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mercygate
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It’s CM. This is a thread for people who hang around choir lofts, so y’all know about CM, LM, 87.87D, etc. Right?
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pnewton
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Don’t feel to bad. Every song here is liked by someone. Many are popular favorites. It may well be that some lists are a reflection of the one making the list more than the music on the list.
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mercygate
Guest
Keep prayin’, Betsy. For many, the Episcopal Church is a staging area for people who gradually up-church from “Jesus-and-me” Christianity toward the fullness of Catholic life. They can live a life that is Catholic in form and nearly complete in Catholic discipline, without having to take the big plunge. Then, one day, they wake up, realize that they really ARE fully Catholic (except for the execrable music in the Catholic Church) and that they HAVE to jump the Tiber.
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mercygate
Guest
I think it is more a reflection of the difference between people whose experience of liturgical music goes back 1500 years ond those whose experience of ANY music goes back no further than the day they were born.
I LOVE a lot of modern Church music/hymns: Think: Ralph Vaughan-Williams. But the invasion of sacred space with musical forms arising from secular folk/rock/broadway fonts shatters my nerves.
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree… I’m all for people adapting older melodies to making them equally as good or better than the original. (Bach was genius at doing it.) But if it ends up being worse, throw it away. I sang Copeland’s version of “Simple Gifts” for an encore at my recital a month ago. My audience loved the piece. Those who weren’t as versed in classical vocal repertoire (actually never really listen to classical music or vocal repertoire) never heard the melody or the piece before. When I told a couple of them at the reception following the recital that they probably heard it in “Lord of the Dance”, they were like, “Ugh!!!” The piece was like night and day to them.
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Sarabande
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Verdigirl - I think this is a practical thing to do, especially on the demographic you are working with. It looks like you are doing your best to implement the lost pieces of music back into your parish, which can be a feat. It does take time. It took me about two years to teach my students the chant responses until they knew it off the tops of their heads. So, I understand doing the 5-year plan. And it looks like you have support from your pastor. Sometimes, directors don’t have that support, and if the pastors or a committee don’t see immediate results, they throw any plans out the window and go back to what is comfortable and safe. It’s sad. But I’m very happy that you do have that support.
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pnewton
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That’s what I am saying. Also, I think a trained musician will tend to be more critical. Those who only know how to play a radio, or now days, an MP3 player, will tend to like music based on the emotion it evokes. Personally, I have a background in theology. I like the words of many of the great hymns. This is why I prefere English to Latin and am not so particular about the era. No doubt my opinions reflect on me as well.
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japhy
Guest
Wow. I like Gustav Holst, and Jupiter is a great piece, but I find that tune really difficult to sing. We’ve had “O God Beyond All Praising” as the recessional hymn a few times at my parish, and it’s been difficult for the congregation to sing it.
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Sarabande
Guest
I also love “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say”. We have done that often for funerals, when we can choose the music.
Thaxted is one of my favorite hymn melodies. I actually processed down the aisle to it on my wedding day and almost cry whenever we sing the hymn. The music and the words are so powerful. It’s very hard when I have to cantor and sing that too.
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Sarabande
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It is actually referred to “Thaxted” (town that Holst was born) in the sacred setting, since Jupiter is from his tone poem “The Planets” and we’re not actually singing to the secular version of it. Sort of like Beethoven’s Ode to Joy. Originally secular from his 9th Symphony, but set to sacred text.
(I’m not pointing this to you, as I can see you know this. I’m just pointing it out to others who may not know much about it.)
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mercygate
Guest
You are right. Thaxted is not easy for people to pick up on the first pass. The Confraternity of Penitents volunteer choir (experienced amateurs but not sight-singers) had trouble picking it up, even though I provided them all with a link to the midi file on Cyber Hymnal.
I think it’s worth the effort for congregational singing. It is a favorite tune in England. Familiarity breeds content. It is certainly no harder to sing than the absolutely ghastly, “I Have Loved You with an Everlasting Love” (Hey! Where’s THAT on our worst hymns list?).
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Sarabande
Guest
I believe this is very true. The experience is also manifested by the fact so many of our older sacred music is “performed” in halls, so those who don’t have much experience in their churches will associate it with performance and “oh, classical… that means it’s stuffy and boring” attitudes. And some of it really isn’t “classical” per say. I don’t consider chant and polyphony classical music. It’s in a realm all of its own, especially since they were specifically composed for Mass - not for classical concert halls. And they truthfully, don’t make much sense when heard in a hall. I appreciate it being “performed” because I do get spiritual prayer out of it, but it’s not full because it is not in a sacred setting.
With a little endurance and a slow re-introduction of this music in the settings with which the composers originally intended, that attitude can change.
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mercygate
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What tune for “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say?” I prefer Tallis’ Third Mode Melody to Kingsfold (used in Worship III).
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JimR-OCDS
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verdigirl
Of course this was the family Mass, which had many children, crying, laughing and what not. For those who desired the silent contemplative Mass, they would miserable at this Mass. They could however, go to the earlier Mass, which had the traditional choir singing, and the people sitting in silence.
One of the problems pastors have is the fact that they have to deal with parishes that are made up of all sorts of people, who are at all different levels spirituality, and of course musical taste.
Our pastor was good and providing a spiritual environment, that was conducive to everyone.
The early Mass, more traditional music and contemplative. The late Mass, which was the family Mass, with many families with children. It was loud, just on that basis alone. The Folk Group we had, filled the place with music of praise and it was the most attended Mass.
Fundamentalist will scream on how this is all wrong, and that everyone is to approach God as they do. For pastors serving parishes across America, this is not reality. I pray for the priest of America, because until I came into this forum, I never knew what a thankless job they had.
Jim
Yup, that was the favorite at my parish, when I was in the folk group. We used if as the recessional hymn. The pastor and the people loved it and yes, we played it with the bluegrass style that it was written for, although we didn’t have a banjo. Even though I use to play 5 -string banjo, I had given it up and wasn’t able to do it at the time.
Of course this was the family Mass, which had many children, crying, laughing and what not. For those who desired the silent contemplative Mass, they would miserable at this Mass. They could however, go to the earlier Mass, which had the traditional choir singing, and the people sitting in silence.
One of the problems pastors have is the fact that they have to deal with parishes that are made up of all sorts of people, who are at all different levels spirituality, and of course musical taste.
Our pastor was good and providing a spiritual environment, that was conducive to everyone.
The early Mass, more traditional music and contemplative. The late Mass, which was the family Mass, with many families with children. It was loud, just on that basis alone. The Folk Group we had, filled the place with music of praise and it was the most attended Mass.
Fundamentalist will scream on how this is all wrong, and that everyone is to approach God as they do. For pastors serving parishes across America, this is not reality. I pray for the priest of America, because until I came into this forum, I never knew what a thankless job they had.
Jim
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, that one!!!
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mercygate
Guest
I’m sighing for my old Episcopalian days, when we would add brass and tympani at Easter and strings and chimes at Christmas. We sang easy Mozart, Byrd, Tallis, Beethoven . . . y’know: the good ol’ boys.
We weren’t professional. You wouldn’t want us to cut a CD, but we were “good enough”. Namely, we sang on key and in time. We gave the best we had and we did not attempt music beyond our ability. We might not have been THE best, but we gave OUR best. Even the King’s College Chapel Choir can’t give more than that.
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree with you so much, Mercygate!!! You are right. It depends on how often it is sung in a parish. There was a website a couple years ago to a church which recorded them singing the Thaxted melody for their service or mass (I can’t remember which). The congregation were singing full voice, blowing the roof off. This was an American church.
I Have Loved You is difficult to sing for a congregation. I had to cantor it a couple weeks ago at my home parish (not the Cathedral) and the congregation had a hard time with it.
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mercygate
Guest
“I Have Loved You with an Everlasting Love” is a classical example of a set piece intended for professional solo singing in the Broadway style. They stick in in the hymnal and try to pass it off for congregational singing. It ends up being what it really is: A showcase for the cantor.
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benedictgal
Guest
Now that Advent is coming fast upon us, I remembered another hymn in the “worst” category: Preparing the Way of the Lord (if you sing it, it reads: Preeee-paring the Waaay of the Lord). It wasn’t pretty to hear.
There is also a Mass setting (Verdigirl, if you can help me find this one) that is commonly played at Mariachi Masses (and sounds equally bad on the organ) that intones the Kyrie in Spanish with a joyful, bouncy tune. The Kyrie is asking God for his mercy because we have sinned. It shouldn’t be sung to a tune that makes you sway and clap your hands.
It needs to be solemn.
One of the mariachi bands played at a wedding I was helping at and one of the songs they chose was “Spanish Eyes” for the preparation and incense of the gifts (and the couple). The priest sent the wedding coordinator up to the choir loft to tell them to stop.
There is also a Mass setting (Verdigirl, if you can help me find this one) that is commonly played at Mariachi Masses (and sounds equally bad on the organ) that intones the Kyrie in Spanish with a joyful, bouncy tune. The Kyrie is asking God for his mercy because we have sinned. It shouldn’t be sung to a tune that makes you sway and clap your hands.
It needs to be solemn.One of the mariachi bands played at a wedding I was helping at and one of the songs they chose was “Spanish Eyes” for the preparation and incense of the gifts (and the couple). The priest sent the wedding coordinator up to the choir loft to tell them to stop.
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japhy
Guest
Do you mean “Preeeeeepare ye the way of the Lord” from Godspell? Used as a hymn?!
How about, for the rest of the thread, when a “worst” song is suggested, a “replacement” song is provided? Along with the staple Advent songs like “O Come, O Come, Emmanuel” (or Veni, Veni, Emmanuel if you prefer the Latin) and the chant Rorate caeli, I enjoy “O Come, Divine Messiah”, although the French version (“Venez, Divin Messie”, the original) has much better words.
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