No Trinity for the LDS?

[rmcmullan]

Now while it’s never mentioned by name, it’s not hard to figure out what church is being referenced. Also some early Mormon publications stated it explicitly before having the offending passages pulled.

We’ve been over this one before and while this appears to be an accepted interpretation, I believe it is incorrect. Didn’t you understand what the prophet Nephi was saying?

**1 Ne 14:10 10 **And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

The church of the devil and the church of God. You could make the argument that the Catholic church was the church of God. For the full quote, see scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14/10#10

Also please note that this book was corrected by the First Presidency and that was one of the corrections that was made.

 

[PurpleViolets]

We’ve been over this one before and while this appears to be an accepted interpretation, I believe it is incorrect. Didn’t you understand what the prophet Nephi was saying?.

I was showing the LDS doctrinal support for the anti-Catholism held by some Mormons. All of those passages can and have been used by LDS to attempt to discredit or paint the Catholic church in a bad light.

The church of the devil and the church of God. You could make the argument that the Catholic church was the church of God. For the full quote, see scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14/10#10

Also please note that this book was corrected by the First Presidency and that was one of the corrections that was made.

The fact that the Book of Mormon is an exclusively Mormon book implies that all other churches (to include the Catholic) would then be the great and abominable church because they lack the missing pieces of the gospel that Mormonism claims to have restored. That it includes other sects beyond Catholicism in that assessment as well, changes nothing.

The fact that the Mormon Doctrine quotation in question wasn’t removed for 7 years says more to me than the fact that it was eventually removed. If it were a significant error, you’d think they’d have ran to fix it, not waited years.

The fact is, even doctrine changes a lot in Mormonism. This is a religion that is barely 200 years old, but has numerous changes in core doctrines. Then there are regional variations on what is actually being taught by the non-professional clergy.

Perhaps this is my age speaking but I consider the 1950s to be modern. To say that anti-catholicism as not been a part of modern teaching is quite misleading.

 

[rmcmullan]

I guess what you meant to say is “No, I do not understand what Nephi was saying”

 

[majick275]

Honestly, considering you have no citation to back up this ridiculous, I’m not going to engage it. The fact was that the U&T WERE used for “divination” in the OT, and NO ONE knows exactly what that means. To make some distinction between that and Joseph’s Seer Stones is highly irresponsible and highly naïve because it is all, 100% based on supposition. Good luck with that type of scholarship.

A Pac

you give no citation either but now I’m ridiculous? how about some common sense?
sure they were used for divination in the OT. where were they used for that by Joseph Smith? he only claimed to translate an existing book with them.(DHC) I made a distinction between them and the “seer stone” which he did claim divination with. (see the D&C) now then you show in the Bible where there was a similarity. where did OT prophets gaze into a stone to get scripture?

as to what I said earlier, here is a reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

if you want to refute specific claims I made then please do that and we can dive deeper into specific evidence. Any reading of the Bible when compared to a reading of the D&C makes certain distinctions obvious between U&T and the “seer stone”. I will ask again why isn’t the seer stone still used by LDS prophets today since they still have it?

 

[A_Pac]

PattyPryor,

I said,

And yes, I tend to joke with people that say stupid, inflammatory things.

And to that, you say…

so now we are stupid?

If you can’t differentiate between BEING stupid, and SAYING stupid, I’m afraid you’re only going to prove your case.

Lehl

However, you cannot argue with me that there are not “some members” or “some areas” that this ISN’T true.

I CAN!

It just seems he’s fighting so hard.

Fighting so hard? I guess you’re right. To get a substantial, intelligent conversation IS difficult to come by. On with the crusade!

Now, now Patty, he didn’t call anyone “stupid”. He said “people that SAY stupid things”

GOOD! I’m proud of you!

Then we have the genuine person who is truly interested and is struggling and comes across as very abrasive. It’s a defense mechanism and I’ve recognized it in several Mormons.

You must be a Mormon in denial…touché.
And defense mechanism? Wow. I didn’t realize this was much of a war…so far it’s been the beginnings of a water fight.

attributes? Is he the god over all the other gods, in the countless generations of gods? What do the LDS say about him?

As soon as you can understand the concept of eternity, then explain it to me. I have no idea. The infinite is still a bit beyond me.

Lehl,

Pacman is a sharp, witty guy. Over the years, he’s really ticked me off, annoyed me, but nonetheless–I’ve grown to actually like him quite a lot in a bizarre way (without it being creepy?!? right, Pacman?).

Most definitely, NOT creepy!

But I will say this, Pacman is very capable of respectful, engaging, and thoughtful discussions. IF he drops his defense mechanisms in time (before getting himself banned) then I know we will see it.

Actually…and I’ll be honest, the ‘wit’ is simply to get over the drone of inflammatory and ignorant comments. It gets so boring to read the same, irresponsible, uncritical nonsense. Having fun with such things is the only way I can make it even slightly entertaining…simply because really good discussion comes far and few in between. That’s just my opinion.

He has come to right place, finally, to encounter the heavyweights in Catholic apologetics.

GREAT! Send them here!
A Pac

 

[A_Pac]

AW:

The answer (again) is that the Scriptures cannot be properly understood outside the the Church which wrote them and interpreted them for the 1700 or so years before Joseph Smith brightened his father’s countenance.

CIRCULAR REASONING!!! This is LOGICALLY FALLACIOUS! To assume that something can only be understood in YOUR context to know of their validity is simply ridiculous, and scholastically irresponsible. THAT is why I reject it. Because it doesn’t make any sense!!!

Oh… I think I got the basics of Apostolic Succession. I just reject it out flat. I don’t think it makes the least bit of sense. That someone succeeds the Apostles when an Apostle was still very much alive.

You know what you did, and you know that it wasn’t nice…

But was it funny?

Heck, I may be the closest thing to a “friend” you’ve got here…

Golly jee! That’s swell! Thanks!

Call for sources! I assume you’ve got these bulls at your fingertips, and I’d be delighted to read them in full.

Great…I’m delighted to give them to you:

It’s the papal bull called “ad exstirpanda,” by Innocent the IV. This is the greatest example of Catholic Jihadism. Here’s a wiki, and you can do further research if you’d like:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_exstirpanda

But “the point” is that Mormonism teaches anti-Catholicism.

If you mean that inherently, the RCC is false if the Mormon Church is correct, then sure. There’s no overt “anti-“ teachings in our church. You can get the curriculum online and look for yourself if you don’t believe me. It simply isn’t there.

Yours are not yet logical, scholastic, or objective, except in your own mind.

My arguments are that consistency is better than inconsistency, and God doesn’t lie nor is a respecter of persons. Please…tell me how that’s not logical. And considering I’m sighting all sorts of things, that’s at least quasi-scholastic.

However, unlike some of the others here who wish you’d go, I rather hope you’ll stay.

Garsh…thanks!

I like Mormons who really display their wares. One of my theories about Mormons, based on some personal observation, is that as a general rule they are short on knowledge of Jesus. I’ve got a strong burning in my bosom that you are in this class of Mormon.

Feelings? What? Are you listening to…feelings? Run before you become a mormon!!! Don’t trust your feelings!!

Or is it heartburn?

And, I’d dearly love to see you learn more about Jesus.

I’d love to be taught…just make sure that whoever does the teaching, can answer my questions.

Kristine1957,

Anyway, the horse was GONE from the western hemiphere and was not seen again until the Spanish explorers brought horses by ship in the sixteenth century.

Then you need to read the news more. You are missing something. And we’re having a conversation about HORSES. Tell you what, if you promise never to post in a forum where I’m discussing again, I’ll give you a news article that shows that horses were in the America’s before the Spanish. Deal?

A Pac

 

[A_Pac]

PurpleViolets,

Now while it’s never mentioned by name…

Oh. So, your strawman is completely erroneous and doesn’t get of the ground? Please…don’t judge people for something that they didn’t say.

One example is the first edition of Mormon Doctrine (printed 1958-65) in which this appears:

Morom Doctrine was NOT a church publication. It was an individual publication, and when the President of the Church read it, he asked that parts be taken out because they WEREN’T TRUE.

Way to prove your point!

I was showing the LDS doctrinal support for the anti-Catholism held by some Mormons.

Yeah…except you failed miserably. You built a strawman and captioned it with statements that are simply untrue. You are irresponsible in your academics.

Then there are regional variations on what is actually being taught by the non-professional clergy.

Such as what? CALL FOR REFERENCES? Instead of spouting, how about you site something or be quiet. I really don’t have time for yet another juvenile simpleton.

Majick275,

sure they were used for divination in the OT. where were they used for that by Joseph Smith? he only claimed to translate an existing book with them.

And?? Your argument is BASED in argumentum ad ignorantium…that simply because there’s nothing that says the U&T were used in translation means that they simply could not be. This is a shallow, ridiculous, and poorly constructed argument. If you think you’ve got something…go with it. Just realize that any deductive logic professor or academic circle would laugh at your ridiculous connections.

if you want to refute specific claims I made then please do

Fine. YOU USE BAD LOGIC!!! You stand refuted.

I will ask again why isn’t the seer stone still used by LDS prophets today since they still have it?

CALL FOR REFERENCES!! Who said it’s not? Who says it is? Do you know something I don’t, or are you just making things up again? Go away. This conversation is offense to the intellects of many people here.

A Pac

 

[majick275]

PurpleViolets,

Majick275,

And?? Your argument is BASED in argumentum ad ignorantium…that simply because there’s nothing that says the U&T were used in translation means that they simply could not be. This is a shallow, ridiculous, and poorly constructed argument. If you think you’ve got something…go with it. Just realize that any deductive logic professor or academic circle would laugh at your ridiculous connections.

I have had enough of your childish pseudo intellectual arrogant posturing. we aren’t in an academic circle here and there isn’t one where the LDS religion is taken seriously. I realize that you take great joy in throwing around trite latin expressions out of context. I specifically stated how the Bible shows the U&T WERE used!!! It’s up to you to prove otherwise. Of course we all see that this just dodging the real question here about the seer stone isn’t it? Logic professors and academic circles have been laughing at the book of mormon and the foolish dupes that have given their money and their wives to Joseph Smith’s scam for years. what does that have to do with anything? you seem stumped by Joseph Smith’s seer stone that he placed in the hat and gazed into for revelation and the fact that it isn’t used anymore even though it’s still in the possession of the LDS prophet.

 

[A_Pac]

Majick275,

I have had enough of your childish pseudo intellectual arrogant posturing.

Then GO AWAY! Get out of an apologetics forum! Don’t come whining that you’re unprepared and blame it on others for showing just how ridiculous you look!

we aren’t in an academic circle here and there isn’t one where the LDS religion is taken seriously.

Ignoramus. Tell that to those in the Yale/Oxford circles.

I realize that you take great joy in throwing around trite latin expressions out of context.

Out of context? Better than making things up that can’t possibly be substantiated. Why don’t you grow up as an academic and back up the things you say so I don’t have to show what an irresponsible poster you are? If that’s not the case, then where in my logic have I erred? Where in my “latin” trite phrases have I erred? Are you more interested in boo-hooing than giving anything of substance?

A Pac

 

[majick275]

Majick275,

Then GO AWAY! Get out of an apologetics forum! Don’t come whining that you’re unprepared and blame it on others for showing just how ridiculous you look!

you have yet to introduce one shred of evidence for any of your positions. People who blindly follow cult leaders that change their doctrines whenever they wish would seem the ridiculous.

Ignoramus. Tell that to those in the Yale/Oxford circles.

really? and what great minds from Yale and Oxford are seriously delving into the BoM and finding truth?

Out of context? Better than making things up that can’t possibly be substantiated. Why don’t you grow up as an academic and back up the things you say so I don’t have to show what an irresponsible poster you are? If that’s not the case, then where in my logic have I erred? Where in my “latin” trite phrases have I erred? Are you more interested in boo-hooing than giving anything of substance?

A Pac

I can’t believe you even make this statement. Joseph smith spent most of his adult life making things up that can’t be substantiated. You want to throw the academic card around then show some evidence. What have you given us besides your opinion? You have erred in that you haven’t even attempted to establish any premise with facts. as far as your favorite phrases you misapplied it when I had given links to the works of hebrew scholars who had studied various scriptural sources and provided context for the uses of the U&T. You also erred there in misunderstanding the distinction I was making between the use of the U&T and that of the seer stone. (you still haven’t responded to that)

you have yet to even attempt an entry into apologetics here. You’re just hurling insults and making unfounded allegations…like most mormons do in these situations since your the world knows that there is no BoM archeology or science or anything else besides the LDS 'testimony" to make one believe in that piece of fiction.

 

[PattyPryor]

I know this sounds mean but I’m happy A Pac is gone …

he hurted my feelings

 

[Lehl]

SIGH

Well, I can’t say I’m surprised . I was certainly HOPING he could finally control himself this time.

The ironic thing is that if a Catholic went onto the Mormon Apologetics Discussion Board and even had ONE post similar to what he did here, they would have immediately banned them. It is a much smaller board (maybe 25 regular posters) so they have the time and control to moderate the heck out of it.

We showed as much tolerance as we could.

I still wish him well on his journey.

 

[rmcmullan]

I probably shouldn’t say this but it’s probably for the best. I even wonder if Zerinus wasn’t doing more harm than good to his cause.

 

[majick275]

and i feel the need to apologize to you rmcmullan. a pac really got me angry and I said some things in the heat of the moment that could be seen as disrespectful to you. The fact that they were aimed at a pac is no excuse. I am sorry if I offended you.

 

[Allweather]

I’m sorry to see A Pac banned. I hate to see anyone get banned except for the most outrageous behavior, but this is a matter for the moderators to judge, not me.

Assuming he’s reading this as a guest, I want to thank him for the wrestling match. It wore me out! I learned a lot from it. One thing I learned is that I need to pick my fights more carefully.

More importantly, A Pac helped me to realize that a lot of good Mormons are raw over being abused about their beliefs. I think that this is the source of his anger. I and a few others came at him and his defensive mechanisms went full-screen immediately.

I’ve been praying for A Pac all morning since learning of the ban. I imagine he’s praying for us, too.

 

[rmcmullan]

and i feel the need to apologize to you rmcmullan. a pac really got me angry and I said some things in the heat of the moment that could be seen as disrespectful to you. The fact that they were aimed at a pac is no excuse. I am sorry if I offended you.

No problem, Majick. The Catholic Forums is an excellent forum. If you’ve ever been on some of the other religious forums, particularly on usenet, you’ll really appreciate how good this forum is. Sometimes the hand-to-hand combat gets ugly, I know, but I find it oddly insipiring at times.Although we’re oftimes diagreeing, we are discussing religion and how we approach God and I like that.

 

[Lehl]

Assuming he’s reading this as a guest, I want to thank him for the wrestling match. It wore me out! I learned a lot from it. One thing I learned is that I need to pick my fights more carefully.

You bet you sure do learn a lot wrestling with these guys and it is exhaustive keeping up with all the threads and research you end up having to do. You should try being one of very few Catholics on a Mormon board.

Which is why I finally just had to remove myself as I soon realized that I was neglecting everything else around me for the stupid computer, so I don’t do it anymore. I lurk and read, and sometimes it takes a lot for me NOT to post because I just don’t want to get sucked into it anymore.

Maybe when I have fewer real-life obligations, I can return to it.

 

[Jerusha]

So taking advantage of his sense of humor really worked? When they let their subconscious link with creativity, they usually end up tripping themselves up. Good work, guys.

 

[Kristine1957]

I just wish A Pac would of answered the questions like the use of the seer stone. I would like to know if the mormon church still uses it or if not why? anyone know?