non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[justasking4]

There is obviously more than one layer to the truth being proclaimed by the Apostle John, in Chapter 12 of Revelation.

What I heard you addressing is that according to YOU, there is absolutley NO biblical evidence to support the Church’s teaching on Mary’s Assumption into Heaven. Raymond Brown does not say that there is no Bibilcal Evidence. That is YOUR false conclusion.

Even according to Raymod Brown, there IS Biblical evidence for this position. However, Brown also sees in these verses another interpretation which refers to the Church.

Yet, Brown would also understand that Mary is the First Model of the Church. Her “Fiat”, her “Yes” to God is our Yes to God. Her overshadowing of the Holy Spirit is also our overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. The Christ being conceived in her womb is also Christ being conceived in us through the Holy Eucharist. To say Mary is in some way also to say Church.

When Raymond Brown says what he says, he understands ALL of this truth, not just the part that seems on the surface of his words to support your false claim.

I can still hear the truth echoed down from John until now that Mary was assumed into Heaven. You are comfortable ignoring this truth, the fact of which Ray Brown does not even disagree with.

Gene

I thought there was no evidence for it but evidently you make a better case for it. I need to do more study and dialogue with catholics on this before i open my mouth…

 

[justasking4]

I don’t know that there was wicked evil done by the Inquisition…in fact many accounts that I have read say that people who were busted by the civil authorities often appealed to the Inquisition because they knew they would be more lenient.

And of course,while you’re on this binge here be sure to wash your hands of your own doctrinal heritage where similar and worse things were committed by Protestants against Catholics. In fact, right here in this country the Salem witch trials were not carried out by Catholics but by the Puritans…who were…(wait for it.) Protestants. The persecutions of my own Irish ancestors by Protestants led to a very long and difficult time of civil unrest in Ireland, and the persecution of other Irish Catholics here in the U.S. led to the San Patricios unit of Irish Americans fighting for the Mexicans in that war. I won’t waste time on “the Know Nothings” or anything else, but let’s not try to pretend that your own historical ties leaves you any less tainted. If you use that to deny trusting the Catholic Church then you have no basis upon which to trust any of the n-C derivatives. Far more easily than the reformers and their modern step children. Their glaring errors disqualify them across the board in most cases. Their misconduct over time has been about the same as some Catholics.

You bring up some excellent points. There is problably far more evil in protestant churches than most people realize.

 

[climer97007]

You bring up some excellent points. There is problably far more evil in protestant churches than most people realize.

I think you seem to look at these conversations in a sort of hyper literal sort of way. You might need to step back a bit, as your recent posts seem to suggest you are doing, and examine this.

For example, this last point made was not focussed on trying to convince you of how evil the Protestant Church was. That was a simple surface element of the statement. The deeper meaning of that point, the more important part, is that it is not the sinlessness of a member of the Church that makes it “Holy” or “True”. What makes the Catholic Church Holy and True is Christ Himself.

The Devil is the only one interested in using the sins of anyone against the Church. God is surely not in that business.

Gene

 

[J_C]

You bring up some excellent points. There is problably far more evil in protestant churches than most people realize.

not sure it is “evil” but rather just people being people. there is plenty of blame to go around. all sides have been cruel at times.

by the way JA4 I want to be early to compliment you on your good tone. you’re setting a very good example that we all could follow. thanks.

 

[guanophore]

What i was addressing is that the church has not always thought that the woman of Revelations 12 was Mary. There are other ways to look at this that actually make a better fit than Mary.

You are in error, ja4. Individual scholars an theologians do not speak for the Church. That is the job of the Magesterium.

How do the 7 sacraments save you?
In Colossians 2:13-14 it speaks to the effect that all our sins have been forgiven and taken out of the way. Why would purgatory be necessary given this fact?

We are saved by grace, through faith. Sacraments are channels through which that grace flows. When met with faith, they have salvific effects.

The temporal punishments of sins are not always removed. For example, we see the thief on the cross promised salvation by Jesus, so we can know that his sins were forgiven. However, Jesus did not take him when He left, but the thief remained on the cross suffering for many hours, then had to suffer his legs being broken on top of that.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You bring up some excellent points. There is problably far more evil in protestant churches than most people realize.

Hey, I like the new JA4!
Except now you set a new standard in humility that is starting to look saintly and might be contagious. I really hope we didn’t push you too far in the direction of Tradition where you looked into the banned forms of mortification such as self flagellation.

Protestants are not intrinsically evil or any different than any other human being. No one is evil - all are called to salvation. We are all placed here together in the womb of creation and are struggling for our eternal lives to be born into the Kingdom. We need to learn from each other, correct each other and love each other. Jesus does all the heavy labor through mother Church.

James

 

[guanophore]

Protestants are not intrinsically evil or any different than any other human being. No one is evil - all are called to salvation. We are all placed here together in the womb of creation and are struggling for our eternal lives to be born into the Kingdom. We need to learn from each other, correct each other and love each other. Jesus does all the heavy labor through mother Church.

James

I have always wondered about this passage:

Matt 7:11-12
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus is talking to the Jews. Why does He say they are evil? That is probably off topic.

I agree, though the evil that happens in Protestant Churches is no different in quantity or quality that what happens in Catholic. The Evil One wishes to destroy unity and service to God no matter where it is found.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have always wondered about this passage:

Matt 7:11-12
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus is talking to the Jews. Why does He say they are evil? That is probably off topic.

I agree, though the evil that happens in Protestant Churches is no different in quantity or quality that what happens in Catholic. The Evil One wishes to destroy unity and service to God no matter where it is found.

My New American Bible translates it as: “If you with **all your sins **know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to anyone who asks Him!”

This is just a lesson on the power of prayer even for a humanity that is prone to sin and is in sin. It tells us the persevering prayer of sinful humanity receives a divine response because of the generosity of God. This relates to the same consistent teaching of the power of prayer that is mirrored in Mk 11:24 and Lk 11: 9-13.

James

 

[Church_Militant]

Maybe you missed some things when you were comparing catholic teachings with Scriptures. Lets take a simple dogma of your church-- The Assumption of Mary

. Its not mentioned in the Scriptures so you have nothing to compare it with. Secondly, its not mentioned for centuries. This alone is a clear indicator that your church does not always ground its teachings in Scripture. You keep harping upon that but again, as I said before, since there is no basis for your belief in Sola Scriptura, and that making it an unscriptural and errant new wind of doctrines of men, that means that Christians are in no way bound to follow it. Following that, there is no reason to use the absence of a belief from the Bible (in this case the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin) as a criteria for consideration.

The fact is that this is not the only belief that took a while to come to light. (I believe that the divinity of Jesus also became an issue that was not resolved until that same time.) Does that mean then that since it didn’t come up until the 4th century, that it wasn’t something that the Church believed prior to that time? The fact that the Deity of Christ is an implicit teaching of scripture, (just as the Trinity) means that even the Aassumption was not clarified until then.

With Sola Scriptura rejected, the truth becomes much much easier to discern.

 

[Church_Militant]

You bring up some excellent points. There is problably far more evil in protestant churches than most people realize.

Thank you for that concession.