Nominal Catholics urged to quit church

[maggiemay2u]

That’s terrible advice. What about those saints that had wandered from the church and after years and many prayers of loved ones, finally returned? We would be without St Augustine, for example.

The really cool thing about being Catholic is that whole reconciliation thing. They recant, they confess, they come back, there is much rejoicing in heaven

I don’t recall St Augustine being a fallen away Catholic. I thought he was a godless reprobate. Guess it’s back to my copy of “Lives of the Saints” for some remedial work.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I don’t really see the problem here, it doesn’t sound like they’re targeting ‘cafeteria Catholics’ (who wouldn’t be wanting to leave the Church anyway, would they? That wouldn’t make sense!) but people who have already left the Catholic Church and who don’t want to be included in Church statistics.

"The church counts all those who’ve been baptized as Catholic and lobbies for legislation based on that number, so we’re trying to convey the importance of people expressing that they no longer belong to the church."

Sounds fair enough doesn’t it?

Indeed, this thread has reminded me I need to write a letter to the local bishop and the bishop of the diocese where I was baptised to do the same thing.

Typical response of someone who has unjustifiably gotten angry with God and is cutting off his nose to spite his face by giving God the silent treatment in hopes that others will become angry with Him also.
The great thing about Jesus is that, until your death (which may come like a thief in the night), you can repent like the prodigal son.
You will be welcomed home with open arms.
PRAISE GOD from Whom all blessings flow.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I don’t really see the problem here, it doesn’t sound like they’re targeting ‘cafeteria Catholics’ (who wouldn’t be wanting to leave the Church anyway, would they? That wouldn’t make sense!) but people who have already left the Catholic Church and who don’t want to be included in Church statistics.

"The church counts all those who’ve been baptized as Catholic and lobbies for legislation based on that number, so we’re trying to convey the importance of people expressing that they no longer belong to the church."

Sounds fair enough doesn’t it?

Indeed, this thread has reminded me I need to write a letter to the local bishop and the bishop of the diocese where I was baptised to do the same thing.

Christus Rex, you will remain in my prayers.

 

[Janet_S]

Dissension means to express opposition thorugh action or words.There are dissenting ordained Catholics as well as dissenting laity.

For example, some Priests in the confessional may counsel an individual to take communion when divorced, or when using contraception. Many laity dissent through their use of contraception, their non attendance at Mass every sunday and by not seeking confession. Some also advocate women priests. Some of those will have been misinformed, some of those will have actively decided to follow their own conscience and not Church teachings. The issues where dissension occurs are many and the response is a simple one - that we all rely on the grace of God and none know who is saved and who damned. However, the Church teaches that by dissenting, an individual is putting their soul at risk.

This type of pastoral advice is misleading a lot of Catholics and causing them to hold their subjective consciences as higher authorities than the Magisterium. This is a relatively recent approach to pastoral care that can be traced back to the time of *Humanae Vitae * , when theologians recommended (based on conscience) that Catholics reject the Church’s teaching against contraception.

The biggest problem with the “follow your conscience instead of the Church” advice is that people who are attached to a particular sin or who are defending someone else who is attached to sin don’t always think clearly and will look around for any rationale to continue with their sin. They rationalize sin and call it their “conscience.”

Another problem is that many Catholics cannot distinguish the concept of “conscience” from “opinion.” Conscience is the inner voice we hear from God. Part of it is innate and part of it is learned, but it requires a lawgiver, and that is God. It is not just a hodge podge of our own opinions. Conscience isn’t there to give us permission to do things the Church tells us we shouldn’t do; it is there to urge us to do things that we should do (and don’t really want to do).

Anyway, it never made sense to me for a Catholic to ignore Church teachings and say their conscience rules supreme. If that were true, why does the Church bother to teach anything? There’s a good way to know if the inner voice you’re hearing is your conscience or if it’s merely your opinion; if your the inner voice is telling you to do the things you want to do, it’s probably not your conscience.

There’s a good article about this by Cardinal Pell, “The Inconvenient Conscience.”

firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=195

 

[Migueliones]

Typical response of someone who has unjustifiably gotten angry with God and is cutting off his nose to spite his face by giving God the silent treatment in hopes that others will become angry with Him also.
The great thing about Jesus is that, until your death (which may come like a thief in the night), you can repent like the prodigal son.
You will be welcomed home with open arms.
PRAISE GOD from Whom all blessings flow.

What part of my post came across as angry at God? How can I be angry at something I don’t believe exists?

I (fairly calmly and rationally, I thought ) explained that this is merely notifying people who have already left the Catholic Church (so therefore already “angry at God” ) that there is a process by which they will be removed from their statistics and therefore not be unwillingly used in numbers for CC lobbying.

Sounds fair enough to me.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

What part of my post came across as angry at God? How can I be angry at something I don’t believe exists?

I (fairly calmly and rationally, I thought ) explained that this is merely notifying people who have already left the Catholic Church (so therefore already “angry at God” ) that there is a process by which they will be removed from their statistics and therefore not be unwillingly used in numbers for CC lobbying.

Sounds fair enough to me.

The test of your unbelief comes only when you are literally scared strait. Then the athiests get over their unrecognized anger with God and begin to pray that themselves or their loved ones are saved from a disease or tragedy.

Most athiests do not even recognize that the reason they CHOOSE to be athiests is that they are angry with God about something or other. Your saying that you are not angry is just where you simply are until you realize your need for Him.

From what I understand, every so often the Church does a census of its parish members. So, if you have not registered or reregisteres, I do not believe your name will be in the statistics of your baptismal parish.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In an effort to reduce the church’s political influence, Argentine atheists and feminists are spearheading a drive to get people who were baptized Roman Catholic but disagree with the church’s politics to formally renounce their faith.

The “Not in my Name” Internet campaign, also called Collective Apostasy, encourages people who are Catholic in name only to write to the bishops where they were baptized to officially register that they have left the church.

Latin America is home to about half of the world’s Roman Catholics but many people who were baptized Catholic do not practice the religion.

Read the rest here

Isn’t leaving the Church just what some self-styled “true Catholics” often suggest that those of whom they disapprove should do, though ? ​

 

[Eucharisted]

Isn’t leaving the Church just what some self-styled “true Catholics” often suggest that those of whom they disapprove should do, though ? ​

Only when they’re blinded by anger, Bottle of Beer.

 

[Tsuwano]

The really cool thing about being Catholic is that whole reconciliation thing. They recant, they confess, they come back, there is much rejoicing in heaven

I don’t recall St Augustine being a fallen away Catholic. I thought he was a godless reprobate. Guess it’s back to my copy of “Lives of the Saints” for some remedial work.

Excllent point! Reminds me of the story of the reporter who commented to a monk that leading a holy life must surely be boring. After all, what do holy people have to do all day? “Oh, lots of things,” the monk replied. “We fall, get back up again, fall, get back up again, and so on.”

 

[jen_fla]

yes, just pray for these people. most Catholics i know (myself included) have drifted away from the Church. i am convinced it was the good Lord answering prayers from my family that brought me back.

the attacks against the Church will never stop, so we have to never stop praying.

 

[Migueliones]

The test of your unbelief comes only when you are literally scared strait. Then the athiests get over their unrecognized anger with God and begin to pray that themselves or their loved ones are saved from a disease or tragedy.

Most athiests do not even recognize that the reason they CHOOSE to be athiests is that they are angry with God about something or other. Your saying that you are not angry is just where you simply are until you realize your need for Him.

From what I understand, every so often the Church does a census of its parish members. So, if you have not registered or reregisteres, I do not believe your name will be in the statistics of your baptismal parish.

Oh dear. Perhaps one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read on here but I’ll indulge anyway. (By the by, if I was to write something so arrogant about religious people, delusion, and other similar topics, I have no doubt I’d have a whole horde of people crying blue murder).

Just from my own experience, my best friend has cancer, and my sister was involved in a fatal car crash a year ago in which a friend died and I was left standing at the roadside waiting for the emergency services to arrive. Not once have I prayed as I don’t think there is anything to pray to. Sorry to disappoint.

As it mentioned in the article, the Church lobbies the government saying “We represent X number of Catholics” which includes people like me who are officially recorded as a Catholic. Neither I, nor these Argentinians it seems, want to be included in that number when the Church is pushing for things we disagree with.

 

[cyberwolf001]

What difference does it make to Catholics who believe themselves to be ‘right’ and who judge ‘cafeteria’ or liberal Catholics (i.e. those whose politicsand/or beliefs are not in accordance with the Church) as having left the Church in all but name anyway?According to many ‘faithful’ catholics, those who ask questions and who follow their conscience are not wanted in the church.

Pope Benedict himself has said that he would rather have a small, faithful church than a large church in which people question, dissent and put pressure on the hierarchy.

Seriously, why are you concerned?

This is very true. Many Catholics keep telling me to go ahead and leave.

Oh dear. Perhaps one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read on here but I’ll indulge anyway. (By the by, if I was to write something so arrogant about religious people, delusion, and other similar topics, I have no doubt I’d have a whole horde of people crying blue murder).

Just from my own experience, my best friend has cancer, and my sister was involved in a fatal car crash a year ago in which a friend died and I was left standing at the roadside waiting for the emergency services to arrive. Not once have I prayed as I don’t think there is anything to pray to. Sorry to disappoint.

As it mentioned in the article, the Church lobbies the government saying “We represent X number of Catholics” which includes people like me who are officially recorded as a Catholic. Neither I, nor these Argentinians it seems, want to be included in that number when the Church is pushing for things we disagree with.

Funny thing is I’ve been having moments like Jesus N Cherie talks about actually…

EXCEPT whenever stressed or bad things happen to me I without fail always end up turning to the Runes and the Pagan Gods I use to worship. My confessor insists it is an addiction however but using this guys logic…

Just one reason I do not believe in trying to stuff everyone into a your doing This because of That mold.

 

[brigid12]

Another problem is that many Catholics cannot distinguish the concept of “conscience” from “opinion.” Conscience is the inner voice we hear from God. Part of it is innate and part of it is learned, but it requires a lawgiver, and that is God. It is not just a hodge podge of our own opinions. Conscience isn’t there to give us permission to do things the Church tells us we shouldn’t do; it is there to urge us to do things that we should do (and don’t really want to do).

Anyway, it never made sense to me for a Catholic to ignore Church teachings and say their conscience rules supreme. **If that were true, why does the Church bother to teach anything? There’s a good way to know if the inner voice you’re hearing is your conscience or if it’s merely your opinion; if your the inner voice is telling you to do the things you want to do, it’s probably not your conscience.
**

Love it!

 

[brigid12]

Let us keep all of these people in prayer, especially those who may be tempted to follow such outrageous advice.

:sad_yes:

 

[redrosetea]

Anyone who takes this advice is no longer a Catholic in their hearts anyway, so I wouldn’t get to upset with what people like this do

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Oh dear. Perhaps one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read on here but I’ll indulge anyway. (By the by, if I was to write something so arrogant about religious people, delusion, and other similar topics, I have no doubt I’d have a whole horde of people crying blue murder).

Just from my own experience, my best friend has cancer, and my sister was involved in a fatal car crash a year ago in which a friend died and I was left standing at the roadside waiting for the emergency services to arrive. Not once have I prayed as I don’t think there is anything to pray to. Sorry to disappoint.

As it mentioned in the article, the Church lobbies the government saying “We represent X number of Catholics” which includes people like me who are officially recorded as a Catholic. Neither I, nor these Argentinians it seems, want to be included in that number when the Church is pushing for things we disagree with.

I am not counted as a number in the parish I was Baptized in 39 years ago…or the parish I belonged to growing up. The only parish I am numbered in is the parish I am registered in. My point is, the government would not just allow for random numbers. This is part of the reason why there is a Church registry. To count correctly the number of families and people that belong to the parish for tax reasons along with a number of other ones.

You speak as if no accounting for that number is done by the government. As if a Church who only had 100 parishioners, but had baptized 900 thirty years ago could get away with telling the government that it has 1000 members.
It certainly does not work that way.

And, for the record, I truly wish that were Christian to give you comfort during your time of pain.

 

[irishpatrick]

Dissension means to express opposition thorugh action or words.There are dissenting ordained Catholics as well as dissenting laity.

For example, some Priests in the confessional may counsel an individual to take communion when divorced, or when using contraception. Many laity dissent through their use of contraception, their non attendance at Mass every sunday and by not seeking confession. Some also advocate women priests. Some of those will have been misinformed, some of those will have actively decided to follow their own conscience and not Church teachings. The issues where dissension occurs are many and the response is a simple one - that we all rely on the grace of God and none know who is saved and who damned. However, the Church teaches that by dissenting, an individual is putting their soul at risk.

It would seem, aftering having read several of your posts, that you that have some serious issues with the faith. You seem to have the idea that the Church is a democracy in which the laity can choose what they will follow, or not. Yet, the faith and the church is not, never has been, nor will it ever be a democracy–not so the laity, nor for the clergy, not even the Pope. Every Catholic is bound to follow all teachings of the faith, not just the teachings they agree with.

Recall Jesus (John 6) when giving the long Bread of Life discourse many people could not handle the Lord’s teachings and they left. Jesus did not call for them to come back, He did not change His teachings so that they would be able to accept what He said. No, Jesus let them go because they each had a free will choice to reject Him. Peter and the other apostles remained with Jesus, even though the teachings were difficult, because Peter and the other apostles understood that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What you appear to view as hardheadness is really a loving attachment to all that Jesus gave and every Christian is called to do the same.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It would seem, aftering having read several of your posts, that you that have some serious issues with the faith. You seem to have the idea that the Church is a democracy in which the laity can choose what they will follow, or not. Yet, the faith and the church is not, never has been, nor will it ever be a democracy–not so the laity, nor for the clergy, not even the Pope. Every Catholic is bound to follow all teachings of the faith, not just the teachings they agree with.

Recall Jesus (John 6) when giving the long Bread of Life discourse many people could not handle the Lord’s teachings and they left. Jesus did not call for them to come back, He did not change His teachings so that they would be able to accept what He said. No, Jesus let them go because they each had a free will choice to reject Him. Peter and the other apostles remained with Jesus, even though the teachings were difficult, because Peter and the other apostles understood that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What you appear to view as hardheadness is really a loving attachment to all that Jesus gave and every Christian is called to do the same.

You make me remember why I LOVE the Catholic Church. I do not have to rely on any human being to decide for me. The decision was made long ago by the Way, Truth and Life. He, Jesus, is God…Who is perfect!!! He cannot change because He is perfect already.

I have decided to follow Jesus.
The Cross before me, the world behind me.
Though none go with me, still I will follow.

God bless you, Irish Patrick, for listening to the Holy Spirit as you write in defense of His Holy Church.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Maybe its just as well if they leave the church.

How many millions of people who have never heard the Gospel are hidden from evangelization efforts because they are listed somewhere as “Catholic”?

How are we supposed to bring the gospel to the world if we don’t even know which people have heard it yet?

 

[Ridgerunner]

As it mentioned in the article, the Church lobbies the government saying “We represent X number of Catholics” which includes people like me who are officially recorded as a Catholic. Neither I, nor these Argentinians it seems, want to be included in that number when the Church is pushing for things we disagree with.

This does not immediatelystrike me as persuasive.

Parish registeries are not at all accurate, in both directions, and anybody who knows anything about them knows that. Catholic parish registeries are particularly that way, for reasons that would be of little relevance at this point.

Any government can pretty well figure out how many people consider themselves as belonging to a particular church simply by polling. That would give a lot more accurate information than church registeries would.