Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

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God created the world and everything was good. (Gen. 1) But then it wasn’t all that good, apparently, for humankind must have had a flaw, since Adam and Eve sinned. Oh - maybe they didn’t yet have the knowledge of good and evil, so as Kierkegaard points out, maybe they didn’t understand that they were sinning at the time???
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Anyway, things went from bad to worse - and, lo, God regretted that he had created humankind, so he decided to drown them all. Apparently God had made a mistake. But one man - Noah - was okay, so he told him to build an ark. The dimensions seem much too small for two, male and female, of every species. And their food, by the way - for the 150 days that the waters remained on the face of the earth! I also wonder how he got two of each kind into that ark - and why he didn't kill the two mosquitoes, fleas, cockroaches, rats, etc., when he had the chance. And having been raised in farm country, wow - they had to do a lot of work to keep that ark clean!

 So, God drowned everybody but Noah and his family - every man, woman and child, every pregnant woman and her unborn child, etc. Why do I have a feeling that this was against the Ten Commandments, among other things. Rather more like a mammoth holocaust ala Hitler and Stalin than the gospel of Jesus. 

  All this flatly contradicts what I believe about God. The Bible, after all, assures us that he is merciful, forgiving, loving. Besides there are so many other parts of this story that contradict history, the Christian gospel, and common sense. Believe it? Give me a break! 

  Okay, it may be a legend based on a big flood, and there is a moral in it. But that doesn't allow me to believe for a moment that my God would drown all those people, even little babies and the unborn. I am always shocked when otherwise decent people believe such wild stuff. Maybe they have a very closed mind? But I'll let God do the judging, as I'm sure he's nothing like the Jehovah who drowned all those folks in the time of Noah. 

  Sorry, God bless everybody.
a little reflection reveals that the ten commandments came into being because they were necessitated as things were not okay or good by God who created and can only accept everything as good or very good as is only possible through Jesus Christ - twinc
 
  1. If Christ had a favorite group, perhaps it was the Samaritans. It was the Samaritan and not the pious Jews who is the hero of his famed parable. It is the Samaritan who returns to thank him for healing. But I don’t believe God (hence Christ) has a chosen people. That would be discrimination and my God would not participate in that. Old-time preachers sometimes quoted scripture to uphold slavery and to declare that Black people were inferior. I reject their scriptural verses as well as any others that appear to support the theory that one race or ethnic group is special to God.
    1. Scholarship had far advanced beyond the old literalist view that "if it’s in the Bible it’s true. The first 11 chapters of Genesis are largely a mixture of legend, folklore, fact and myth. Read such book as “Hebrew Origins” by Theophile Meek. An eye-opener. This doesn’t negate Christ or Christianity. It simply provides a deeper understanding of scripture that removes the need to accept each and every verse as ‘gospel truth’.
    2. True. God is not all sunshine. But I will not believe that God would drown all of humanity, includingt innocent babies, even in the womb. Or, that God ordered Joshua, Saul and others to slaughter whole cities and tribes. This would make like a Hitler, a Stalin or a Mao. God would not contradict his own moral law.
    Fundamentalism - in both its Catholic and Protestant form - is an enemy of intelligent religion in this era of new historical discoveries, scientific research, and a refusal to check our brains elsewhere when we go to church or read the Bible. No wonder the ‘unchurched’ increase, that 1/3 of all Catholics have left the church. What rational and well-informed person will swallow tales that contradict morality, common sense, and historic integrity? If we take early Genesis seriously, Adam and Eve were created about 4000 BC. We know that humankind goes back thousands of years prior to that.

    Falling back on “if we pick and choose where does this lead us” is an impressive argument, but if I did not pick and choose when it comes to parts of scripture I would have to throw the whole thing out. Just too much that is unbelievable.

    But if you can believe it all, fine. I hope the church will gradually accept those who have honest doubts. I personally find no sin in that. Honesty is a key virtue.
 
i know this is not very scientific… but there’s just something about the Bible that tells you its true…

and if that is not enough… Post 2 is a great argument for the Flood being actual, not fictional… Why would the writers of the Bible write this story as though it really happened if it didnt’?? I think that answer provided (Post 1) is absurd and that person seems to have lost his faith…

i think it would be VERY arrogant and presumptous for writers of the Bible to say thus and so happend and GOD did thus and so… when that really didn’t happen…

the best argument is that Jesus spoke of the Flood…

or do some people say that Jesus didn’t really “happen” either…

well, there are plenty of history books that prove that, not just the Bible…

people believe George Washington crossed the Delaware… don’t question that one bit…

but when it comes to the Bible… :rolleyes:
 
  1. If Christ had a favorite group, perhaps it was the Samaritans. It was the Samaritan and not the pious Jews who is the hero of his famed parable. It is the Samaritan who returns to thank him for healing. But I don’t believe God (hence Christ) has a chosen people. .
havent finished the whole post… got stuck on this…

God had a chosen peole, the Jews…

now his chosen are the Catholics…

ok… ok… its not as simple as that, i know…

but his chosen people are those who love Jesus and no Church focuses on Jesus moe than the Catholic Church… i ought to know… i have been in both Catholic & non-C churches…

anyhow… God’'s chosen people today are those who love Jesus… He choses those who choose HIM
 
If you have been in Catholic and non-Catholic churches, how can you say that Catholics love Jesus more? I have been to both, too, and Jesus is very much the focus of evangelical congregations. In some ways, he is more the focus as so little attention is paid there to Mary, the Pope, the Saints, etc. It’s always and altogether Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…
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This is why I think Christians should be more respectful of one another than is often exhibited here - and more respectful of differences of opinion when it comes to certain doctrines and practices. The Bible isn't that clear-cut. Sorry, but any honest reader of scripture knows that. Catholics accept the church's interpretation. Protestants permit different believers to have different views. What about infant baptism, for example? I believe in it. But Jesus was Baptized at 30, probably by immersion. I would permit Christians to believe either way, as there is scripture that may appear to support both.

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children.
 
If you have been in Catholic and non-Catholic churches, how can you say that Catholics love Jesus more? I have been to both, too, and Jesus is very much the focus of evangelical congregations. In some ways, he is more the focus as so little attention is paid there to Mary, the Pope, the Saints, etc. It’s always and altogether Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…
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This is why I think Christians should be more respectful of one another than is often exhibited here - and more respectful of differences of opinion when it comes to certain doctrines and practices. The Bible isn't that clear-cut. Sorry, but any honest reader of scripture knows that. Catholics accept the church's interpretation. Protestants permit different believers to have different views. What about infant baptism, for example? I believe in it. But Jesus was Baptized at 30, probably by immersion. I would permit Christians to believe either way, as there is scripture that may appear to support both.

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children.
The Bible wasn’t written FOR the church (believers) it was written BY the Church (the Catholic Church to be exact).

And yet we have two groups. Those who heed the interpretation of the Church that wrote the book and those who feel they can interpret the book at will seperate from the Church that wrote it. Interesting… wouldn’t you say?
 
Dear Roy,
Falling back on “if we pick and choose where does this lead us” is an impressive argument, but if I did not pick and choose when it comes to parts of scripture I would have to throw the whole thing out.
‘I don’t like this Bible passage: I’ll ditch it!’=intellectual arrogance, pure and simple. It’s easy to misinterpret verses or take them out of context. This is especially so when one sets out with a predetermined mindset, such as ‘I’m going to hunt down all the stories I don’t like and SCRAP THEM!’ Consider reading back over them with expert commentary. Pray for humility to help you find meaning in difficult passages. It does help.
Old-time preachers sometimes quoted scripture to uphold slavery and to declare that Black people were inferior. I reject their scriptural verses as well as any others that appear to support the theory that one race or ethnic group is special to God.
‘If someone justifies a nefarious belief with a Bible verse, that Bible verse must be rejected.’ Rubbish. It’s a case of baby and bathwater. If someone took Our Lord’s command to love each other equally as brothers and sisters as a justification for philandering and incest, would that mean we should chuck out that command? NO!
What rational and well-informed person will swallow tales that contradict morality, common sense, and historic integrity?
I would remind you that science and history are built on scholarly consensus, which is constantly being changed or challenged by new findings. Yesterday’s Higher Criticism is today’s scrap paper. One simply can’t conclude dogmatically, based on shifting, subjective human opinion, that part of the Bible is ‘proven wrong’.

God bless,
Mike

Marce et Marcelliane: ora pro nobis!
 
I would remind you that science and history are built on scholarly consensus, which is constantly being changed or challenged by new findings. Yesterday’s Higher Criticism is today’s scrap paper. One simply can’t conclude dogmatically, based on shifting, subjective human opinion, that part of the Bible is ‘proven wrong’.

God bless,
Mike

Marce et Marcelliane: ora pro nobis!
Your comment is why I refer to the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4

One can use Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

The human person is the apple of God’s eye.

,
 
Thanks for the link Grannymh,

Are you referring me to any particular section of the Catechism?
Sorry, but you didn’t quite specify what your point was, in response to my comment on ‘scholarly consensus’.

Cheerio,
Mike

‘Deum verum ac vivum, qui universa creavit, adoro semper et colo’
–S. Alban, martyr in Britain 209 A.D. (whose feast it is today).
 
The more I read postings at CAF, the more the difference between Catholics becomes clear to me. There are those who are adament in following everything the Church declares to be true, who firmly believe that the Church alone has a lock on spiritual truth, that it is the one infallible source of correct doctrine and ritual. They are likely literalists when it comes to scripture, also - Catholic fundamentalists.
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Then there are those who have trouble, intellectually or maybe psychologically, too, with accepting without their independent review and examination, what the Church declares essential truth. They feel the right and even the responsibility to examine the Church's teachings to find that they are also in sync with legitimate history, modern science and - most illusive of all - common sense or reasonable logic.

 To me, the story of Noah's Ark as provided in Genesis contradicts legitimate history, fights with modern science, and certainly doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. Would God actually regret his Creation which had been declared "good' in Genesis 1? Would he deliberately drown large populations, certainly including babies and other innocents, some unborn? Could Noah and his sons build an ark big enough to hold two of every species and provisions for 150 days when the waters covered the earth? Was there any reasonable way that they could have gathered together two of every species, everything from elephants (and dinosaurs?) to mosquitos, boa costrictors and thousands of varieties of ants, beetles, and butterflies, etc.

 Yes, there must have been a mammoth flood in the Middle East centuries before Christ. But it seems logical that the basic truth of that story was embellished over the years into a myth-like tale with only limited historic truth. The spiritual truth, of course, is that punishment results from sin. It's a parable, at best, and why not let it stand at that and be grateful?

 Keep smiling.
 
Thanks for the link Grannymh,

Are you referring me to any particular section of the Catechism?
I was referring to the Catechism in general as a very useful educational tool regarding Catholicism. It can be difficult with its cross-references in the margins and system of footnotes, but considering everything, it is a good read.

I have entered “Noah” in the search bar, but so far, I have not found specific doctrines or else I missed them. Has anybody else found specific details? Where?
In contrast, the paragraphs about Adam and Eve are very specific and connect to major Catholic doctrines.

Recently, I have been using the Catechism’s “Index of Citations” on page 689. It is a way of finding out which Scripture quotes are being referenced in the paragraphs. In a way, it is working backwards. Unfortunately, I can’t access it on the link I gave you.

Is there another website for the Catechism – somewhere??
Sorry, but you didn’t quite specify what your point was, in response to my comment on ‘scholarly consensus’.
Glad you asked. You will notice that Catholics and other Christians on CAF use a variety of sources for Catholic teachings. Sometimes, there is reference to a consensus of the Early Church Fathers. Sometimes, there are references to various Church documents as if posters are trying to find a democratic type consensus.
The variety of documents in Catholic history can be considered “scholarly.”

The difficulty is that not everyone understands how the visible Church on earth operates regarding its teachings. Another difficulty is that often quotes supporting a position are taken out of context. I simply cut to the chase and consider that the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is the final word. The really interesting thing about this Catechism is that footnotes often cite the original sources for a teaching or the Councils which defined a particular teaching. Scripture is often referenced. I checked the “Index of Citations” and found St. Anselm of Canterbury “Faith seeks understanding.” but not St. Alban. Obviously, St. Augustine was referenced a lot.

I value scholarly consensus. However, Catholicism does not depend on a consensus per se but rather on Divine Revelation as found in Scripture and Tradition. The guarantee of truth is the role of the Holy Spirit.

Please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
The more I read postings at CAF, the more the difference between Catholics becomes clear to me. There are those who are adament in following everything the Church declares to be true, who firmly believe that the Church alone has a lock on spiritual truth, that it is the one infallible source of correct doctrine and ritual. They are likely literalists when it comes to scripture, also - Catholic fundamentalists.

Then there are those who have trouble, intellectually or maybe psychologically, too, with accepting without their independent review and examination, what the Church declares essential truth. They feel the right and even the responsibility to examine the Church’s teachings to find that they are also in sync with legitimate history, modern science and - most illusive of all - common sense or reasonable logic.

To me, the story of Noah’s Ark as provided in Genesis contradicts legitimate history, fights with modern science, and certainly doesn’t make sense for a variety of reasons. Would God actually regret his Creation which had been declared "good’ in Genesis 1? Would he deliberately drown large populations, certainly including babies and other innocents, some unborn? Could Noah and his sons build an ark big enough to hold two of every species and provisions for 150 days when the waters covered the earth? Was there any reasonable way that they could have gathered together two of every species, everything from elephants (and dinosaurs?) to mosquitos, boa costrictors and thousands of varieties of ants, beetles, and butterflies, etc.

Yes, there must have been a mammoth flood in the Middle East centuries before Christ. But it seems logical that the basic truth of that story was embellished over the years into a myth-like tale with only limited historic truth. The spiritual truth, of course, is that punishment results from sin. It’s a parable, at best, and why not let it stand at that and be grateful?

Keep smiling.
Just for fun 😃

Put Noah in the search box for this link: www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Hi Grannymh,

I agree with you. The Roman Catechism gives an authoritative summary of Holy Tradition and Scriptural references. The official Vatican website also has the Catechism, but I don’t know if it’s any better or more searchable than the link you posted.

I was saying that ‘scholarly consensus’ within the historical and scientific disciplines is necessarily changeable, because it is based on the research and theories of fallible humans.

In contrast, the Consensus of the Fathers is infallibly defined by the Church through Scripture and Tradition (and ultimately the Holy Spirit). I agree that the Fathers are the relevant scholarly authority within the field of faith and morals. As you said, this Consensus of the Fathers has not been reached through a ‘democratic’ process of picking through saintly quotations.

The historical personhood of Adam and Eve is affirmed by defined dogma, but this doesn’t apply so much to Noah, which is probably why he doesn’t seem to feature in the Catechism. Personally, I’d stick to what Our Lord and the Apostles said in simple, matter-of-fact words in the NT: that Noah and his family survived a great Flood, and became our ancestors.

My S. Alban quote comes from the Ven. Bede’s History of the English Church and People. They’re probably Alban’s only recorded words, so you needn’t be surprised you found no others!

In Him,
Mike
 
The more I read postings at CAF, the more the difference between Catholics becomes clear to me. There are those who are adament in following everything the Church declares to be true, who firmly believe that the Church alone has a lock on spiritual truth, that it is the one infallible source of correct doctrine and ritual. They are likely literalists when it comes to scripture, also - Catholic fundamentalists.
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Then there are those who have trouble, intellectually or maybe psychologically, too, with accepting without their independent review and examination, what the Church declares essential truth. They feel the right and even the responsibility to examine the Church's teachings to find that they are also in sync with legitimate history, modern science and - most illusive of all - common sense or reasonable logic.

 To me, the story of Noah's Ark as provided in Genesis contradicts legitimate history, fights with modern science, and certainly doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. Would God actually regret his Creation which had been declared "good' in Genesis 1? Would he deliberately drown large populations, certainly including babies and other innocents, some unborn? Could Noah and his sons build an ark big enough to hold two of every species and provisions for 150 days when the waters covered the earth? Was there any reasonable way that they could have gathered together two of every species, everything from elephants (and dinosaurs?) to mosquitos, boa costrictors and thousands of varieties of ants, beetles, and butterflies, etc.

 Yes, there must have been a mammoth flood in the Middle East centuries before Christ. But it seems logical that the basic truth of that story was embellished over the years into a myth-like tale with only limited historic truth. The spiritual truth, of course, is that punishment results from sin. It's a parable, at best, and why not let it stand at that and be grateful?

 Keep smiling.
The modernist claim to symbolic truth obscures the reality of God’s work. If science cannot put God in a laboratory to study Him then why compare God to science here? By definition, God can perform miracles. He can raise people from the dead, give sight to the blind and cleanse lepers. Does He need human instruments or technology to do this? No.

Did Jesus Christ die and rise again as He told His disciples? Did He ascend into heaven as His disciples watched?

Common sense? According to who? Man?

There is a clash of Orthodoxies here. On the one hand, God must act in accordance to man’s understanding. On the other hand, God can create the universe from nothing.

God bless,
Ed
 
Hi Grannymh,

I agree with you. The Roman Catechism gives an authoritative summary of Holy Tradition and Scriptural references. The official Vatican website also has the Catechism, but I don’t know if it’s any better or more searchable than the link you posted.

I was saying that ‘scholarly consensus’ within the historical and scientific disciplines is necessarily changeable, because it is based on the research and theories of fallible humans.

In contrast, the Consensus of the Fathers is infallibly defined by the Church through Scripture and Tradition (and ultimately the Holy Spirit). I agree that the Fathers are the relevant scholarly authority within the field of faith and morals. As you said, this Consensus of the Fathers has not been reached through a ‘democratic’ process of picking through saintly quotations.

The historical personhood of Adam and Eve is affirmed by defined dogma, but this doesn’t apply so much to Noah, which is probably why he doesn’t seem to feature in the Catechism. Personally, I’d stick to what Our Lord and the Apostles said in simple, matter-of-fact words in the NT: that Noah and his family survived a great Flood, and became our ancestors.

My S. Alban quote comes from the Ven. Bede’s History of the English Church and People. They’re probably Alban’s only recorded words, so you needn’t be surprised you found no others!

In Him,
Mike
Here is the e-mail I received from www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
"Our on-line *CCC *does not include the Index of Citations. Unfortunately, the USCCB did not give us permission to add this to our website. Same with the Glossary.

God bless,
John
webmaster"

Ven. Bede’s History of the English Church and People brings back memories – only I can’t remember if the book was in an English or history course. 😃

According to Butler’s Lives of the Saints, Concise Edition Revised and Updated, Edited by Michael Walsh ISBN: 0-06-069299-5 there are three Albans listed in the “Index of Saints” in the back of the book along with their feast day. However, their lives are not described in the body of the book.

Alban, June 21
Alban (or Bartholomew) Roe, January 21
Alban (or Albinus) of Mainz, June 21

According to this book, the original Butler’s Lives of the Saints was published in 1756-9.

Regarding Noah’s Ark, thank you for your comments. I especially liked your reference to the historical personhood of Adam and Eve.

Blessings,
granny

Human nature is unique in all the universe.
 
Those who claim that Noah’s flood is a myth are in the same boat as those who insist it is a historical truth. Both are coming to their conclusions, and both are equally fallible in doing so. What the church teaches is that Scripture can be relied upon for all matters of doctrine. It does not insist on the literal truth of a global flood as the fundamentalists insist upon, nor insist on applying the label of mythology. I would say the clearest answer is that the Church has not definitively stated that a literal ark of Noah exists, nor that it does not. Anyone who makes a claim to be sure either that such an Ark exists, or that it does not, is reaching a conclusion without a basis in either scientific facts, or religious revelation.

Certainty is not a virtue. Arrogance is not proof. If scripture says there was a flood, I shall err in the direction of saying that it is so. I shall not accept an intellectual hand-waving that pretends to know more about the past than is possible to know. It seems reasonable to doubt the historical authenticity of the flood on the basis of scientific or geological evidence, but not on the basis of the existence of other similar myths. Who is to say which myth came first? To assume that the other myths are either proving, or disproving something, is asking too much. We know only that many cultures have this myth, that this myth in its varied forms, is strikingly similar to the story in the bible, which it is reasonable to believe, happened, if it happened at all, a long long time before the book of Genesis was written. That this can prove that the story in Genesis is fundamentally true, or untrue, are both leaps of faulty logic.

Warren
 
I know that I may represent a minority view here on CAF, but I have need for a reasonable religion. I can only accept so much and remain a person of integrity. I see nothing wrong in concluding in one’s mind that the story of Noah’s Ark is a huge embellishment over time on a story based on an actual, historic flood. I don’t believe this demonstrates arrogance. Instead, it represents independent thinking that should be permitted. Does faith require that we vacate our brains and accept things that we cannot in good conscience accept? That is what is expected in a totalitarian system, whether we’re speaking politically or spiritually. Personally, I think it’s a major positive that people of religious commitment think and let think. I can’t believe for a moment that God objects to this. Certainly Christ set the pattern when he took issue with the religious establishment of his day. “Ye have heard it said, but I say unto you…”
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Our faith should set us free, as Christ promised. I feel most free and most excited by my faith when it encourages me to explore and inquire and wonder and question and even doubt here and there, now and then. Is that some sort of sin? I can't believe it is. 

 God bless dedicated people who seek spiritual truth, including those who struggle with doubt. God must rejoice that we care enough to spend time meditating on such matters without automatically conforming to beliefs carved out by others.
 
I know that I may represent a minority view here on CAF, but I have need for a reasonable religion. I can only accept so much and remain a person of integrity. I see nothing wrong in concluding in one’s mind that the story of Noah’s Ark is a huge embellishment over time on a story based on an actual, historic flood. I don’t believe this demonstrates arrogance. Instead, it represents independent thinking that should be permitted. Does faith require that we vacate our brains and accept things that we cannot in good conscience accept? That is what is expected in a totalitarian system, whether we’re speaking politically or spiritually. Personally, I think it’s a major positive that people of religious commitment think and let think. I can’t believe for a moment that God objects to this. Certainly Christ set the pattern when he took issue with the religious establishment of his day. “Ye have heard it said, but I say unto you…”

Our faith should set us free, as Christ promised. I feel most free and most excited by my faith when it encourages me to explore and inquire and wonder and question and even doubt here and there, now and then. Is that some sort of sin? I can’t believe it is.

God bless dedicated people who seek spiritual truth, including those who struggle with doubt. God must rejoice that we care enough to spend time meditating on such matters without automatically conforming to beliefs carved out by others.
In many ways, I am part of your minority. My idea of a reasonable religion is basic Catholicism. Just for fun, put Noah in the search box for this link: www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

The human person is the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
 
I know that I may represent a minority view here on CAF, but I have need for a reasonable religion. I can only accept so much and remain a person of integrity. I see nothing wrong in concluding in one’s mind that the story of Noah’s Ark is a huge embellishment over time on a story based on an actual, historic flood. I don’t believe this demonstrates arrogance. Instead, it represents independent thinking that should be permitted. Does faith require that we vacate our brains and accept things that we cannot in good conscience accept? That is what is expected in a totalitarian system, whether we’re speaking politically or spiritually. Personally, I think it’s a major positive that people of religious commitment think and let think. I can’t believe for a moment that God objects to this. Certainly Christ set the pattern when he took issue with the religious establishment of his day. “Ye have heard it said, but I say unto you…”
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Our faith should set us free, as Christ promised. I feel most free and most excited by my faith when it encourages me to explore and inquire and wonder and question and even doubt here and there, now and then. Is that some sort of sin? I can't believe it is. 

 God bless dedicated people who seek spiritual truth, including those who struggle with doubt. God must rejoice that we care enough to spend time meditating on such matters without automatically conforming to beliefs carved out by others.
Who are these others you are referring to? The Catholic Church has a Magisterium which is the supreme teaching authority for Catholics. They not only proclaim but explain. However, there are certains truths that are spiritual and there are acts of God that happened in time and history. These simply cannot be ignored.

Truths remain truths and suggesting something is totalitarian is like suggesting that God has not given us actual truths. Jesus Christ is not a symbol but God and man - a historical fact.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2
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It appears that we have a different view on this issue. I have spent many years reading the Bible, the Church Fathers, and all sorts of contemporary books and opinions. I watch EWTN with some regularly, subscribe to Our Sunday Visitor, etc etc etc.  I delight in faith, but I cannot go along with the idea that the faithful cannot reexamine doctrines and practices that date back centuries. Just because they go back to ancient times and have the imprimatur of the Church doesn't - in my mind - mean that I can't question them. I guess this means I don't have a comfortable niche in the Catholic Church. I come from a mixed heritage and perhaps this is where it all started. We were encouraged while growing up to think for ourselves, and I guess I'm guilty of that.

 Sorry. But God bless all those who are ready to submit to all the truths as proclaimed by the magisterium. I have a pressing need to weigh such things. I know this can be dismissed as arrogance or whatever, but so be it - Amen. I don't claim to know more than others, but I have a curiosity that causes me to explore, examine, and think. Is that so bad? My faith in Christ is constant, but I guess I don't believe that we are saved by doctrinal correctness or religious affiliation, but through God's amazing grace.
 
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