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Sir_Knight
Guest
I just want to add that I am not arguing that the “hydroplate theory” is true. I am arguing that the biblical story of the flood is true and the “hydroplate theory” might be one possible explanation for it.
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O
Orogeny
Guest
You noted previously that you hadn’t researched the “theory”, only seen it on a tv show. If you want to know what makes him a crank, research the “theory”.
No, according to Sungenis, it is an infallible teaching of the Church.
But we know now that drinking radioactive water can cause health problems. We learned. We know what to expect when we expose people to radiation that way. We also know that Walt Brown’s hydroplate theory doesn’t even begin to pass muster because of known physical conditions of the crust. This is not just a bunch of athiestic, evil geologists that are out to destroy God. The list of people who understand that Walt Brown is a crank include almost every Christian scientist who has looked into “hydroplate theory”.
Peace
Tim
O
Orogeny
Guest
Nope, it’s not. I have no problem with your belief in a historic global flood, but there if there was, it left absolutely no evidence that it existed. Since even local floods leave evidence, I don’t believe a global flood occurred.
Peace
Tim
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Maybe there were other factors about the crust which we are not aware of that might have made it possible. Just like with the bumble bee example. I don’t know where it stands now but I recall learning all through grammer school and high school that a bumble bee couldn’t fly according to science but they obviously do. Obviously, science is missing one or more pieces of the puzzle. Same thing might be the case with Walt’s theory.
And even if his theory is incorrect, I still believe that there indeed was a great flood caused by other means.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
There are many stories in the bible that people thought were symbolic until physical evidence was found to support it.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
IMHO Noah and his ark is a story that relates a spiritual truth.
The entire book of Genesis taken strictly literal presents problems.
Those problems have cause some Christians to become Atheists when the problems were brought to their attention.
I know, because I am personally responsible for some of those becoming atheist.
Mind you, it was not my intention that they become atheist.
When the shallow mind that believes the book is literal and you show the problems held within it and then the mind becomes deep, it sees christianity as a fabrication being no more believable then’s Homer’s works.
The entire book of Genesis taken strictly literal presents problems.
Those problems have cause some Christians to become Atheists when the problems were brought to their attention.
I know, because I am personally responsible for some of those becoming atheist.
Mind you, it was not my intention that they become atheist.
When the shallow mind that believes the book is literal and you show the problems held within it and then the mind becomes deep, it sees christianity as a fabrication being no more believable then’s Homer’s works.
O
Orogeny
Guest
It isn’t just a matter of missing knowledge about the crust. There is basic physics. The story of Noah doesn’t include eveyone being scalded to death by the superheated water spewing from the eath, yet that is what would happen because the water would be superheated. That isn’t just a matter of understanding the crust, that is basic physics. The temperature gradient in the crust is 1 deg Celsius for every 30 meters. That is confirmed everytime an oil/gas well is drilled or a new mining shaft is advanced.
Well, bumblebees do still fly and I don’t think that science ever said that they couldn’t. sciencenews.org/articles/20040911/mathtrek.asp
Peace
Tim
M
misslollipops
Guest
2 Timothy 3
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
con6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain trol over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
Paul’s Charge to Timothy
10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Turning people into atheists?
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Why do all of these strange Ideas originate in Germany or from somebody from Germany?
Martin Luther and his heresies.
Adolf Hitler and his theories.
The Bumblebee can’t fly theory…
B
buffalo
Guest
The total volume of ground water is 50 times that of surface water.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
And it requires a God Breathed Magiesterium to properly interpret what is written to ascertain whether something is Hyper-Literal, Literal, Partial-Literal, Figurative, or Symbolic
Those that became Atheist became such because of the initial teachings that recieved from false teachers, those being their protestant pastors. When confronted with the truth, which they could not possibly handle, they opted to be a disbeliever instead.
Since then I have to tread lightly and precocious around my Protestant sister, since she is shallow of mind. When I hit her with some scripture that counters her own protestant belief, she nearly short circuits. Her mind can not handle what is presented because of the life long (what I would call ‘Brain washing’) protestant programming.
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Teflon93
Guest
As Hillaire Belloc has noted, it is because Germany existed outside of Western civilization for most of its history. Indeed, that’s the case with ALL Protestant countries.
If you overlay religious denominations on a map of Europe along with the boundaries of the Roman Empire, you’ll see his point.
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SeanTom
Guest
Many Christians today claim that the Flood of Noah’s time was only a local flood. They claim it was confined to somewhere around the Mesopotamian region and never really covered the whole earth. The discovery of a layer of mud by archaeologists in the Middle East and more recently the finding of evidence for a local flood in the Black Sea have both been claimed as evidence for a (local) biblical flood.
People generally want a local flood because they have accepted the widely believed evolutionary history of the earth, which interprets the fossils under our feet as the history of the sequential appearance of life over eons of time.
Scientists once understood the fossils (which are buried in water-carried sediments of mud and sand) to be mostly the result of the great Flood. Those who now accept the evolutionary billions of years of gradual accumulation of fossils have, in their way of thinking, explained away the evidence for the Flood—hence their belief in a local flood, or none at all. If they would think from a biblical perspective, they would see the abundant evidence for the Flood. As someone quipped, ‘I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’
Those who accept the eons of time with its fossil accumulation also, perhaps unwittingly, rob the Fall of its serious consequences. They put the fossils, which testify of disease, suffering and death before mankind appeared; before Adam and Eve sinned and brought death and suffering into the world. In doing this they also undermine the meaning of the death and resurrection of Christ. Such a scenario also robs God’s description of His finished creation as ‘very good’ of all meaning (see Did God really take six days?).
Some preachers will say they believe in a ‘universal’ or ‘worldwide’ flood, but really they do not believe that the flood covered the whole earth. They side step the clear teaching of the Bible, while giving the appearance of believing it, by cleverly redefining words. They mean ‘universal’ and ‘worldwide’ only in terms of an imagined limited extent of human habitation at the time. They imagine that people lived only (say) in a valley in Mesopotamia and so the flood could kill all the people without being global in extent.
Biblical evidence for the global Flood
The local flood idea is totally inconsistent with the Bible, as the following points demonstrate:
The need for the Ark
If the Flood were local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and escaped. Traveling just 20 km per day, Noah and his family could have traveled over 3,000 km in six months. God could have simply warned Noah to flee, as He did for Lot in Sodom.
The size of the Ark
If the Flood were local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all the different kinds of land vertebrate animals in the world? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, or only domestic animals, the Ark could have been much smaller.1
The need for animals to be on the Ark
If the Flood were local, why did God send the animals to the Ark to escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce those kinds even if they had all died in the local area. Or He could have sent them to a non-flooded region.
The need for birds to be on the Ark
If the Flood were local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range. Birds can fly several hundred kilometers in one day.
(To be continued)
People generally want a local flood because they have accepted the widely believed evolutionary history of the earth, which interprets the fossils under our feet as the history of the sequential appearance of life over eons of time.
Scientists once understood the fossils (which are buried in water-carried sediments of mud and sand) to be mostly the result of the great Flood. Those who now accept the evolutionary billions of years of gradual accumulation of fossils have, in their way of thinking, explained away the evidence for the Flood—hence their belief in a local flood, or none at all. If they would think from a biblical perspective, they would see the abundant evidence for the Flood. As someone quipped, ‘I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’
Those who accept the eons of time with its fossil accumulation also, perhaps unwittingly, rob the Fall of its serious consequences. They put the fossils, which testify of disease, suffering and death before mankind appeared; before Adam and Eve sinned and brought death and suffering into the world. In doing this they also undermine the meaning of the death and resurrection of Christ. Such a scenario also robs God’s description of His finished creation as ‘very good’ of all meaning (see Did God really take six days?).
Some preachers will say they believe in a ‘universal’ or ‘worldwide’ flood, but really they do not believe that the flood covered the whole earth. They side step the clear teaching of the Bible, while giving the appearance of believing it, by cleverly redefining words. They mean ‘universal’ and ‘worldwide’ only in terms of an imagined limited extent of human habitation at the time. They imagine that people lived only (say) in a valley in Mesopotamia and so the flood could kill all the people without being global in extent.
Biblical evidence for the global Flood
The local flood idea is totally inconsistent with the Bible, as the following points demonstrate:
The need for the Ark
If the Flood were local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and escaped. Traveling just 20 km per day, Noah and his family could have traveled over 3,000 km in six months. God could have simply warned Noah to flee, as He did for Lot in Sodom.
The size of the Ark
If the Flood were local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all the different kinds of land vertebrate animals in the world? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, or only domestic animals, the Ark could have been much smaller.1
The need for animals to be on the Ark
If the Flood were local, why did God send the animals to the Ark to escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce those kinds even if they had all died in the local area. Or He could have sent them to a non-flooded region.
The need for birds to be on the Ark
If the Flood were local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range. Birds can fly several hundred kilometers in one day.
(To be continued)
B
buffalo
Guest
Currently 3/4 of the earth is flooded.
B
buffalo
Guest
Scientists - answer this question.
If the earth was struck by an object and jarred violently, what would happen to the ocean waters and ground water?
Keep in mind the moon’s tidal influence.
If the earth was struck by an object and jarred violently, what would happen to the ocean waters and ground water?
Keep in mind the moon’s tidal influence.
S
SeanTom
Guest
(Continued from previous post)
The judgment was universal
If the Flood were local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not have been affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin. It boggles the mind to believe that, after all those centuries since creation, no one had migrated to other parts—or that people living on the periphery of such a local flood would not have moved to the adjoining high ground rather than be drowned. Jesus believed that the Flood killed everyone not on the Ark (Matt. 24:37–39).
Of course those who want to believe in a local flood generally say that the world is old and that people were here for many tens of thousands of years before the Flood. If this were the case, it is inconceivable that all the people could have fitted in a localized valley in Mesopotamia, for example, or that they had not migrated further afield as the population grew.
The Flood was a type of the judgment to come
What did Christ mean when He likened the coming world judgment to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matt. 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? In 2 Peter 3, the coming judgment by fire is likened to the former judgment by water in Noah’s Flood. A partial judgment in Noah’s day would mean a partial judgment to come.
The waters were above the mountains
If the Flood were local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Gen. 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It could not rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.
The duration of the Flood
Noah and company were on the Ark for one year and 10 days (Gen. 7:11, 8:14)—surely an excessive amount of time for any local flood? It was more than seven months before the tops of any mountains became visible. How could they drift around in a local flood for that long without seeing any mountains?
God’s promise broken?
If the Flood were local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a Flood again. There have been huge ‘local’ floods in recent times: in Bangladesh, for example, where 80% of that country has been inundated, or Europe in 2002.
All people are descendants of Noah and his family
The genealogies of Adam (Gen. 4:17–26, 5:1–31) and Noah (Gen. 10:1–32) are exclusive—they tell us that all the pre-Flood people came from Adam and all the post-Flood people came from Noah. The descendants of Noah were all living together at Babel and refusing to ‘fill the earth,’ as they had been commanded (Gen. 9:1). So God confused their one language into many and scattered them (Gen. 11:1–9).
There is striking evidence that all peoples on earth have come from Noah, found in the Flood stories from many cultures around the world—North and South America, South Sea Islands, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Japan, China, India, the Middle East, Europe and Africa. Hundreds of such stories have been gathered.3 The stories closest to the area of dispersion from Babel are nearest in detail to the biblical account—for example, the Gilgamesh epic.
As to God’s covenant with Noah and all generations:
Gen. 8:2 “……the Lord said in his heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done’” Also Gen 9:11-12: “I establish my covenant with you that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
In my opinion, the above tells me that God, in His covenant, stated that He will not ever again destroy every living creature by the waters of a flood. Notice that He did not say that He would never destroy every living creature by any other means, nor did He say that he would not destroy some of the people who are living an evil life, either by waters of a flood or any other means.
The judgment was universal
If the Flood were local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not have been affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin. It boggles the mind to believe that, after all those centuries since creation, no one had migrated to other parts—or that people living on the periphery of such a local flood would not have moved to the adjoining high ground rather than be drowned. Jesus believed that the Flood killed everyone not on the Ark (Matt. 24:37–39).
Of course those who want to believe in a local flood generally say that the world is old and that people were here for many tens of thousands of years before the Flood. If this were the case, it is inconceivable that all the people could have fitted in a localized valley in Mesopotamia, for example, or that they had not migrated further afield as the population grew.
The Flood was a type of the judgment to come
What did Christ mean when He likened the coming world judgment to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matt. 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? In 2 Peter 3, the coming judgment by fire is likened to the former judgment by water in Noah’s Flood. A partial judgment in Noah’s day would mean a partial judgment to come.
The waters were above the mountains
If the Flood were local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Gen. 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It could not rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.
The duration of the Flood
Noah and company were on the Ark for one year and 10 days (Gen. 7:11, 8:14)—surely an excessive amount of time for any local flood? It was more than seven months before the tops of any mountains became visible. How could they drift around in a local flood for that long without seeing any mountains?
God’s promise broken?
If the Flood were local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a Flood again. There have been huge ‘local’ floods in recent times: in Bangladesh, for example, where 80% of that country has been inundated, or Europe in 2002.
All people are descendants of Noah and his family
The genealogies of Adam (Gen. 4:17–26, 5:1–31) and Noah (Gen. 10:1–32) are exclusive—they tell us that all the pre-Flood people came from Adam and all the post-Flood people came from Noah. The descendants of Noah were all living together at Babel and refusing to ‘fill the earth,’ as they had been commanded (Gen. 9:1). So God confused their one language into many and scattered them (Gen. 11:1–9).
There is striking evidence that all peoples on earth have come from Noah, found in the Flood stories from many cultures around the world—North and South America, South Sea Islands, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Japan, China, India, the Middle East, Europe and Africa. Hundreds of such stories have been gathered.3 The stories closest to the area of dispersion from Babel are nearest in detail to the biblical account—for example, the Gilgamesh epic.
As to God’s covenant with Noah and all generations:
Gen. 8:2 “……the Lord said in his heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done’” Also Gen 9:11-12: “I establish my covenant with you that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
In my opinion, the above tells me that God, in His covenant, stated that He will not ever again destroy every living creature by the waters of a flood. Notice that He did not say that He would never destroy every living creature by any other means, nor did He say that he would not destroy some of the people who are living an evil life, either by waters of a flood or any other means.
O
Orogeny
Guest
S
steveandersen
Guest
Just because it is referenced in scripture doesn’t mean that it literally happened.
I could say that something was like a scene out of Romeo and Juliet because I expect my listeners to be familiar with the story and understand the idiom. That doesn’t mean that I think there was a couple on a balcony in Italy once.
B
buffalo
Guest
C’mon Orogeny!
Let’s assume the earth was shifted at just the right acceleration to cause a massive tidal shift. Along with the tidal shift comes a sort of oozing of the groundwater. This oozing and shift does not have the agitation that a “fast flood” would have , rather like a glass of water being filled very slowly.
Is it possible?
S
steveandersen
Guest
I’m an engineer will that do?
Depends on the size and speed of the object and where it hits.
Ground water probably wouldn’t be affected much unless it was a very large strike on land in which case there would be some sent up in the debris cloud.
In the oceans there could be tsunamis and flooding of adjoining areas. A large enough impact could even vaporize some water and send up large clouds that would rain out all over the planet (assuming they didn’t reach escape velocity)
BUT if you are suggesting that the story of Noah is the result of an asteroid impact there is just no evidence for that.
I’m not sure what the tides have to do with it
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