Non-biological "life"? Here on Earth?

[The_DNA_Rose]

In some sense, this is why your position borders on being pernicious. You are unwilling to seriously address the question of what human beings are or whether any legitimate constraints exist on human beings and yet are perfectly willing, apparently, to take full rein regarding what human beings will become.

You see no problem here?

Still have not read The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis, I gather?

You have no knowledge, of what I have, or have not read. However, to take what to read tips, from a person, who describes himself, as less complicated than an onion, would be considered quite illogical, from most persons.

You can trust me, because I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night…

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

Then any point you will try to make here is moot. Words without definitions mean nothing at all. If life isn’t a word that has a meaning that describes certain things, there is not use in it being used in the first place. Something with the quality “living” needs to possess the set of qualities that living things are defined to have. If it does not have those qualities, it does not have “life.” Since a virus does not possess all the characteristics of things considered “alive,” it is not alive. A dead organism is not considered living because it does not have all of the qualities required for the word “alive” to describe it. A virus is not considered “alive” because it doesn’t meet the criteria for the word “alive” to apply. If you think the characteristics for the quality “alive” should be changed, that’s your opinion, but until that definition is changed, viruses are not alive. All life is not like us, but because of the definition of the word “life” which we in fact came up with, we are also considered to have “life.”

If you change the question to what is life, and where did life come from, you will quickly find out, that there are 7 billion potential answers to this question, one for every human on Earth.

Thus I am proven correct, you are looking at one definition of life, written by one person, or group, and believing it as pure truth, this is illogical.

What is God will have many answers as well.

Which is the right one?

And are you sure?

You could say that all, parasites are not alive, this would be illogical as well, is a dog-tick alive, as it needs a host to complete it’s life cycle?

A simple yes or no will suffice?

Are you aware, that you can not survive, without other life forms, thus you are not alive, by your own definition?

 

[Peter_Plato]

You have no knowledge, of what I have, or have not read. However, to take what to read tips, from a person, who describes himself, as less complicated than an onion, would be considered quite illogical, from most persons.

You can trust me, because I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night…

The relative complexity of onion and human DNA was proven for you on that forum, I recall. Now merely because you cannot accept that human DNA is, indeed, less complex than the DNA of an onion seems to have more to do with your mental character than my credibility.

You do understand, I hope, that a conventional definition or description of any entity will not and, logically, CANNOT completely capture the essential nature of that entity, so a mere inability to describe or define the essential nature of a thing does not lead to the conclusion that the “essence” of a thing does not exist, but rather that it remains beyond our abilities to conceptually, linguistically or mathematically depict it?

Your or my inability to do or understand relative to another entity, or even with regard to ourselves ought not be taken as license to do whatever we will merely because we have convinced ourselves that we have powers where, in fact, it is our ignorance that was demonstrated.

At the very least, I am willing to admit my lack of complexity with tongue firmly planted in cheek. You, however, seem unable to admit any shortcoming while demonstrating at least a few.

 

[Kurisu35712]

If you change the question to what is life, and where did life come from, you will quickly find out, that there are 7 billion potential answers to this question, one for every human on Earth.

Then you are using the philosophical definition of the word life, not the biological one. Biologically, the virus is not alive. Philosophically, ask Peter Plato.

Thus I am proven correct, you are looking at one definition of life, written by one person, or group, and believing it as pure truth, this is illogical.

It isn’t illogical. That’s how words work. The purpose of a word is to convey information. Biologically, life has a specific definition with specific criteria attached, and if a thing does not possess those criteria, the word life cannot apply biologically. If you aren’t using the biological and scientific definition for the word life, I have nothing more to say to you, since obviously we aren’t saying the same things.

What is God will have many answers as well.

Which is the right one?

And are you sure?

Unlike the word live or the categorical state “alive,” all that God is cannot be confined to a single definition or answer. He is simple, yet in His simplicity He is deeper than anything we can ever know. He did tell us, however, that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth in matters of faith and doctrine, so if my answer is in alignment with that of the Catholic Church, I can be certain I am correct.

You could say that all, parasites are not alive, this would be illogical as well, is a dog-tick alive, as it needs a host to complete it’s life cycle?

Except that a parasite does in fact possess the qualities needed to be considered alive in a biological sense. From Wikipedia:

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive. Life is considered a characteristic of something that exhibits all or most of the following traits:[38][41][42]

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.

Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells — the basic units of life.

Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.[38]

Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

Adaptation: The ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors.

Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.

Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.[43][44] or "with an error rate below the sustainability threshold."[44]

A parasitic organism maintains homeostasis, is made up of at least one cell (which has a definition of its own), metabolizes energy through the processing of compounds, grows, adapts to its environment, responds to stimuli, and is capable of reproduction, either sexually or asexually. A dog tick reproduces sexually and lays eggs. It is parasitic because of it’s relationship with dogs, which is uses as a food source and a breeding grounds. It does not reproduce with the dog, it reproduces with the gametes of another dog tick. So either way, it is not in any way comparable to a virus because a virus does not reproduce, it uses a host cell to replicate. It is not able to reproduce either sexually or asexually, and as a result is not considered alive. It is not a cell. It does not metabolize energy nor does it have the capacity to metabolize anything, it does not grow, it does not adapt. It does not respond to external stimuli. It simply is. It exists. And we do not know why that is.

A simple yes or no will suffice?

It will not suffice because you do not seem to understand what science means when it considers an organism to be “alive.” If you do not understand the definition, yes and no will not help you to understand my point. However, my answer is yes, with the understanding that a dog tick is alive regardless of whether it is able to find a host animal. It may not be alive for a particularly long time in that instance, but it is alive until the point that it is dead.

Are you aware, that you can not survive, without other life forms, thus you are not alive, by your own definition?

I in fact was not aware of this! Partly because that wasn’t the definition I used for alive. I would appreciate it if you did not put words into my mouth. You are correct. I cannot survive without other life forms and their effects on my existence. But I am still alive. If I die because I never encounter another human past the point that I was born, I was still alive until that point that my cells no longer functioned.

(continued)

 

[Kurisu35712]

You are looking at this at the level of a complex organism. Life is determined partially at the cellular level because cells are one of the requirements for “life.” If I were to die, it would be because something that is keeping my body in homeostasis ceased functioning correctly. As a result, the cells that make up my vital organs and every part of myself are not receiving the compounds they need to remain alive. If my heart stops pumping blood, my cells will all die because they will be unable to receive oxygen, which they require to synthesize ATP which they use as an energy source. If my lungs stop functioning, or if oxygen is no longer available in my environment, I will die because my cells cannot produce energy. If I drink too much water, which is a molecule my cells use to regulate their external and internal environment, my electrolyte balance will be thrown off and my cells will become dehydrated and die. The ionic imbalance may cause my neurons to function incorrectly and my other organs will then fail, which will eventually cause my cells to be deprived of oxygen. We die when our cells fail to produce energy. There are many ways this can come about, but the effect is always the same. We die. Our cells age, and if they are too old to continue reproducing without DNA transcription errors, they will be unable to function correctly. As a result, we die of old age because our cells are no longer able to reproduce, and our bodies are no longer able to produce energy because our cells don’t work.

Until my cells stop being able to produce energy, however, I am alive. A virus cannot produce energy. A virus cannot be prevented from producing energy. A virus is not alive. A virus cannot die. A virus can prevent my cells from producing ATP however, for example by filling a cell with so much of the viruses own genetic material that the cell ruptures and is thus dead.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You are looking at this at the level of a complex organism. Life is determined partially at the cellular level because cells are one of the requirements for “life.” If I were to die, it would be because something that is keeping my body in homeostasis ceased functioning correctly. As a result, the cells that make up my vital organs and every part of myself are not receiving the compounds they need to remain alive. If my heart stops pumping blood, my cells will all die because they will be unable to receive oxygen, which they require to synthesize ATP which they use as an energy source. If my lungs stop functioning, or if oxygen is no longer available in my environment, I will die because my cells cannot produce energy. If I drink too much water, which is a molecule my cells use to regulate their external and internal environment, my electrolyte balance will be thrown off and my cells will become dehydrated and die. The ionic imbalance may cause my neurons to function incorrectly and my other organs will then fail, which will eventually cause my cells to be deprived of oxygen. We die when our cells fail to produce energy. There are many ways this can come about, but the effect is always the same. We die. Our cells age, and if they are too old to continue reproducing without DNA transcription errors, they will be unable to function correctly. As a result, we die of old age because our cells are no longer able to reproduce, and our bodies are no longer able to produce energy because our cells don’t work.

Until my cells stop being able to produce energy, however, I am alive. A virus cannot produce energy. A virus cannot be prevented from producing energy. A virus is not alive. A virus cannot die. A virus can prevent my cells from producing ATP however, for example by filling a cell with so much of the viruses own genetic material that the cell ruptures and is thus dead.

Which also leads back to Hee_Zen’s question: when is a dog not a dog. I say a dog is a dog no matter how many limbs it has lost, until it dies. Then it is not a dog. However, humans have immortal souls, but that is another topic.

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

Then you are using the philosophical definition of the word life, not the biological one. Biologically, the virus is not alive. Philosophically, ask Peter Plato.

It isn’t illogical. That’s how words work. The purpose of a word is to convey information. Biologically, life has a specific definition with specific criteria attached, and if a thing does not possess those criteria, the word life cannot apply biologically. If you aren’t using the biological and scientific definition for the word life, I have nothing more to say to you, since obviously we aren’t saying the same things.

Unlike the word live or the categorical state “alive,” all that God is cannot be confined to a single definition or answer. He is simple, yet in His simplicity He is deeper than anything we can ever know. He did tell us, however, that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth in matters of faith and doctrine, so if my answer is in alignment with that of the Catholic Church, I can be certain I am correct.

Except that a parasite does in fact possess the qualities needed to be considered alive in a biological sense. From Wikipedia:

A parasitic organism maintains homeostasis, is made up of at least one cell (which has a definition of its own), metabolizes energy through the processing of compounds, grows, adapts to its environment, responds to stimuli, and is capable of reproduction, either sexually or asexually. A dog tick reproduces sexually and lays eggs. It is parasitic because of it’s relationship with dogs, which is uses as a food source and a breeding grounds. It does not reproduce with the dog, it reproduces with the gametes of another dog tick. So either way, it is not in any way comparable to a virus because a virus does not reproduce, it uses a host cell to replicate. It is not able to reproduce either sexually or asexually, and as a result is not considered alive. It is not a cell. It does not metabolize energy nor does it have the capacity to metabolize anything, it does not grow, it does not adapt. It does not respond to external stimuli. It simply is. It exists. And we do not know why that is.

It will not suffice because you do not seem to understand what science means when it considers an organism to be “alive.” If you do not understand the definition, yes and no will not help you to understand my point. However, my answer is yes, with the understanding that a dog tick is alive regardless of whether it is able to find a host animal. It may not be alive for a particularly long time in that instance, but it is alive until the point that it is dead.

I in fact was not aware of this! Partly because that wasn’t the definition I used for alive. I would appreciate it if you did not put words into my mouth. You are correct. I cannot survive without other life forms and their effects on my existence. But I am still alive. If I die because I never encounter another human past the point that I was born, I was still alive until that point that my cells no longer functioned.

(continued)

Again, viruses are alive, they are different than you, and fulfill a very important role in the ecosystem, regardless of whether this role is understood or not.

Are you aware, that if you do not kill, to eat, then you will die. Thus you are dependent upon other organisms in order to survive, just like the virus. Even a fruit, just picked from a tree is alive, or was until the vegetarian, who wants to believe that they do not kill anything, ripped the fruit from the tree, ate the fruit, do you think that trees like that? So you are not as different in your dependence on other species as you might want to believe.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Are you aware, that if you do not kill, to eat, then you will die. Thus you are dependent upon other organisms in order to survive, just like the virus. Even a fruit, just picked from a tree is alive, or was until the vegetarian, who wants to believe that they do not kill anything, ripped the fruit from the tree, ate the fruit, do you think that trees like that? .

Oh please. Trees don’t care, but they need animals to eat the fruit. The fruit is for spreading the seed, silly, so they can perpetuate their species.

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

Oh please. Trees don’t care, but they need animals to eat the fruit. The fruit is for spreading the seed, silly, so they can perpetuate their species.

Prove, that orange trees do not care that humans pick all of their fruit, squeeze out the juice, and grind the seeds into compost.

Prove that mother cows approve of their offspring being slaughtered for veal, after being force fed to make them fatter for slaughter.

That is philosophy.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Prove, that orange trees do not care that humans pick all of their fruit, squeeze out the juice, and grind the seeds into compost.

Prove that mother cows approve of their offspring being slaughtered for veal, after being force fed to make them fatter for slaughter.

That is philosophy.

The orange tree doesn’t know what happened to it’s fruit. It doesn’t have consciousness. It doesn’t know if the fruit fell to the ground or got shaken off the tree. But it is to its benefit if a human or a bird or other animal ate the fruit and passed the seeds into the earth to reseed. Actually humans are very beneficlal to an orange tree. They take care of it, water it, defend it from insects and make sure that more orange trees will grow.

In the same way, a domesticated animal like a cow is feed, given shelter and until it is slaughtered has a pretty good life, except in some cases. Once a cow or a dog or other non-human animal quits nursing and the young are taken away, they don’t give it another thought. They definitely don’t mourn over it. Dogs are bred to sell their puppies. Once the puppy is weaned and is taken away, the dogs forget about it.

Animals and plants aren’t human.

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

The orange tree doesn’t know what happened to it’s fruit. It doesn’t have consciousness. It doesn’t know if the fruit fell to the ground or got shaken off the tree. But it is to its benefit if a human or a bird or other animal ate the fruit and passed the seeds into the earth to reseed. Actually humans are very beneficlal to an orange tree. They take care of it, water it, defend it from insects and make sure that more orange trees will grow.

In the same way, a domesticated animal like a cow is feed, given shelter and until it is slaughtered has a pretty good life, except in some cases. Once a cow or a dog or other non-human animal quits nursing and the young are taken away, they don’t give it another thought. They definitely don’t mourn over it. Dogs are bred to sell their puppies. Once the puppy is weaned and is taken away, the dogs forget about it.

Animals and plants aren’t human.

Google veal atrocities, then get back to me.

habee.hubpages.com/hub/The-Truth-About-Veal

The point is that without food, you can not live, same as the virus.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Google veal atrocities, then get back to me.

habee.hubpages.com/hub/The-Truth-About-Veal

The point is that without food, you can not live, same as the virus.

No you get back to me about the orange tree.

I don’t know if a virus is living or dead. They seem to be alive to me, if they can multiply and feed off things. Are you for protecting their young?

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

No you get back to me about the orange tree.

I don’t know if a virus is living or dead. They seem to be alive to me, if they can multiply and feed off things. Are you for protecting their young?

The virus needs a host, just like you need the host food organism. Without completing the cycle, both cease to be.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The virus needs a host, just like you need the host food organism. Without completing the cycle, both cease to be.

By the way, how do you feel about killing flies and their young?

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

By the way, how do you feel about killing flies and their young?

And this has what to do with, Non-biological “life”? Here on Earth?

Please stay on topic if you can?

However , I will bite, sort of. Why do you ask me, how do you feel about killing flies and their young?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And this has what to do with, Non-biological “life”? Here on Earth?

Please stay on topic if you can?

However , I will bite, sort of. Why do you ask me, how do you feel about killing flies and their young?

Because you seem so protective of fruit trees and viruses. I just wondered if you drew the line at maggots.

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

Because you seem so protective of fruit trees and viruses.

All life deserves respect, including alien life.

What does the Pope know?

Viruses, have a purpose, everything does.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

All life deserves respect, including alien life.

What does the Pope know?

Viruses, have a purpose, everything does.

I’m through with this thread. Have a nice day.

 

[The_DNA_Rose]

I’m through with this thread. Have a nice day.

I know, I said such an awful thing, how could I say or believe such a thing, as “All life deserves respect”

Shame on me…!

 

[Hee_Zen]

Computer code does exactly as it is programmed to do, no more no less. It is not adaptive and does not change in the same way as genetic information can.

If only you would actually investigate your claim, you would realize how wrong you are.