No Salvation Outside The Church?

[guanophore]

It appears that some people who are formally outside the Church are yet in the Church spiritually, having received the grace of Christ, but may know nothing explicitly about Christ and His Church while alive on earth. In fact, they may outwardly reject the Church.

Yes, I think this is true. However, I don’t think they reject the Church, only their misperceptions of the Church. If they understood, they would join. So many of our separated brethren have embraced heresies unwittingly, and have been misinformed about the Church, or fed downright lies. They love Jesus, and want to serve Him with all their heart, but are prevented from knowing Him in His Church.

 

[JM3]

Give thought to this:

“He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.” All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.”

Also from Lumen Gentium (14)

 

[guanophore]

Yes the many hundreds of prophecies but it’s greater than that. It lays the foundation of faith for all generations to come. It is God’s word.

What is the “It” you are referring to here? What lays the foundation of faith?

How did I qualify myself as one taught by an apostle? I only know what I do from reading  and studying scripture. I am sure of my faith and able to defend it. Talking to JW’s will force you to know what you believe and why.

What you seem to be saying is that you taught yourself from books. How does that equate to being taught by an Apostle?

I do not know what you mean  by I think I’ve gone the distance intended for me? I t would take me a very long time to write lengthy dissertations for all the verses presented. My time is short and my typing ability limited. And sometimes I think it’s better not  to give a response.

Your opinions are not on par wtih the disciples of the Apostles. I am not even sure you have read their writings.

 

[Pitcharan]

Yes, I think this is true. However, I don’t think they reject the Church, only their misperceptions of the Church. If they understood, they would join. So many of our separated brethren have embraced heresies unwittingly, and have been misinformed about the Church, or fed downright lies. They love Jesus, and want to serve Him with all their heart, but are prevented from knowing Him in His Church.

I mingle extensively with christians of all denominations as well as from non-denominational churches. These are my observations:

• There are many non-catholics, who are cent percent catholics at heart even in their Marian belief, but yet officially members of another church
• There are Nicodemus like non-catholics who will attend our evening mass on Sundays after attending their own service in the morning
• There are excellent true christians among catholics and non-catholics, who rarely come to church but never criticise church goers. They radiate Christ in their life and are absolutely free from denominational hang-ups
• There are catholics who are rabidly critical of our own church but would never give up membership, merely to enjoy burial rights and education / employment opportunities.
• There are catholics who are as bad as heretics
• There are rabid heretics among non-catholics
• There are both catholics and non-catholics genuinely unsure of where the truth lies

 

[Deconi]

How about dealing directly with the issues? What a novel idea!!

Also, I noticed Anne has been avoiding my posts. There are several posts that have been avoided, but the posts in question will magically re-appear, several times.

Now, tell us what you think Pope John Paul II is saying here, and how does your own understanding of “No salvation outside the Church” agree or disagree with any of the statements made by the pope?

“This affirmation of the Savior’s “uniqueness” derives from the Lord’s own words. He stated that he came “to give his own life in ransom for the many” (Mk 10:45), that is, for humanity, as St. Paul explains when he writes: “One died for all” (2 Cor 5:14; cf. Rom 5:18). Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life. No other mediator has been established by God as Savior. The unique value of the sacrifice of the cross must always be acknowledged in the destiny of every man. …

"For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10).

"It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. … In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church.

"… Religions can exercise a positive influence on the destiny of those who belong to them and follow their guidance in a sincere spirit. … The Church does not exist nor does she work for herself, but is at the service of a humanity called to divine sonship in Christ (cf. RM 19). She thus exercises an implicit mediation also with regard to those who do not know the Gospel.” (All Salvation Comes through Christ; General Audience — May 31, 1995)

[paragraphing added for easier reading]

The Holy Father (of Blessed memory) seems to be confirming these;

We know what we know!
Revelation has shown and the Apostolic Succession teaches and continues to teach, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and no other name under Heaven can save us! If you know Christ or heard of Him, somehow this can only be through The Church…therefore salvation CAN be yours and it will be THROUGH The Church.

We don’t know what we don’t know!
…but The Church has ‘reached’ into the unknown by SPECIFYING how those outside Her scope can ALSO attain salvation.

In essence, The Church has proclaimed salvation is offered to every soul ever born!..

etc… etc.

So that there is no doubt, the underlined in your post is for emphasis, but the whole is accepted as read.

 

[Deconi]

Do you mean to tell me that you ALSO believe a person must be a visible member of the Catholic Church on earth in order to be saved?

Unless there’s two ‘Guanophores’ in here (CAF) I’m pretty sure you’re smarter than that.

 

[Deconi]

I think Anne and Deconi will say others in this thread are attributing views to them that they do not hold. However, if there is any truth to that, and I am not sure that there is, it is largely due to the fact that both Anne and Deconi are somewhat evasive. Try to pin them down on exactly what they believe and they slip away behind a barrage of quotes or unrelated responses. It can make one long for the old days of the Inquisition.

I actually took you to be beyond straw bailing.

Aww well…*

 

[Deconi]

You can pin down a genuine debator, not slippery crooks and artful dodgers who evade your pinning posts. I quote below one of my posts that was conveniently evaded by both.

*This is how Anne’s simple statement of fact was done Deconi: A Papal bull issued years ago in specific response to heretic doctrines of deserters is quoted to-day, to send out a wrong message that all non-catholics will go to hell. Where was the need to carefully avoid all contemprorary and current Papal teachings and statements and selectively quote very old ones out of context? *

My apologies, Pitch. I thought your emotive accusatorial was directed elsewhere and the point rhetoric.!

I didn’t ask for specificity regarding the Papal bull for that reason. If you wanna pursue the matter…‘have at it, Dodger!’

 

[Pitcharan]

*This is how Anne’s simple statement of fact was done Deconi: A Papal bull issued years ago in specific response to heretic doctrines of deserters is quoted to-day, to send out a wrong message that all non-catholics will go to hell. Where was the need to carefully avoid all contemprorary and current Papal teachings and statements and selectively quote very old ones out of context? *

My apologies, Pitch. I thought your emotive accusatorial was directed elsewhere and the point rhetoric.!

I didn’t ask for specificity regarding the Papal bull for that reason. If you wanna pursue the matter…‘have at it, Dodger!’

This is another variety of evasion by digressing from the subject and making unwarranted personal remarks. My post was addressed to you; after dodging response you are calling me Dodger and asking me to pursue it after the ball has been in your court for quite some time. All these cheap evasion gimmicks are your natural ways. You have neither substance to share nor quest to learn and can’t even respond in a straight forward manner

 

[AnneElliot]

Also, I noticed Anne has been avoiding my posts. There are several posts that have been avoided, but the posts in question will magically re-appear, several times.

I have not been avoiding your posts, I have simply left the discussion since it has turned from issues to insults. Everyone is too busy being all worried over my character and orthodoxy. So, while you’re all worried over my pride, narrowmindedness, and ‘heretical’ “interpretations” etc. I hope you are saying several prayers for me.

 

[jericho777]

If you were at church and saw the preacher call down the Holy Spirit to, say, turn a stone into water, would you not call that a genuine miracle?

At each and every Catholic Mass a far more amazing miracle takes place. One that makes physical healing look like ‘small potatoes’.
The God who created all things changes simple bread and wine into His very Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. The God who saves us, the God who is so enormous that He cannot be contained by the universe He created, changes every small particle of bread and droplet of wine into His very Self.
THAT IS SO HUMBLING AND AMAZING. All who truly believe are awed as we adore Him and receive Him into our mouths.
That happens at each and every Mass.
Pray, my friend, that one day you too may experience our Lord in this very intimate way.

Jericho, you are obviously too intelligent to believe that Jesus left behind a neatly printed book for us to follow. So just where do you think the New Testament came from?
As I’ve said before, Jesus left us a Church NOT a bible. The New Testament came from the oral Tradition and written Tradition (the letters in the N.T.) that the Catholic Church holds onto today.

“The Holy Spirit inspired men to write His word.” That was not the end of it. The Holy Spirit inspired men, ie His Church, to decide which written works He wants included in the bible and, most importantly, the Holy Spirit uses Apostolic Succession to continue to inspire His Church in the infallible interpretation of this holy (Catholic) book.

The greatest miracle of all is Jesus saving us sinners. But you all are side stepping the point, Jesus promised all who believe will cast out demons and heal the sick. Faith is the prerequisite for these miracles to occur. Where is the demonstration of the faith promised by Christ in your church? You don’t see it. Look at Peter, John and Paul. Paul was the greatest healer recorded in the NT. I guess people in the CC don’t need God to heal them physically or spiritually any more. PS that’s why numerous catholics come to to our monthly healing service because the demonstration of Gods’ power is not exhibited in their own church. And yes they get healed!

Jesus didn’t leave a printed book behind just His inspired word. The word is powerful and reveals God’s will to His people. How can the lesser (the church) define the greater (the Word of God). You are mistaken if you think you can give council to God or make decisions for Him.

 

[jericho777]

What is the “It” you are referring to here? What lays the foundation of faith? .

We were talking about the OT.

What you seem to be saying is that you taught yourself from books. How does that equate to being taught by an Apostle? .

I asked twb to explain what he meant when he made that statement. My response was my knowledge only came from reading and studying scripture.

Your opinions are not on par wtih the disciples of the Apostles. I am not even sure you have read their writings.

I only know what the apostles wrote in the NT.

 

[twb1621]

I hope that everyone will have patience with me in my responding to these recent posts as they are from a “former” Catholic suffering from the same syndrome as many others unfamiliar with the True Faith in Catholicism. I believe clarification needs to be made for the sake of the poster and all who may be reading from the side lines. Here we go…

…

*Israel was is and will always be God’s chosen people.

Agreed.

*God always has a remnant apart from the greater number, even when the religious leadership goes astray.

Your criticized Catholic Priests for their looks and actions. Show me were scripture shows God declares the Israelites “gone astray” because of their garments of worship and condemns the priests for wearing those garments.
In your mentioning wrongful acts, lets acknowledge there have been corrupt in the Church at times over her life. That shouldn’t be a shock if we are familiar with scripture itself;

Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat:…

(Sifted certainly describes all the denominations born out of the “reformation” including the adopted beliefs you are promoting.)

…32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

(And the Church Jesus founded with His Blood continues under the covenant He made with Her.)

Acts CH20; 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them**.**”

(We were warned of corruption IN and OUTSIDE His Church at times and that there would be those who would come and lead others astray. It does not say His Church or the Church’s teachings will lead others astray, does it? He instructed us to persevere, not go off and established new faiths and teachings such as those born of the 500 year old movement as you are promoting.)

“…21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”

Was Paul a minister in the church you practice within? He was a minister in the Universal Church. If according to you he was, please show me were you verify the lineage of these teachings from scripture through to today as history provides in authenticating the Catholic Faith.

Where is the continuity of the succession of the apostles in the Grace of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands in your church, which extends the authority Christ passed on to His chosen Apostles as shown in scripture and throughout history ?

These are questions you should ask of yourself in order to be able to justify your faith but do not wish to delve into.

As I asked you before and you didn’t respond, where does scripture show any support for the reformation, the establishing of any church body independent of His Church, or the re-forming, reconciling or altering of His church or teachings from that of Christ’s original Church by any man or woman? I’ll help you save time, such things are non-existent in scripture and in fact are in opposition to scripture.

*When I present passages that show my position you ignore them.

Wrong; Show me what I ignored, I seriously doubt that. If I inadvertently missed something by all means call it to my attention because I wish to offer you a response to whatever is reasonably presented, as long as you are seeking to find the truth and not closed minded just wishing to state what you can not support. Would you like me to go back and count all the passages and verses I presented you that you refuse to respond to being in opposition with?

*There is definitely leadership in the church but your version leaves people as subjects of the religious leadership not co laborers.

Wrong again; We are subjects of Christ’s leadership through the Church He founded to guide His sheep. Do you find offense in His referring to us as His sheep, rather than being referred to as His teachers? Refer to the following from the Church’s teachings (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

…

*They are in bondage to a religious system that limits their service rather than being ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

A “minister” of the Gospel can perform that service in many ways. For instance
Matthew CH25; v 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Are we not ministers of His Word by serving humbly and charitably as He teaches above? And are not those of us here and in other forums across the board serving as His ministers?
Or rather than being considered as one of His sheep, do you need the recognition of the Pharisees you mentioned before?

CCC **A priestly, prophetic, and royal people **

**783 **Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.208

**784 **On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people’s unique, *priestly *vocation: "Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people ‘a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.’ The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are *consecrated *to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood."209

**785 **“The holy People of God shares also in Christ’s *prophetic *office,” above all in the supernatural sense of faith that belongs to the whole People, lay and clergy, when it "unfailingly adheres to this faith . . . once for all delivered to the saints,"210 and when it deepens its understanding and becomes Christ’s witness in the midst of this world.

**786 **Finally, the People of God shares in the *royal *office of Christ. He exercises his kingship by drawing all men to himself through his death and Resurrection.211 Christ, King and Lord of the universe, made himself the servant of all, for he came "not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."212 For the Christian, “to reign is to serve him,” particularly when serving "the poor and the suffering, in whom the Church recognizes the image of her poor and suffering founder."213 The People of God fulfills its royal dignity by a life in keeping with its vocation to serve with Christ.

The only “service” the Church limits is the spreading of the distorted self interpretations of the Word of God supported only by man’s weakness in faith to live as Christ’s teachings asks of us.

Your reciting classic Protestantism but tell me how you chose the “right system of beliefs out of over 30,000 of those you had to choose from. Respectfully, did you choose based on what you believed was acceptable to believe or in what was demanded or not demanded of you in this branch you adopted? You didn’t make it up for sure so you are following someone’s teachings but which one and from that one which version?

How many passages have you presented to me, two? And what you presented with your adopted interpretation was in total opposition to the many, many I presented to you but you choose to ignore that so as to remain with what you wish to believe rather than accepting all of God’s Inspired Word. In order to accept it all it all must work in unison, one verse with another.

*It is preposterous to think that God would wait 325 years after the birth of Jesus before revealing scripture to His people. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write His word. From that time onward it is scripture apart from the will or actions of men.

So do you believe the Bible is a collection of writings among many that existed and organized and dropped from heaven?

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

*Then the priesthood of believers qualifies all believers to administer religious rites. As we are a nation of priests before our God. 1Peter 2:9

---

Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

There’s those classic protestant verses that are so badly beaten in interpretations. So what is your point in these quotes. They fit perfectly with the rest of scripture including the numerous verses I presented to you, but not in the context you wish them to. Refer to the following;

“and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, ‘You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?’” (Num. 16:3). Korah, Dathan and Abiram and two hundred and fifty followers then sought to offer incense before the Lord but the earth opened up and fire came forth from the Tabernacle to swallow and consume them. God showed that these men
were not to offer incense even though all the people of Israel according to Exodus 19:6 were priests. St. Jude tells us that some Christians in his day (despite 1 Pet. 2:5-9) were guilty of the same sin when he states, “Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion” (Jude 1:11).

In Old Testament Israel there were three levels of priests: the people of Israel as a whole (Exod. 19:6); the ministerial priests chosen from the tribe of Levi (Num. 3:5); and the High Priest (Exod. 31:30). This three-tiered model of the priesthood was carried over and reflected in the people of God of the New Testament: the universal priests are now the entire body of the
baptized (1 Pet. 2:5-9); the ministerial priests the ordained successors to the Apostles (Rom. 15:16); and the High Priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1). In both the Old and New Testaments, therefore, the fact that the entire body of believers were regarded as priests was no obstacle to the existence of a separate ministerial priesthood. It is in the Catholic Church with her ordained hierarchical priesthood that the laity can be truly a “priesthood of all believers.”

It is the Catholic Church that encourages its membership to “take up their cross,” to “drink His cup,” to offer up their sufferings as a victim, to help orphans and widows, to abstain from the defilements of the world, and to give alms. These are regarded as acts of true worship and as sacrifices “acceptable and pleasing to God” (Phil. 4:18). A Christianity that does not demand moral change or good works to be justified, insisting simply on the sufficiency of fiducial faith, is more a denial of the common priesthood than the ministerial priesthood.” lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page138.html

Also refer to the CCC paragraphs above…

I have shown you over and over how wrong you are and how poorly you, just as I once did, had no real knowledge of the Catholic Faith and especially scripture. You have not responded to the majority of my responses and questions to you including the scripture verses. In your misguided prejudice, you forget one thing as I told you before; I didn’t want to return to the Catholic Church but expected to find through research the truth elsewhere. I did find the Truth, learned humility through my shame and overcame my ego and that Truth and fullness of Christ’s Word is not in any partial or adapted teaching, but in the Complete lineage for 2000 years of Christ’s unaltered teachings protected, preserved and presented by the Catholic Church. You are where I was 6 years ago and by the grace of God I pray you reach and even surpass where I have gotten. I have reconverted from ignorance to the Church Jesus founded with His Blood.

Peace

 

[Deconi]

You can pin down a genuine debator, not slippery crooks and artful dodgers who evade your pinning posts. I quote below one of my posts that was conveniently evaded by both.

This is another variety of evasion by digressing from the subject and making unwarranted personal remarks. My post was addressed to you; after dodging response you are calling me Dodger and asking me to pursue it after the ball has been in your court for quite some time. All these cheap evasion gimmicks are your natural ways. You have neither substance to share nor quest to learn and can’t even respond in a straight forward manner

Perhaps when you’ve finished with the ad homs you can take a breath and sit up straight and review your position(s) as exampled above!

Then you can cite me the specific Bull you mentioned…out of the many that Anne has sourced…and kindly point me to the problem you see with her application of it.

Right becomes wrong when quoted out of context. A Papal bull issued years ago in specific response to heretic doctrines of deserters, if quoted to-day, will only send out a wrong message that all non-catholics will go to hell.

Where is the need to carefully avoid all contemprorary and current Papal teachings and statements and selectively quote very old ones out of context?

Bearing in mind the subject of the thread is a dogma of the faith, and your contention is with a Bull, and I suspect Anne ‘selected’ the points that speaks toward that dogma, define for me your contention and why contemporary thinking has “changed” any aspect of that dogma.

 

[jericho777]

I hope that everyone will have patience with me in my responding to these recent posts as they are from a “former” Catholic suffering from the same syndrome as many others unfamiliar with the True Faith in Catholicism. I believe clarification needs to be made for the sake of the poster and all who may be reading from the side lines. Here we go…

Well that was a nice introduction! I am only rejoicing in the freedom Christ purchased for me on the cross. And I am joyful to share Gods’ word and grace with others.

Agreed.

Your criticized Catholic Priests for their looks and actions. Show me were scripture shows God declares the Israelites “gone astray” because of their garments of worship and condemns the priests for wearing those garments.
In your mentioning wrongful acts, lets acknowledge there have been corrupt in the Church at times over her life. That shouldn’t be a shock if we are familiar with scripture itself;

It was not their looks but their actions I was referring to. I am not too young to remember the days when the clergy would walk around in their religiosity with people trembling and quivering in their presence. They were unapproachable like some type of royalty.

Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat:…

(Sifted certainly describes all the denominations born out of the “reformation” including the adopted beliefs you are promoting.)

…32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

(And the Church Jesus founded with His Blood continues under the covenant He made with Her.)

(We were warned of corruption IN and OUTSIDE His Church at times and that there would be those who would come and lead others astray. It does not say His Church or the Church’s teachings will lead others astray, does it? He instructed us to persevere, not go off and established new faiths and teachings such as those born of the 500 year old movement as you are promoting.)

“…21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”

I do not think churches are independent. We are all connected by our love for Jesus and His word.

Was Paul a minister in the church you practice within? He was a minister in the Universal Church. If according to you he was, please show me were you verify the lineage of these teachings from scripture through to today as history provides in authenticating the Catholic Faith.

Where is the continuity of the succession of the apostles in the Grace of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands in your church, which extends the authority Christ passed on to His chosen Apostles as shown in scripture and throughout history ?

Paul‘s ministry was directly from God not the 12. You are misguided in your thinking that God has to work through some magical line of succession. It is God who calls individuals to their ministry. God chooses and uses peoples apart from their historical lineage.

As I asked you before and you didn’t respond, where does scripture show any support for the reformation, the establishing of any church body independent of His Church, or the re-forming, reconciling or altering of His church or teachings from that of Christ’s original Church by any man or woman? I’ll help you save time, such things are non-existent in scripture and in fact are in opposition to scripture.

Wrong; Show me what I ignored, I seriously doubt that. If I inadvertently missed something by all means call it to my attention because I wish to offer you a response to whatever is reasonably presented, as long as you are seeking to find the truth and not closed minded just wishing to state what you can not support. Would you like me to go back and count all the passages and verses I presented you that you refuse to respond to being in opposition with?

Wrong again; We are subjects of Christ’s leadership through the Church He founded to guide His sheep. Do you find offense in His referring to us as His sheep, rather than being referred to as His teachers? Refer to the following from the Church’s teachings (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

continued next post…

I do/did not study the reformation. Any similarities in our theology is not intentional per say. Maybe the reason we agree in our theology is because it is simply biblical truth. The only logical conclusion one can reach by reading scripture apart from the works of men.

 

[itinerant1]

The Holy Father (of Blessed memory) seems to be confirming these;

We know what we know!
Revelation has shown and the Apostolic Succession teaches and continues to teach, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and no other name under Heaven can save us! If you know Christ or heard of Him, somehow this can only be through The Church…therefore salvation CAN be yours and it will be THROUGH The Church.

We don’t know what we don’t know!
…but The Church has ‘reached’ into the unknown by SPECIFYING how those outside Her scope can ALSO attain salvation.

In essence, The Church has proclaimed salvation is offered to every soul ever born!..

etc… etc.

So that there is no doubt, the underlined in your post is for emphasis, but the whole is accepted as read.

I take then you are in agreement with what Pope John Paul II has taught. I also take it that in consequence of your agreement here, you are in disagreement with Anne, when she denied that (regarding the early Church Fathers’ reflection on Cornelius in Acts) that a pagan can be an “upright and God-fearing” man and saved although he, through no fault of his own, was never a professed member of the Church or even baptized.

Anne also denied that a person can be saved extra-sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by resaon of at least his implicit desire to belong to the Church. I take it that you are not in agreement with her denial here, either.

In the context of these denials, to subsequently cite a papal document that simply states there is no salvation outside of the Church, is misleading and erroneous in regard to how the Church understands the undeniable truth of “no salvation outside the Church”. It’s all about context.

 

[itinerant1]

I actually took you to be beyond straw bailing.

Aww well…*

BTW, I even have friends in low places where the whiskey drowns and the beer chases my blues away.

 

[itinerant1]

I have not been avoiding your posts, I have simply left the discussion since it has turned from issues to insults. Everyone is too busy being all worried over my character and orthodoxy. So, while you’re all worried over my pride, narrowmindedness, and ‘heretical’ “interpretations” etc. I hope you are saying several prayers for me.

Each one of us should say a prayer for the others…