No Salvation Outside The Church?

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Hi, Itinerant1,

Thanks for the link - it is too late for me to read it, but, I hope to get to this by Monday.

Have a great day! 🙂

God bless
itinerant1 said:
I just finished reading the following article at Catholic Education Resource Center. This article is one of the best I have come across because, for one reason, it discusses “No salvation outside the Church” in its historical context over the centuries.

So, in the spirit of “group hug”, I would like to “share” with all of you what Fr. Peter Stravinskas has to say: Can Outsiders Be Insiders?
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itinerant1 said:
I just finished reading the following article at Catholic Education Resource Center. This article is one of the best I have come across because, for one reason, it discusses “No salvation outside the Church” in its historical context over the centuries.

So, in the spirit of “group hug”, I would like to “share” with all of you what Fr. Peter Stravinskas has to say: Can Outsiders Be Insiders?
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A timely and valued reference… Thanks iti.👍
 
twb1621 said:
In all fairness, I thought I should clear Deconi’s name on this as he was only commenting on posts I wrote to Jericho777. The post he quoted was not addressed to him. easily misunderstood…

Peace,
Tom
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Pitcharan said:
I see you do this regularly Deconi. You conveniently evaded what Tom had posted earlier and now when he reminds you saying that you did not read or understand his post, you use a sweet compliment to once again evade a straight forward response. That’s why I called you an ARTFUL DODGER
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Hi Deconi,
I humbly admit that I got it wrong. Next time I’ll try to read with an open mind sans preconceptions.

Warm regards
Pitcharan
 
jericho777 said:
Actually the bible teaches salvation is only found in the person of Jesus the Christ. Acts 4:10,12 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead… 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved."
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That is true. And Christ has chosen to dispense the grace obtained by His life, death and resurrection through His Mystical Body - the Catholic Church.

It does not however mean that only Catholics will be saved.
 
itinerant1 said:
Yes, you did miss the posts in question made by Anne. Clearly, you have not followed this discussion as closely as you led everyone to believe when you entered the thread in defense of Anne.

I suggest you get up to speed on the history of this discussion before you make any more critiques, of which you are not, by your own admission, properly informed to make.
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Aww…OK! Since you have no view on the body of my views but that of Annes, I’ve re-read the thread and I failed yet again!

Perhaps you can put me out of my misery and requote it for me…better still, the post number.

For the record, I don’t agree with Anne on one or two things, but I think she may have meant something different than what I ‘see.’

:cool:
 
twb1621 said:
In all fairness, I thought I should clear Deconi’s name on this as he was only commenting on posts I wrote to Jericho777. The post he quoted was not addressed to him. easily misunderstood…

Peace,
Tom
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Thanks, Tom.

I was referring to the rather lengthy discourse you’ve continued with Jeri…and the patience you display throughout. I do not possess such supply of the stuff, I fear.

Perhaps in time I may have an opportunity to shield you with my skirt.

:cool:
 
Pitcharan said:
I see you do this regularly Deconi. You conveniently evaded what Tom had posted earlier and now when he reminds you saying that you did not read or understand his post, you use a sweet compliment to once again evade a straight forward response. That’s why I called you an ARTFUL DODGER
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Originally Posted by Deconi
…Salvation may be available to all, but it is still a choice!
Pitcharan said:
NOT MAY BE. It is available to all mankind no religions barred
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Originally Posted by Deconi
Whilst there is no salvation outside The Church,
Pitcharan said:
This is the statement that is ambiguous purely from the language view point of how it is understood. The CC position as taught to us is this: there are many false teachings on salvation going around outside the CC mainly by heretic deserters. We are warned not to believe in a teaching other than what CC teaches (that is a teaching different from what CC teaches). It does not mean that all that is taught outside is wrong. Some eastern orthodox teachings are identical to CC
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Originally Posted by Deconi
it also does not mean Catholics are guaranteed salvation.
Pitcharan said:
No one ever said so; why mention this now?
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Hmm…
Pitcharan said:
Hi Deconi,
I humbly admit that I got it wrong. Next time I’ll try to read with an open mind sans preconceptions.
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…No worries, Pitch. I begin to see the problem.

If you apologise again everyone will begin to see tears under my glasses…which will be…UNCOOL!
Don’t do it!

My ‘invite’ remains about a dogma that has ‘moved forward’…or the Bull that Anne quotes that is an issue.

That said, I understand the thread has moved on into picture posting. Perhaps we’re done!

:cool:
 
Deconi said:
…No worries, Pitch. I begin to see the problem.:cool:
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No worries Deconi. I can see thro’ your tactics. Ingenious indeed. Carefully combining unconnected posts and quoting to include at the bottom I humbly admit I got it wrong, suggests that I admit getting all those quoted things wrong. I think you are incorrigible…
…If you apologise again everyone will begin to see tears under my glasses…which will be…UNCOOL! Don’t do it!:cool:
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I can clearly see you behind your glasses now. I can’t become crafty or try to change the way I am created. Whenever I realise that I’ve got it wrong, I’ll admit it…
 
Deconi said:
Thanks, Tom.

I was referring to the rather lengthy discourse you’ve continued with Jeri…and the patience you display throughout. I do not possess such supply of the stuff, I fear.

Perhaps in time I may have an opportunity to shield you with my skirt.

:cool:
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I appreciate your supporting comments, Thanks Deconi.
 
JM3 said:
I have noticed , in this thread, a misunderstanding of what the Church means by ‘No salvation outside the Church’ or, perhaps, you all just like to argue.

I will state it simply: No salvation outside the Church applies to Catholics who leave the Church, whether physically, mentally or spiritually, and those who are not Catholic, but know that the Church has the fullness of sanctifying Grace within her. This is what the Church has always taught.

" Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." Lumen Gentium (14)
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Well said JM3 – the whole concept in a nutshell. Your writing reflects a solid Catholic education, and common sense. We must pray that our dear posters on this “No Salvation outside the Church” thread become fully enlightened, and attain their salvations.
 
jericho777 said:
Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen’t make the body.
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Hi. I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but I was in a similar thread a short time ago and I found the following passage then:
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…
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[Collosians 1:24, NAB]
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The Church is Christ’s body. The reason there is no salvation outside the Church is precisely because of this. Membership in the Catholic Church is not necessary to be saved. There is a link to an article on CAF which explains this well but I’ll have to find it. I believe it is true (as another poster stated) that if a Catholic knows the Church is the true Church and leaves he/she is in big trouble and if a non-Catholic knows the Church is the true Church and does not join (assuming he/she has the ability to join*) he/she will probably be meeting up with the Catholic who left the Church (in a very hot place).

Jesus died for everyone, not just Catholics. The heresy of Feeneyism just doesn’t seem to want to give up and die.

I hope this helps. God bless. 🙂

*Like he is on his way to talk to the priest and find out about classes and has every intention of becoming Catholic and is killed in a car accident on his way.
 
Deconi said:
Aww…OK! Since you have no view on the body of my views but that of Annes, I’ve re-read the thread and I failed yet again!

Perhaps you can put me out of my misery and requote it for me…better still, the post number.

For the record, I don’t agree with Anne on one or two things, but I think she may have meant something different than what I ‘see.’

:cool:
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What are the one or two things you disagree with, regarding Anne, but are not sure what she meant?
 
Deconi said:
Aww…OK! Since you have no view on the body of my views but that of Annes, I’ve re-read the thread and I failed yet again!

Perhaps you can put me out of my misery and requote it for me…better still, the post number.

For the record, I don’t agree with Anne on one or two things, but I think she may have meant something different than what I ‘see.’

:cool:
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Odd that you did not find anything.:rolleyes: It took me less than 5 minutes to find a handful or erroneous positions posted by Anne. Oh what I could find in 10 minutes!

#429 Anne denies that “No salvation outside the Church” is an ambiguous proposition. Fail!

To the contrary, this has been probably *the *most misunderstood proposition in the history of the Church.

#357 Anne misrepresents what I stated about the baptism of desire. She says, “When you open up baptism of desire to anyone, you strip (not only the necessity of Baptism, and membership in the Church) the necessity of explicit faith in Jesus Christ. There is no support of any kind for such thinking.”

Elsewhere, Anne limits the baptism of desire to catechumens. Fail!

Also, according to Anne, there is no salvation without “explicit faith in Jesus Christ”. Double Fail!

#347 Anne objects to statements by Ludwig Ott (regarding hypothetical necessity), and Fr. Hardon (regarding the second Tradition about salvation), posted at # 338**. Fail!**

To the contrary, Ott and Fr. Hardon accurately represent Church teaching.

#324 Anne says, “Others have asserted that there are, in fact, non-Catholics in Heaven. Yet cannot provide even one name.”

Say What? Only Catholics in Heaven? Fail!

**#304 **Blatant misrepresentation of Romans 2:13-16 by Anne , so it won’t conflict with here constricted interpretation of “No salvation out side the Church”. Fail!

Need more, or will this do?
 
itinerant1 said:
#429 Anne denies that “No salvation outside the Church” is an ambiguous proposition. Fail!
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‘No Salvation Outside the Church’ is a Dogma of the Church… are you saying the formulation of the Dogma is ambiguous? Is the Dogma ambiguous?
Elsewhere, Anne limits the baptism of desire to catechumens. Fail!

Also, according to Anne, there is no salvation without “explicit faith in Jesus Christ”. Double Fail!
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😦

Whilst you’re usage of the teenage lingo is cute, I hope you are considering the seriousness of what you are typing…
 
AnneElliot said:
‘No Salvation Outside the Church’ is a Dogma of the Church… are you saying the formulation of the Dogma is ambiguous? Is the Dogma ambiguous?

😦

Whilst you’re usage of the teenage lingo is cute, I hope you are considering the seriousness of what you are typing…
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I could be serious. Yes, indeed. But I can also be not-serious, funny, silly, ridiculous, or whatever else is in my repertoire of unusual behaviors. :ballspin:

Yes the formulation is ambiguous. How else would account for the fact that it is probably the most misunderstood dogma in the Church? In addition, how do you account for the fact you have misunderstood it?

Also, besides Maritain pointing out the ambiguity, so does Fr. Stavinskas in the article I previously linked to.

I am not sure what your point here is, or if you even have one.??? :whistle:
 
Note:

What the Church teaches in modern times about the meaning of “No salvation out the Church” is integrally rooted in the second, less known Tradition of the early Church, which in no way contradicts the better known Tradition.

The claim that the Church in modern times errors in its teaching implies that the Vatican, including especially Pope John Paul II, have or are teaching heresy. This impugns the infallibility of the general teaching authority of the Church. In consequence, those who claim that the Church is in error, implicitly at least, deny that the Holy Spirit is keeping the Church from error in matters of the faith.
 
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