No Salvation Outside the Church

[concretecamper]

This topic has troubled me for years. I too cannot get my heart around “extra ecclesium nullas salus”. I’ve read what popes have declared and I have also listened to more modern interpretations. I will leave it to God. However, I want to advance the following perspective.

If any christian religion or private devotion of Christ is an acceptable pathway to salvation, then what is the purpose of the Catholic Church? Is the purpose to just get the ball rolling? Then why be catholic? Why be one? Why convert people for the reason of bringing the fullness of faith to them if it does not matter one lick. Who cares if one has the fullness of faith if it does not matter. I know I am not capable of making any sort of judgment on this. Has ecumenism blinded us? What is the purpose of ecumenism? Is it merely to talk? Why talk about our differences if they do not matter in the end of the day?

My head hurts thinking about this…I guess we will find out some day.

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[benjohnson]

This topic has troubled me for years. I too cannot get my heart around “extra ecclesium nullas salus”.

From the Lutheran perspective, we too claim that you need to be in our church to normally hear the Gospel and receive the Sacraments.

If we didn’t claim this, then what would be the point of continuing to exist?

Now, just because we say we’re the correct church, this does not bind God. Just as we trust in God’s tender love for those infants who died unbaptized, so we take joy in his love for all.

Theologians from our church have remarked that being in God’s ‘one church’ is a joy but perhaps a burden - for when we come before Him, we can’t plead ignorance. I’ve heard similar warnings from Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox.

When I begin to worry about such things and start to become strident, for myself, I have to remind myself that the Gospel is a comfort. It’s the Law that condemns us, but the Gospel is pure Love unbound.

 

[Tomster]

The RCC doesn’t control who is saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The are some Protestant denoms who will tell you “Once Saved, Always Saved”. Where they come up with that I’ll leave to you.

 

[catanswer]

Was the pope exercising papal infallibility?

What exactly is the “merits of Christ”, as in is it something beyond Incarnation of God, suffering/death on the Cross, and resurrection?

i thought papal infallibility was not a “law” until 1869

During his pontificate, he convened the First Vatican Council in 1869, which decreed papal infallibility. The Pope defined the dogma of the Immaculate …

but you are right the counsal of trent 1551-- declared everyone not baptised in the catholic way, ie sacrement— out side the church or body of christ

 

[Evan]

i thought papal infallibility was not a “law” until 1869

During his pontificate, he convened the First Vatican Council in 1869, which decreed papal infallibility. The Pope defined the dogma of the Immaculate …

but you are right the counsal of trent 1551-- declared everyone not baptised in the catholic way, ie sacrement— out side the church or body of christ

Papal infallibility was not proclaimed until 1869, it was in effect since the 1st Pentecost. Proclaiming something in council does not make it true.

Christ did not become man when declared true man at the Council of Antioch. Mary was not assumed when the Dogma of the Assumption was proclaimed. etc.

 

[JMJCatholic]

Concretecamper and benjohnson, I appreciate your sincerity on this topic. I do not believe that if those of other faiths can be saved it is pointless to seek their conversion. If I believe I have the “pearl of great price”, the “fullness of the faith”, I want the best for others, as God does. I have no doubt that one who for example has not heard of Jesus or who does not have the “fullness of the faith”, and who has lived a good life (based on the natural law written on our hearts), will be saved. Still it makes sense to me that God would want all those He died to save to know Him as best they can, so they can better love and serve Him. This is not indifference. We all should be seeking truth.

What may be key to making sense of what appears to be “changing doctrine” is that the Doctrine of Infallibility was not defined until 1870, and perhaps proclamations prior to that do not carry the same weight.

JMJ

 

[R_C]

On this issue I believe the Church may be able to give Holy Orders to women someday to the deaconate. See Canon 1009:

“Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity”.
​

Hold on, the deaconate of women was never a share in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Read what has been written officially on the topic since the Church Fathers and you’ll see they were clearly declared to be amidst the laity, the Holy Orders being reserved to men. The women received a ministry focused on very specific functions, and certainly they were not allowed to approach the altar or instruct/read.

Yet, today, at least in the Latin Catholic Church, one sees women as altar servers and readers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Those are liturgical functions.

Those things are not appreciated by everyone - as you may think. Some (many, but the terms are relative) consider these are a major departure from the tradition of the Roman Rite, and hope that in the future their role may be more clearly delineated from the roles traditionally reserved to men. I imagine that they must look as abominations in the eyes of the Orthodox who hold on to the Divine Liturgy as it was passed down to them.​

 

[R_C]

Yet, today, at least in the Latin Catholic Church, one sees women as altar servers and readers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Those are liturgical functions.

Both things are not as appreaciated by everyone as you may think. Some consider they are a major departure from the tradition of the Roman Rite, and hope that in the future their role may be more clearly delineated from the roles traditionally reserved to men.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Concretecamper and benjohnson, I appreciate your sincerity on this topic. I do not believe that if those of other faiths can be saved it is pointless to seek their conversion. If I believe I have the “pearl of great price”, the “fullness of the faith”, I want the best for others, as God does. I have no doubt that one who for example has not heard of Jesus or who does not have the “fullness of the faith”, and who has lived a good life (based on the natural law written on our hearts), will be saved. Still it makes sense to me that God would want all those He died to save to know Him as best they can, so they can better love and serve Him. This is not indifference. We all should be seeking truth.

What may be key to making sense of what appears to be “changing doctrine” is that the Doctrine of Infallibility was not defined until 1870, and perhaps proclamations prior to that do not carry the same weight.

JMJ

I think the best answer we have is, we can’t say if they are saved, and we can’t say if they can’t be saved. We believe we have the truth and this is the path to salvation. Think of it this way, let’s say life is driving from LA to NYC. NYC is heaven (for argument’s sake). If we are part of the True Church we are given a high-tech, sophisticated GPS with up-to-the-minute traffic reports and map updates to make sure we get there the best possible way. We can still refuse to follow the GPS, but it has been provided to us. And everyone else have old maps or no maps at all. People can still get from LA to NYC without a map. It might take a longer time, they might get lost many, many times along the way, but somehow, some way they get there. There’s a greater chance they never get there, but it doesn’t eliminate the possibility that they would.

 

[JMJCatholic]

Hold on, the deaconate of women was never a share in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Read what has been written officially on the topic since the Church Fathers and you’ll see they were clearly declared to be amidst the laity, the Holy Orders being reserved to men. The women received a ministry focused on very specific functions, and certainly they were not allowed to approach the altar or instruct/read.

Those things are not appreciated by everyone - as you may think. Some (many, but the terms are relative) consider these are a major departure from the tradition of the Roman Rite, and hope that in the future their role may be more clearly delineated from the roles traditionally reserved to men. I imagine that they must look as abominations in the eyes of the Orthodox who hold on to the Divine Liturgy as it was passed down to them.

I was only making a point that if one doctrine can “change” so can another. Women on the altar is a departure from tradition in the Roman Rite as well. Having attended the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday for many years, the Novus Ordo looks foreign.

JMJ

 

[ricofall]

I was only making a point that if one doctrine can “change” so can another. Women on the altar is a departure from tradition in the Roman Rite as well. Having attended the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday for many years, the Novus Ordo looks foreign.

JMJ

It is my understanding that Dogma and Doctrine cannot change. Tradition and disciplines can change though.

Interesting Thread

 

[clem456]

I think the best answer we have is, we can’t say if they are saved, and we can’t say if they can’t be saved. We believe we have the truth and this is the path to salvation. Think of it this way, let’s say life is driving from LA to NYC. NYC is heaven (for argument’s sake). If we are part of the True Church we are given a high-tech, sophisticated GPS with up-to-the-minute traffic reports and map updates to make sure we get there the best possible way. We can still refuse to follow the GPS, but it has been provided to us. And everyone else have old maps or no maps at all. People can still get from LA to NYC without a map. It might take a longer time, they might get lost many, many times along the way, but somehow, some way they get there. There’s a greater chance they never get there, but it doesn’t eliminate the possibility that they would.

To add to that, the one with the map is expected to find his way, and show the way to others. His responsibilities are greater, cause he has been given much. I always try to remember that the bar might be a little higher for me as a Catholic. Better for me not to point at those who are not getting in, cause I may be in the wrong line myself.

 

[ConstantineTG]

To add to that, the one with the map is expected to find his way, and show the way to others. His responsibilities are greater, cause he has been given much. I always try to remember that the bar might be a little higher for me as a Catholic. Better for me not to point at those who are not getting in, cause I may be in the wrong line myself.

Spot on. That is why we need to admonish one another so that we may help guide one another. A map can only do so much, it does not take away our free will. We’re given a map, not an autopilot.

 

[concretecamper]

JMJCatholic:

Concretecamper and benjohnson, I appreciate your sincerity on this topic. I do not believe that if those of other faiths can be saved it is pointless to seek their conversion. If I believe I have the “pearl of great price”, the “fullness of the faith”, I want the best for others, as God does. I have no doubt that one who for example has not heard of Jesus or who does not have the “fullness of the faith”, and who has lived a good life (based on the natural law written on our hearts), will be saved. Still it makes sense to me that God would want all those He died to save to know Him as best they can, so they can better love and serve Him. This is not indifference. We all should be seeking truth.

What may be key to making sense of what appears to be “changing doctrine” is that the Doctrine of Infallibility was not defined until 1870, and perhaps proclamations prior to that do not carry the same weight.

JMJ

even though papal infallibility was not proclaimed until later does not mean the prior years are void of infallible teaching. infallible declarations are normally made at a specific time to address a certain situation, AND they reinforce church teaching. In other words, papal infallibility was accepted wayyyyyy before the formal declaration.

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[Vico]

Hold on, the deaconate of women was never a share in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Read what has been written officially on the topic since the Church Fathers and you’ll see they were clearly declared to be amidst the laity, the Holy Orders being reserved to men. The women received a ministry focused on very specific functions, and certainly they were not allowed to approach the altar or instruct/read.

Those things are not appreciated by everyone - as you may think. Some (many, but the terms are relative) consider these are a major departure from the tradition of the Roman Rite, and hope that in the future their role may be more clearly delineated from the roles traditionally reserved to men. I imagine that they must look as abominations in the eyes of the Orthodox who hold on to the Divine Liturgy as it was passed down to them.

You may find this interesting (2000) from the International Theological Commission. There is a definite distinction in function, but there may actually have been Diaconate Holy Orders for women at one time (read the paper for that information).From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles: …
With regard to the ordination ofwomen to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:

1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;

             2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between  the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal  ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially  in the teaching of the Magisterium.
             In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present  historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of  discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce  authoritatively on this question.

Over and above all the questions raised by the diaconate, it is good to recall that ever since Vatican II the active presence of this ministry in the life of the Church has aroused, in memory of the example of Christ, a more vivid awareness of the value of service for Christian life.
​

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

You may find this interesting (2000) from the International Theological Commission. There is a definite distinction in function, but there may actually have been Diaconate Holy Orders for women at one time (read the paper for that information).From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles: …
With regard to the ordination ofwomen to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:

1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;

             2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between  the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal  ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially  in the teaching of the Magisterium.
             In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present  historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of  discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce  authoritatively on this question.

Over and above all the questions raised by the diaconate, it is good to recall that ever since Vatican II the active presence of this ministry in the life of the Church has aroused, in memory of the example of Christ, a more vivid awareness of the value of service for Christian life.
​

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

In the Byzantine Rite, the Rite of Ordination is exactly the same. So #1 is already not correct.

And #2 also has a wrong conclusion when it tries to separate the priesthood from the episcopate. The priesthood is the epsicopate, and the presbyter only exercises the priesthood upon the permission from the bishop. This is shown today by the antimens as practiced in the Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics, or what the Latins know as “faculties”.

 

[Vico]

In the Byzantine Rite, the Rite of Ordination is exactly the same. So #1 is already not correct.

And #2 also has a wrong conclusion when it tries to separate the priesthood from the episcopate. The priesthood is the epsicopate, and the presbyter only exercises the priesthood upon the permission from the bishop. This is shown today by the antimens as practiced in the Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics, or what the Latins know as “faculties”.

1. … and the functions …
2. … the distinction between the ministries of [1] the bishop and the priests on the one hand and [2] the diaconal ministry …

 

[JMJCatholic]

even though papal infallibility was not proclaimed until later does not mean the prior years are void of infallible teaching. infallible declarations are normally made at a specific time to address a certain situation, AND they reinforce church teaching. In other words, papal infallibility was accepted wayyyyyy before the formal declaration.

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Thanks, concretecamper. Can someone make an argument that No Salvation Outside the Church was not infallibly declared before it’s recent interpretation that allows for exceptions?

JMJ

 

[clem456]

Thanks, concretecamper. Can someone make an argument that No Salvation Outside the Church was not infallibly declared before it’s recent interpretation that allows for exceptions?

JMJ

Infallibility is not really the issue, so then it’s hard to see where there is room for argument. The issue seems to be learning about, understanding, and accepting these teachings with the mind of the Church. If that can’t be done then everything is argument.

 

[JMJCatholic]

Infallibility is not really the issue, so then it’s hard to see where there is room for argument. The issue seems to be learning about, understanding, and accepting these teachings with the mind of the Church. If that can’t be done then everything is argument.

What we believe must always be reasonable, though. Perhaps, I’ll post this question separately, and see if I can get some additional insights. Thanks, again.

JMJ