"No War Is Ever Holy"

[abcdefg]

Matt25:

My personal faith, btw, is none of your beeswax. Although it is mentioned in my profile.

This shows your fear for a meaningful discussion. You’re afraid if your religion are known, you’ll have no place in the forum.

You also try to cheat newcomers into believing you’re a Catholic.

 

[KathleenElsie]

IMHO it does not matter who Matt25 is or what he or shee believes. But, I do not believe that it is ever proper to pass oneself off as a believer of any faith when they are not. So it is my hope that the people here are truly who they say they are and are truly trying to understand and find the truth instead of just being argumentative.
But IMHO Marxism is not compatible with Christian beliefs. Utopia will only be on earth after the second comming of the LORD. Total equality will be there then. Not until.

 

[krokal]

For those who try and justify todays wars by comparing them to war in the OT, I ask you, when is the last tiem God commanded you to go to war? Have there been holy wars? I’m inclined to think so. Have there been any since God asked the Israelis to fight before Christ came? I’m inclined to think not.

As far as striving establishing a utopia, Kathleen, what is it that you think we are supposed to do on this earth? Is our misison not to bring about the Kingdom of God?

 

[gilliam]

Kaleb Kroger:

For those who try and justify todays wars by comparing them to war in the OT, I ask you, when is the last tiem God commanded you to go to war? Have there been holy wars? I’m inclined to think so. Have there been any since God asked the Israelis to fight before Christ came? I’m inclined to think not.

You need to read my post #58

 

[abcdefg]

Kaleb Kroger:

For those who try and justify todays wars by comparing them to war in the OT…
As far as striving establishing a utopia, Kathleen, what is it that you think we are supposed to do on this earth? Is our misison not to bring about the Kingdom of God?

We don’t justify wars by comparing them to war to OT wars, we have just war doctrines. Sadly you’re a Protestant and you may not agree to Just War Doctrine.

 

[InSearchOfGod]

Far be it from me to judge today’s wars, as I must admit I don’t know all the truths behind them, and I’m certainly not going to trust all the newspapers and media. However, I believe it is right to fight for what is right. Like crushing the head of the snake, you don’t try make peace with the snake. We must oppose what is wrong. Again, far be it from to judge today’s wars though.

 

[Jay74]

There are three facts I believe history shows:

1. History shows that those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.
2. History shows that appeasement doesn’t avoid conflict, it results in a worse conflict later.
3. History shows that you can count on people to not learn from history.

The relevant point here is that the notion that “war is never the answer” is, quite franky, utter nonsense. Now, war often isn’t the answer, but to say it never is would be to guarantee victory for evil.

The “question” of some of the greatest evils weren’t “answered” until war ended them. Slavery, the Holocaust, countless tyrannies, countless genocides, to name a few.

Over a decade of resolutions didn’t stop the Hussein torture chambers, rape rooms, and genocides–war did. Staying out of WWII didn’t shut down the concentration camps, war did. Legislation didn’t end slavery, war did.

On the other hand, war could have stopped hundreds of thousands of murders in Rwanda, but we adopted the solution then that many advocate now. Hundreds of thousands of innocents are dead because we adopted pacifism instead of force.

I’m not a war monger (a term used to discredit someone without intellectual discussion, since “peace” sounds too noble). I don’t much like war. However, I hate evil and genocide more than war. Evil stalks this world because “moral” people won’t summon the courage to stop it.

The terrorists and tyrants we a fighting now have been murdering innocents for years. The minute we do something about it, suddenly people are upset.

I wish there was never a need for war, but you can be certain than when there is, there will be more animosity directed at the good than at the evil. I guess its safer to protest an American soldier than a jihadist.

I can fully understand why someone might not like President Bush, but its downright shameful that he is hated more than Saddam Hussein.

Of course, this isn’t new. There once was an innocent who died on a cross, while the multitudes chose to free a murderer instead due to their hatred of Jesus rather than anything he had done wrong. The world has never distinguished between guilt and innocence, but by things I can’t quite understand.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Originally Posted by abcdefg
btw your profile says your religion is catholic, did you just forget to put the “c” in upper case? just curious.

Matt25:

No I did not.

No no no. :tsktsk: I object to this deception. You have attempted to gain credibility for your lengthy and out-of-context quotes from our Popes by saying in your profile that you are catholic – small ‘c.’ And this while promoting – indeed flogging – an organization which stands for ‘women’s reproductive rights.’

Women’s reproductive rights include abortion among a whole range of practices which violate Catholic – with a big ‘C’ – teaching.

What I request is that you delete ‘catholic’ with a small ‘c’ from your profile and state your religion instead. There is nothing wrong with you stating a religion other than Catholicism. But there is a lot wrong with you leading people to believe – by means of a euphemism – that you are Catholic when you are not.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Originally Posted by Jay74
Matt25, I have a question, and I’m not being a smarty pants, its a sincere and honest question. Which do you fear more, American power or terrorism?

Matt25:

Which of them has used weapons of mass destruction against civillian cities?

The terrorists. But you might want to try giving a straight answer yourself instead of persisting with your rhetorical – and presumptuous – questions.

So this is what it would look like:

Matt, which do you fear more, American power or terrorism? Choose one of the following answers:

a) American power
b) terrorism

Please give reasons for your choice, without quoting the tome of the day.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

I don’t think ETA or the Tamil Tigers think of me as an infidel.

Why would the ETA or the Tamil Tigers not think of you as an infidel? Please give reasons.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

My personal faith, btw, is none of your beeswax. Although it is mentioned in my profile.

And because you mention it – deceptively – in your profile, you have made it our business.

catholicism with a small ‘c’ is not a religion; it is a term for universality.

So Matt, given that you have not claimed Catholicism as ‘catholic’ then what religion do you claim to be ‘catholic’?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

People who justify the mass murder of civillians terrify me.

So terrorists terrify you? That’s logical.

Matt25:

The children and babies incinerated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not attack anyone.

The object of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings was not to incinerate children and babies.

The object of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings was to end the Pacific War. Specifically before the subsequent winter took 5 million lives.

This object was different from say the object of the ends justifies the means which was used by Saddam Hussein in the gassing of the Kurds and different from say the object of gratuitous violence which occurred in Honduras during the Nicaraguan war. Both those objects included the conscious, deliberate, direct harm to innocents.

Children and babies were incinerated because the Japanese military and the manufacturers of munitions and materiels embedded themselves in the civilian population and because much of the civilian population did not evacuate the cities when warned to do so by the Americans.

If the Japanese military and munitions/materiels manufacturers had been located in the wildnerness far away from civilian population, the object (to end the War) would not have changed but no harm would have ensued to the civilian population.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

That would be the same level of proof that was so convincing about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Faulty analogy.

Matt25:

Actually it was my whimsical tribute to the punctuational style of Cormac McCarthy author of “All the Pretty Horses”.

Fallacy of intention. catholic with a small ‘c’ is a term referring to universality. Catholic with a big ‘C’ is a term referring to religion. Those are the common understandings. Your small ‘c’ reference is given without context – unlike McCarthy – and so the common understanding holds.

Matt25:

Does any of this make war holy?

Is jihad holy?

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

And this while promoting – indeed flogging – an organization which stands for ‘women’s reproductive rights.’

Women’s reproductive rights include abortion among a whole range of practices which violate Catholic – with a big ‘C’ – teaching.

I have promoted no such organisation. I have never promoted any such organisation. I do not support abortion.

You are referring to my support for the Millennium Development Goals. That discussion is in the news forum please refrain from polluting the waters with your irrelevant and untruthful intervention here.

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

Why would the ETA or the Tamil Tigers not think of you as an infidel? Please give reasons.

Most ETA members are Catholic, or catholic, most Tigers are Hindu.

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

The object of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings was not to incinerate children and babies.

The object of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings was to end the Pacific War. Specifically before the subsequent winter took 5 million lives.

Children and babies were incinerated because the Japanese military and the manufacturers of munitions and materiels embedded themselves in the civilian population and because much of the civilian population did not evacuate the cities when warned to do so by the Americans.

If the Japanese military and munitions/materiels manufacturers had been located in the wildnerness far away from civilian population, the object (to end the War) would not have changed but no harm would have ensued to the civilian population.

There was little or no manafacture of military munitions or materials in Hiroshima or Nagasaki at the time of the destruction of these cities. The inhabitants of Hiroshima were not warned to evacuate that city by the Americans Let me remind you what my Church declared at Vatican II also posted above. Point 80 of Gaudium et Spes states unequivocally
** Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.**

 

[Evan]

Matt25:

The inhabitants of Hiroshima were not warned to evacuate that city by the Americans

I’ve seen some of the pamplets dropped the day before the bombing. They warn the inhabitants that an attack will occur the next day and they should leave the city. Engish on one side, Japanese on the other.

Of course I could not read the Japanese side, but have assumed it is a translation of the English side.

 

[Matt25]

Evan:

I’ve seen some of the pamplets dropped the day before the bombing. They warn the inhabitants that an attack will occur the next day and they should leave the city. Engish on one side, Japanese on the other.

Of course I could not read the Japanese side, but have assumed it is a translation of the English side.

There were leaflets dropped after Hiroshima had been destroyed warning the Japanese that -
"We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29’s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.

“We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city.”

But I have not tracked down any information about prior the bombing.

Would you evacuate your city if al Quaeda threatened to destroy a city somewhere sometime?

 

[Evan]

Matt25:

But I have not tracked down any information about prior the bombing.

Would you evacuate your city if al Quaeda threatened to destroy a city somewhere sometime?

I saw the pamphlets at a museum in Baker City OR. In their WWII exhibit.

al Quaeda make a lot of threats with little or no connection between one group and the next. I could not take a threat seriously. However, if a country that the US had been fighting for a couple years, where we were being occationally bombed, threatened… I might do that. I have never lived in a country that was the target of an organized war.

If Israel threatened to us Nukes and I was in Palestine…sure, I’d go.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

I have promoted no such organisation. I have never promoted any such organisation. I do not support abortion.

Matt25:

You are referring to my support for the Millennium Development Goals.

Ah!

Matt25:

That discussion is in the news forum please refrain from polluting the waters with your irrelevant and untruthful intervention here.

That’s a bit harsh, Matt.