worthy according to His word. ’
We are not to judge others. Mt.7;1-5,
Rom.5:1-5 We are justified by faith, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless,
bluelake
 
So - I would join because it’s harder, even though I could be saved staying riight where I am. That makes no sense at all.
You are right, it does not. It is much harder to be saved apart from the Church founded by Christ. He set up the church to be the Body through which saving grace flows. Those who refuse to come to Him in His One Body, the Church, deprive themselves of sanctifying grace, which makes it harder to be saved.

One who “stays” where they are when they have only a fraction of the revealed Truth God has given us is taking the wide and easy road which leads to perdition.
Code:
I have been following the discourse between you and Anne, and while she has provided quote after quote from the CCC and various Popes to backup her position, you and others who have disagreed have provided zero/zilch/nada in the way of official CC teaching to backup your position.
Ok.
Code:
I am very interested in the Truth regarding this topic, and would appreciate it if you would provide some evidence to backup your positions.
I think Anne has done a fine job, and though we understand “church” differently, I have no reason to refute what she has to say.

She is a fundamentalist Catholic. I sojourned for many years among fundamentalists, and I understand how it is.
 
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis #22 “Only those are to be accounted really members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism and profess the true faith, and have not cut themselves off from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed therefrom, for very grave crimes, by the legitimate authority”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei # 43 “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.”

etc.

They are ‘Catholic’ until they embrace heresy and cut themselves off from the true faith. (thus, children validly baptized in non-Catholic churches are really Catholic)
 
It’s not entirely wrong.

Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name.
(I can list numerous Catholics who are in Heaven, by name. 😉 )

Others have asserted that St. Paul claims persons outside the Church can be saved, yet have provided no Scriptural reference stating this.

etc.
I think you are mistaken, Anne. I dont’ think anyone here has asserted either of these things. I think these are figments of your imagination.
 
They are ‘Catholic’ until they embrace heresy and cut themselves off from the true faith. (thus, children validly baptized in non-Catholic churches are really Catholic)
This is not true, Anne. Most of our separated brethren embrace heresy unwittingly, and therefore, do not suffer the penalty of mortal sin, being ignorant of the true faith.

Further, unwittingly embracing errors in doctrine does not invalidate baptism.
 
Shall we keep in mind that Jesus Christ died for all sinners. Jesus does not show favoritism. Rom.2:11
My personal opinion is God knew how we would behave, so he blessed us with many Different Chrisristian denominations where we can worship Him. Jesus saves , not churches.

God bless,
bluelake
We are not talking about “favoritism” here blue. Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH, and there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. God did not “bless us” with division and disunity. These are expressly against His will for unity,and excuses for refusal of the authority He has appointed. The salvation of Jesus is in no way, at any time separated from His One Body, the Church.
 
This is just plain wrong. Have you understood anything that other Catholics have posted?
I’ve read each one David - I cannot recall any that provided official CC teachings to backup their points. I’m not interested in your opinions - I’m looking for official CC teaching - you must have some to refute Anne, right - why don’t you provide them?
 
It’s not entirely wrong.

Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name.
(I can list numerous Catholics who are in Heaven, by name. 😉 )

Others have asserted that St. Paul claims persons outside the Church can be saved, yet have provided no Scriptural reference stating this.

etc.
Abraham was justified by faith. Is Abe in Heaven? Was Abraham a Catholic?
 
St. Paul does not say that they can be saved without being members of the Church. Just because God does not hold an ignorant man accountable for the sin of infidelity to a faith which he knew nothing about, does not mean that man is thereby saved. His other sins are still upon him, even if it is only the stain of Original Sin.
You have totally missed the point of St. Paul’s words.
God calls all men to the Church. If they honestly seek God, they will have the opportunity to enter the Church.
You comment does not explain anything about the relevant theological issues involved.

First, we must agree that it is a matter of the faith (de fide) that “membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation.” The problem here is that your posts do not reflect a correct understanding of the foregoing proposition.

The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept, but also a necessity of means, as Pius IX referred to the Catholic Church as the only Ark of salvation.

“The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In special circumstances, namely in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by the desire (votum) for the same. This need not be expressly (explicite) present, but can also be included in the moral readiness faithfully to fulfill the will of God (votum implicitum). In this manner also those who are in point of fact outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.” [my emphasis] (See Dr. Ludwig Ott: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

Alongside the Tradition of the necessity for membership of the Church was, from the earliest times, a complimentary Tradition that expounded another aspect of the Church and salvation.

That is, the earliest Christian writers reflected on the biblical narrative of the “pagan” Cornelius who, the Acts of the Apostles tell us, was “an upright and God fearing man” even before baptism. “Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were “God-fearing” people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault, on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. St. Ambrose and St. Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions.” (Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.: The Catholic Catechism)
The necessity of baptism and the theories of ‘baptism of desire/baptism of blood’ are for another thread.
Actually these matters are most relevant to the subject of the Church and salvation. You are too quick to arbitrarily dismiss pertinent facts.

That is, by the 12th century it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some “invincible obstacle stands in the way” of his baptism and entrance into the Church. (Cf. Fr. Hardon)

St. Thomas Aquinas also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.
 
Members of the Church are those who have been validly baptized and profess the true faith.

Parish registration is not a requirement.
Membership of the Church has three conditions: The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the Confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church.

Pope Pius XII, in Mystici Corporis Christi explained membership in the Church as follows: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.” (Par. 22)

According to the declaration by Pius XII, the three necessary conditions for membership of the Church are (1) Valid reception of the Sacrament of Baptism; (2) the profession of the true Faith; and (3) the participation in the Communioin of the Church. By the fulfilment of these three conditions one subjects oneself to the threefold office of the Church: the sacerdotal office (Baptism), the teaching office (Confession of the Faith), and the pastoral office (obedience to the Church authority). See Fundamental of Catholic Dogma
 
Jesus did not leave any book behind when He ascended into heaven. He DID leave behind one thing though: HIS CHURCH.

“The written word of God” is what His Church recorded from the oral Traditions of the apostles. The bible is a Catholic book. It cannot interpret itself.
The Holy Spirit is the only guide. The Holy Spirit works through God’s Church.
The only reason we have ‘denominations’ nowadays is because mere mortals took it upon themselves to interpret the bible, under the impression that the Holy Spirit was guiding them rather than guiding the Church that God gave us.
No Salvation Outside the Church
Means:
  • The church is giving a clarion call to everyone to come and be saved
  • Beware of those who preach a salvation other than that preached by the church
  • Many false prophets (antichrists) will try to deceive and mislead people as already foretold by our Lord
Does NOT mean:
  • Those who are not members of the church are damned (in fact church has never specified who are the damned. It only talks of how to be saved)
 
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