Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?

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Even more impressive if you are a youngster. Obviously raised very well.
Thank you once again. I can’t claim this for myself, so I thank my parents and God Almighty.
Had my spats with gotquestions on facebook before for their usual anti Catholic position. To their credit they have not yet blocked me like another ministry recently did
Impressive. I would have assumed otherwise, noting how some of these ministries and organizations can’t really be challenged, or else they get a little edgy or offended.
 
I wonder what they would do to a Jehovah’s Witness or to a Mormon, who they disagree with on doctrine even more. 🤷
If they don’t outright ban us, typically they’re impose segregation rules of where the “out” group cannot post places, cannot correct misconceptions of their faith, and (sad to say) are often treated quite poorly.
 
If they don’t outright ban us, typically they’re impose segregation rules of where the “out” group cannot post places, cannot correct misconceptions of their faith, and (sad to say) are often treated quite poorly.
That’s unfortunate. At least CAF is open and not like… that. 😃
 
Even more impressive if you are a youngster. Obviously raised very well.

Had my spats with gotquestions on facebook before for their usual anti Catholic position. To their credit they have not yet blocked me like another ministry recently did.

God Bless
When I was growing up, I was all over GotQuestions, CARM, and Gospel Coalition to defend my Protestant beliefs against Catholicism.

Of course, I ended up finding out I agree with Catholic teaching far more than Protestant teaching. It takes some humility and willingness to listen to the other side, of course. After being given some very well thought out explanations of certain Catholic doctrines, I was eventually drawn to Catholicism. Honestly, all the Biblical social justice I saw and heard Catholics doing, and that they’re consistently pro-life, is what initially drew me in.
 
When I was growing up, I was all over GotQuestions, CARM, and Gospel Coalition to defend my Protestant beliefs against Catholicism.

Of course, I ended up finding out I agree with Catholic teaching far more than Protestant teaching. It takes some humility and willingness to listen to the other side, of course. After being given some very well thought out explanations of certain Catholic doctrines, I was eventually drawn to Catholicism. Honestly, all the Biblical social justice I saw and heard Catholics doing, and that they’re consistently pro-life, is what initially drew me in.
I know what you mean. I had several gotcha moments that opened my eyes to the Church. This after i was certain i was going to expose it for being evil, insidious and pagan lol . Great catholic apologists have been instrumental for so many of us
 
I totally get what you’re saying, but let’s look at the Orthodox church which holds similar beliefs on our Lady. Is that Church any less of a Church for not officially dogmatizing these things? For any uncomfortable protestants looking our way, they may break to that side to avoid being forced to believe things that appear to** them **to be excessive and non essential.
I would ask anyone this question. On matters of faith and morals, WHO according to scripture and tradition, has the credentials and the Divine authority to determine for us, what is essential vs non essential beliefs?

Their answer to that question would be most instructive on how to proceed 😉
L:
Protestants leaning our way and struggling with Marian dogmas totally have my sympathy. My message to them is continue searching and praying and God will help you with this but it may take some time to become clear. The Lord be with you.

Pax
agreed
 
  • What I have learned is that this seems to be true with OT Hebrew. For example Genesis 14:14 uses the word: ’ā·ḥîw which is translated for different meanings of relationship.
New International Version
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.

International Standard Version
When Abram heard that his nephew had been taken prisoner, he gathered together 318 of his trained men, who had been born in his household, and they went out in pursuit as far as Dan.

biblehub.com/hebrew/achiv_251.htm
  • In the NT Greek there are words for kinsman/cousin/relative. For example Luke 1:36 uses the term syngenis to mean cousin or relative
New International Version
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

International Standard Version
And listen! Elizabeth, your relative, has herself conceived a son in her old age, this woman who was rumored to be barren is in her sixth month.

biblehub.com/greek/sungenis_4773.htm
  • However in Mark 6:3 the words adelphos and adelphai are used to mean brother and sisters and always mean brother and sisters.
New International Version
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

International Standard Version
This is the builder, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, isn’t it? His sisters are here with us, aren’t they?" And they were offended by him.

biblehub.com/greek/adelphos_80.htm
biblehub.com/greek/adelphai_79.htm

What I see from looking at the verses on BibleHub.com is that every time Jesus “brothers” are mentioned, the Greek word is similar to the word adelphos. A word like sungeneis or syngenis which means kinsmen is never used.

I do think that there is evidence in the early centuries that it was believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin despite evidence in the Bible such as:

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

And in Psalm 69 it is written
8 I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

In John 2, the Apostles attribute Psalm 69:9 to Jesus when He overturned the money changers tables.
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me."

I don’t feel that there is conclusive evidence to determine whether Mary had other children. It has never been a concern for me and something I rarely thought about until recent studies. What confuses me the most is why this makes a difference for Christianity at all.
You are right, there isn’t conclusive evidence in the Bible itself but Catholics also have the Tradition of the Apostles and the Holy Spirit to direct Her in such matters.

Why would Jesus have allowed His mother to follow Him into Jerusalem knowing the danger He was facing? I can not see a good son putting his mother through such an ordeal unless She was to play an important part in Salvation History. A good son would have seen to it that she stayed with one of her other children. I believe that Jesus intended for His Mother to be the Mother of all of us. I believe that She understood Her role and with courage followed Her Son to the cross.

Also, (forgive me if this sounds terribly irreverent) What kind of ego would Joseph had to have in order to have sex with the Mother of God? Joseph is portrayed as a reverent, dedicated man. It does not make sense that he would have had that kind a ego. Even though marital sex is a gift from God, She was the new Eve, the Ark, the Christ Bearer, the Queen of the Angels no decent man would then or now approach such a holy woman in that manner.
 
You are right, there isn’t conclusive evidence in the Bible itself but Catholics also have the Tradition of the Apostles and the Holy Spirit to direct Her in such matters.

Why would Jesus have allowed His mother to follow Him into Jerusalem knowing the danger He was facing? I can not see a good son putting his mother through such an ordeal unless She was to play an important part in Salvation History. A good son would have seen to it that she stayed with one of her other children. I believe that Jesus intended for His Mother to be the Mother of all of us. I believe that She understood Her role and with courage followed Her Son to the cross.

Also, (forgive me if this sounds terribly irreverent) What kind of ego would Joseph had to have in order to have sex with the Mother of God? Joseph is portrayed as a reverent, dedicated man. It does not make sense that he would have had that kind a ego. Even though marital sex is a gift from God, She was the new Eve, the Ark, the Christ Bearer, the Queen of the Angels no decent man would then or now approach such a holy woman in that manner.
Greetings.

I thought the exact same way when i was a protestant. Look at the scriptures she quotes as “evidence” of our lady having relations and it seemed clear to me as well.

If i wrote a book now and shot it to the moon, only to be recovered two thousand years from now, the people who recovered said book might have a problem properly interpreting 100% of the intended message. By that time meanings of words change, cultures change, idioms change and so on and so forth.

You bring up a good point about Joseph that i never really considered. I think if you polled a thousand good protestant men and asked them if they were in Joseph’s position would they have had relations with Mary, all 1000 of them would have said no.
 
I would ask anyone this question. On matters of faith and morals, WHO according to scripture and tradition, has the credentials and the Divine authority to determine for us, what is essential vs non essential beliefs?

Their answer to that question would be most instructive on how to proceed 😉

agreed
They would say the Holy Spirit if they were protestant. Not sure what Orthodox would say
 
They would say the Holy Spirit if they were protestant. Not sure what Orthodox would say
The question should rather be asked, which Protestant (and I don’t mean the weird ones) denomination has an ESSENTIAL teaching outside of the Nicene Creed. I think we have a different idea of essential. Everything a Protestant believes to be essential (Nicene Creed), a Catholic also believes to be, but it is not true the other way around.
 
The question should rather be asked, which Protestant (and I don’t mean the weird ones) denomination has an ESSENTIAL teaching outside of the Nicene Creed. I think we have a different idea of essential. Everything a Protestant believes to be essential (Nicene Creed), a Catholic also believes to be, but it is not true the other way around.
I think protestantism as a whole is not summed up in the creed…it’s summed up in Romans 10:9.
 
Uhm, interesting point. I always loved that verse. No “buts” or “ands”. It’s right to the point.
Is it going to far to say it is not only the summation of Protestantism but also is the very essence of Christianity? Not only verse 9 but most of chapter 10.
 
They would say the Holy Spirit if they were protestant. Not sure what Orthodox would say
Then the follow up question would be, Is the HS that confused that He leads sooooo many people into sooooo many divisions and conflicting opinions on faith and morals?

What does scripture say and tradition confirms, is the pillar and foundation of truth?
 
Is it going to far to say it is not only the summation of Protestantism but also is the very essence of Christianity? Not only verse 9 but most of chapter 10.
Can’t say I disagree. But making a statement like this would direct one into a whole other “conversation”.
 
Not sure I understand…what’s the point in the dogmas or the point of objecting to them?

Just out of curiosity is that what you think heaven will be like? The book of revelation seems to paint a different picture. I think we are going to be put to work, just so much easier in a glorified state.
Finally replying to this after some while. I rather and sincerely wonder if Mary even knows what’s going on currently?

And what parts points to a different heaven? Refer me please? Heaven is supposed to be well … heaven. But I will take a look.
 
Finally replying to this after some while. I rather and sincerely wonder if Mary even knows what’s going on currently?

And what parts points to a different heaven? Refer me please? Heaven is supposed to be well … heaven. But I will take a look.
The book of Hebrews says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Pretty sure she does know whats going on. As far as her intercession, its occuring only if God wills it.

Revelation 5 talks about the 24 elders carrying the prayers of the saints in heaven. This is believed to be 12 OT patriarchs and the NT apostles. So it looks like perhaps some sort of chores will be carried out. All though im certain it’s not going to be like bagging groceries at Walmart. Im sure its enjoyable.
 
I think protestantism as a whole is not summed up in the creed…it’s summed up in Romans 10:9.
*Rom 10:
9 if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. *

As an observation, It’s the first part of that statement “confess Jesus is Lord” that many people in actuality fail in .

Example:

**If **Jesus is really and truly Lord, then a person who confesses that, does whatever Jesus commands. THAT’s where people THINK they confess something when in actuality, they don’t do what they confess.

Or as James says (paraphrased) dont “tell” me you have faith, show me you have faith. A said faith is a dead faith

Same with what someone “confesses”

If a confession doesn’t demonstrate (lived out)what someone confesses, that confession is a dead confession, or maybe severey lacking in many elements of what it should have.,
 
Rom 10:
9 if you confess
with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As an observation, It’s the first part of that statement “confess Jesus is Lord” that many people in actuality fail in .

Example:

**If **Jesus is really and truly Lord, then a person who confesses that, does whatever Jesus commands. THAT’s where people THINK they confess something when in actuality, they don’t do what they confess.

Or as James says (paraphrased) dont “tell” me you have faith, show me you have faith. A said faith is a dead faith

Same with what someone “confesses”

If a confession doesn’t demonstrate (lived out)what someone confesses, that confession is a dead confession, or maybe severey lacking in many elements of what it should have.,
Right, catechesis and true desire to pick up our cross daily must follow.

How many of these conversions at Billy Graham type events are genuine? I guess only God knows.
 
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